Found Deceased AZ - Isabella Grogan-Cannella, 8, Bullhead City, 2 September 2014 - #4

[jojo87]

Poop I must have missed this latest posting it seems its already been deleted. I took myself out of the groups because it was getting too heated over the weekend.
I really can't understand why someone who has lost her child would post in these groups to defend her IMO indefensible actions. Surely it would be a better idea to seek legal representation and speak through a lawyer or to do as LE asked and not talk at all. It is my opinion that these various things that it appears TG is saying will only benefit the defense if it comes to trial and she is called as a witness.

 

[Magdalyn]

anyone can join

Agreed. But I don't think we can discuss.

Social Networks

Regarding Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, and other social networking or blog websites: Links may be used to direct posters to view something on a social networking page. But postings on social networking sites are not considered fact; they are rumor. Copying and pasting, or taking screen caps, directly from these pages is not allowed. Paraphrasing is okay. (Exception: If the Twitter or Facebook post belongs to a verified news station, it may be copied. But a link should still be provided.)

Also, social networking pages may only be linked if they are directly related to a case, i.e. the victim or suspect. We don't want to post to someone's mother, brother, employer, milkman, or postal carrier just because they know the main player. We also NEVER link to minor's pages (unless they are the victim). And be sure that the page actually belongs to the person being discussed. Do not link to someone if you are not 100% sure it is the correct person. And if a social networking is set to private and you get in the back way, you may not post what you find. Private means private!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?65798-Etiquette-amp-Information

 

[skibaboo]

Just so I'm clear, is it still considered rumor on FB if TG is the one who's posting and talking about the case? Because, she is, as of 3 minutes ago. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1470837193192581&set=gm.742193149175835&type=1&theater (please remove if this is not allowed)

That made me feel really sad

I'm still here too, not leaving Bella, just out of much to say until we know more. Hannah Grahams case is compelling if anyone wants to come over.

 

[jojo87]

its all there its a non bashing thread n the page owner added all tg quotes n pictures she shared with the group ........https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1470837193192581&set=gm.742193149175835&type=1&theater .........thats where tg talked n this is where the page owner recapped all tg quotes .......https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.742288555832961&type=1

Thanks the links won't work for me could you link to the group home page it would be nicer to be part of a non bashing group (apart from here of course).

 

[jojo87]

That made me feel really sad

I'm still here too, not leaving Bella, just out of much to say until we know more. Hannah Grahams case is compelling if anyone wants to come over.

Been reading over there it's scary. Websleuths is the place to go for detailed info on missing persons. So much info that isn't discussed a lot in news updates. Haven't posted because its moving so fast.

 

[Native Pride]

Thanks the links won't work for me could you link to the group home page it would be nicer to be part of a non bashing group (apart from here of course).

i cant promise u the bashing went away as i doubt it did the page owner did not allow it on those 2 threads n did not allow for the hrs of the 3rd week bella went missing but i bet it will be back today if u cant c in its because its closed to the public now u would need to join xxxxxxxxx

 

[vasportsmom]

Agreed. But I don't think we can discuss.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?65798-Etiquette-amp-Information

This! We really can't discuss private groups and I would hate to see the thread locked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ontario Mom]

Sorry, I wasn't aware the page was made private or I'd have never mentioned it.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I don't believe this to be true. I can let LE in without a warrant and they could bag evidence from my husband who was at work. A roommate can do the same. Only one person needs to give LE permission. If that roommate has their own room then that might be different but the common areas and others personal space who gave consent can be searched. If the roommate isn't on the lease or the owner I also believe they are allowed to search. MOO.

Relevant Change.org petition: http://www.change.org/p/terry-s-law-enter-home-of-any-missing-child-without-a-search-warrant

 

[MsMarple]

bbm



IN missing child cases, Police are contacted within:
-----------------------------------------------------
19% :Immediately.
25% : 1.0 hour.
40% : 2.0 hours.
68% : 4.5 hours.
86% : 24.0 hours.
99% :>24.0 hours.

Certainly, they might have been "cleaning up" the scene, but there is nothing unusual in the delay in contacting Police.

The "hour , hour and a half" delay (approximated by RF when asked during the 911 call) from when TG was notified and RF contacted 911 is not unusual by any stretch.

View attachment 59684

It was RF who contacted 911. We do not know all of what TG may have told LE, I could not find that information.

Not mentioning JJR during the 911 call raises a red flag, indeed. It could be interpreted two ways:

1) RF did not want to implicate JJR (some reports indicate they are cousins / related) could be involved.
2) RF truly believed JJR was not involved (they reported to LE they did not seen him 'downstairs' when they left for Wal-Mart).

Either is possible, but most would believe the first interpretation is closer to actuality.

rbbm

Your statements are a little misleading and for the benefit of readers not familiar with the sourced paper I'd like to clarify a couple of things as it's my goto reference on child abduction murders and I'm familiar with it.

The study is an analysis of data collected from 735 cases of child abduction murders. Its purpose was to provide LE and SAR teams with historical information in order to help them optimize their procedures when a child goes missing. While the analysis wasn't specifically intended to profile per se, the authors found there were distinct differences between child abduction murders and child murders.

Common sense says the longer the delay in reporting a child missing means it's more likely the child will be murdered, and the data from these actual cases bears that out. To say that a two-hour delay in reporting is usual shouldn't be interpreted to mean that it's expected or in any way exonerates the caregiver. Instead it emphasizes the importance of calling 911 immediately.

From the study:

“Fast action is necessary since there is typically over a two-hour delay in making the initial missing child report, and the vast majority of the abducted children who are murdered are dead within three hours of the abduction.”

It goes on to say:

“We need to tell parents that if their child is unaccounted for, call the police immediately.”

In Bella's case there was a delay and that delay was deliberately caused by her own mother and stepfather.

Furthermore, that 22% of the murderers abused drugs is statistically significant and must be included as a risk factor when considering potential abductors. Even the possibility that Bella's mother and stepfather somehow concluded that JR was not a risk to Bella does not diminish their culpability by omission.

Their role in finding Bella was not to distinguish between good guys and bad guys, it was to provide LE and the search team with any and all names of people who had been in recent contact with Bella. It's unforgivable that they put their personal needs and fears before their concern for their child's life. I would even say it was criminal.



http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

 

[Solitaryone]

I'm very discouraged that no charges have been filed against TG, RF and FN. No child endangerment charges, no obstruction charges, nothing yet. Why is that? Is the DA just going with JJR and letting them off the hook? Another thing about TG that really bothers me is that in all her various media interviews, she has never expressed outrage and horror toward JJR. No guilt over leaving her children with JJR. Why? Why did TG repeatedly lie about JJR? Why didn't TG call 911 herself? Why was JJR omitted from the 911 phone call? There is just too much there to ignore. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think TG/RF and perhaps FN know what happened to Bella. I see no other logical reasons for their actions/inactions and behavior.

I've been thinking about why has TG not shown ANY outrage and horror TOWARD JJR in any of her interviews, and it really bugs me alot. Instead, TG tells different stories about JJR in every interview. Why is that? Does anyone here think there will be any charges brought against TG and RF? And maybe FN too?

 

[MsMarple]

I'm very discouraged that no charges have been filed against TG, RF and FN. No child endangerment charges, no obstruction charges, nothing yet. Why is that? Is the DA just going with JJR and letting them off the hook? Another thing about TG that really bothers me is that in all her various media interviews, she has never expressed outrage and horror toward JJR. No guilt over leaving her children with JJR. Why? Why did TG repeatedly lie about JJR? Why didn't TG call 911 herself? Why was JJR omitted from the 911 phone call? There is just too much there to ignore. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think TG/RF and perhaps FN know what happened to Bella. I see no other logical reasons for their actions/inactions and behavior.

I've been thinking about why has TG not shown ANY outrage and horror TOWARD JJR in any of her interviews, and it really bugs me alot. Instead, TG tells different stories about JJR in every interview. Why is that? Does anyone here think there will be any charges brought against TG and RF? And maybe FN too?

I seem to recall TG saying something about JR in an interview. IIRC, she said she wanted him to feel the same things that he did to Bella, or words to that effect. It kind of got lost in between her keening over her grief, her loss and her anger that her other child was taken away from her - if you know what I mean.

If only she, RF or even grandma had uttered angry words about JR to the 911 dispatcher or to the first LE responders, he might now be in jail for an attempted abduction instead of murder.

 

[Magdalyn]

I'm very discouraged that no charges have been filed against TG, RF and FN. No child endangerment charges, no obstruction charges, nothing yet. Why is that? Is the DA just going with JJR and letting them off the hook? Another thing about TG that really bothers me is that in all her various media interviews, she has never expressed outrage and horror toward JJR. No guilt over leaving her children with JJR. Why? Why did TG repeatedly lie about JJR? Why didn't TG call 911 herself? Why was JJR omitted from the 911 phone call? There is just too much there to ignore. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think TG/RF and perhaps FN know what happened to Bella. I see no other logical reasons for their actions/inactions and behavior.

I've been thinking about why has TG not shown ANY outrage and horror TOWARD JJR in any of her interviews, and it really bugs me alot. Instead, TG tells different stories about JJR in every interview. Why is that? Does anyone here think there will be any charges brought against TG and RF? And maybe FN too?

My only hope is that LE is just biding their time as they continue their investigation, and that they are continuing to ask for TG's 'help' as she claims to have given to the FBI. Once people are arrested, they get their tax payer provided attorney and they stop talking. So it's my hope that they are just keeping close tabs on them and listening to the 'talk'....among other things.

Then again, Rayne Perrywinkle put three young children in a strange man's seatless van, then sent her daughter to a changing room and McDonalds with the same strange man, waited about an hour and then called 911 to report her daughter might be being raped or murdered. (she was right).....and has never been charged w/endangerment. Because, I guess, that's how Florida rolls.....

 

[ChuckMaureen]

SBM, BBM

rbbm

/snip/

Common sense says the longer the delay in reporting a child missing means it's more likely the child will be murdered, and the data from these actual cases bears that out. To say that a two-hour delay in reporting is usual shouldn't be interpreted to mean that it's expected or in any way exonerates the caregiver. Instead it emphasizes the importance of calling 911 immediately.

/snip/

Furthermore, that 22% of the murderers abused drugs is statistically significant and must be included as a risk factor when considering potential abductors. Even the possibility that Bella's mother and stepfather somehow concluded that JR was not a risk to Bella does not diminish their culpability by omission.

/snip/

Their role in finding Bella was not to distinguish between good guys and bad guys, it was to provide LE and the search team with any and all names of people who had been in recent contact with Bella. It's unforgivable that they put their personal needs and fears before their concern for their child's life. I would even say it was criminal.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

Of course, immediate notification is key. My point was not to preach to the choir. The point is that 40% of missing child murder cases are not reported to LE for up to two hours from the discovery the child has gone missing and comparing to this case *it is not so unusual*, excluding quantifying possible reasons for the delay. The study does not include reason categories (whether intentional or via happenstance) for delay. I was not attempting to exonerate their action or inaction.

And to be accurate to current information in this case, 911 was contacted within one and one-half hours, significantly short of the two hour stat I quoted. That places this case at least closer to the ideal but does not change culpability. It might diminish assumption of intent ..who knows. How long does it take to clear a house 'full of drugs'? Two hours or ninety minutes?

Without knowing all specifics (which we do not yet know in this case) it is difficult to ascertain but not difficult to assume why a delay occurred. Drug paraphernalia removal, etc., which is not (yet?) reported in this case and in fact, current publicly available court documentation does not indicate that any of the parties on-site (except for JJR) appeared 'under the influence' or as being 'high' (unless I missed such a report).

IMO, culpability for action or inaction is somewhat different than guilt by intent.

 

[Solitaryone]

I seem to recall TG saying something about JR in an interview. IIRC, she said she wanted him to feel the same things that he did to Bella, or words to that effect. It kind of got lost in between her keening over her grief, her loss and her anger that her other child was taken away from her - if you know what I mean.

If only she, RF or even grandma had uttered angry words about JR to the 911 dispatcher or to the first LE responders, he might now be in jail for an attempted abduction instead of murder.

I agree IF JJR is the only one involved in Bella's murder, calling 911 right away, and informing them of JJR's absence may have saved Bella. Another thing, most parents who've lost a child through no fault of their own still have feelings of intense guilt, even when nothing they did or didn't do would have saved their child. Not just parents of murdered children, but parents who have lost a child through any means. Yet with TG, there is NO guilt. Not only is there no guilt, but there's no outrage and horror directed toward JJR. I'm reminded of Shamika Young who's daughter Relisha Rudd was handed over to the janitor of the homeless shelter where they lived. Most of you probably know that case. Never did Shamika express guilt over her own actions/inactions, but also never expressed outrage against Kahlil Tatum , the janitor who killed Relisha. TG reminds me of another Shamika Young, or a Rayne Perrywinkle. Both of them should have had charges against them but they were never charged. Same here with TG and RF. Why aren't these "mother's" and "parents" being charged with anything when it's so clear their actions/inactions are responsible for their childrens murders??

 

[Magdalyn]

rbbm

Your statements are a little misleading and for the benefit of readers not familiar with the sourced paper I'd like to clarify a couple of things as it's my goto reference on child abduction murders and I'm familiar with it.

The study is an analysis of data collected from 735 cases of child abduction murders. Its purpose was to provide LE and SAR teams with historical information in order to help them optimize their procedures when a child goes missing. While the analysis wasn't specifically intended to profile per se, the authors found there were distinct differences between child abduction murders and child murders.

Common sense says the longer the delay in reporting a child missing means it's more likely the child will be murdered, and the data from these actual cases bears that out. To say that a two-hour delay in reporting is usual shouldn't be interpreted to mean that it's expected or in any way exonerates the caregiver. Instead it emphasizes the importance of calling 911 immediately.

From the study:

“Fast action is necessary since there is typically over a two-hour delay in making the initial missing child report, and the vast majority of the abducted children who are murdered are dead within three hours of the abduction.”

It goes on to say:

“We need to tell parents that if their child is unaccounted for, call the police immediately.”

In Bella's case there was a delay and that delay was deliberately caused by her own mother and stepfather.

Furthermore, that 22% of the murderers abused drugs is statistically significant and must be included as a risk factor when considering potential abductors. Even the possibility that Bella's mother and stepfather somehow concluded that JR was not a risk to Bella does not diminish their culpability by omission.

Their role in finding Bella was not to distinguish between good guys and bad guys, it was to provide LE and the search team with any and all names of people who had been in recent contact with Bella. It's unforgivable that they put their personal needs and fears before their concern for their child's life. I would even say it was criminal.



http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

So what you're saying is that these stats don't even take into account the hundreds of children who go missing, their parents call 911 and the child is found alive/unharmed?

 

[Hippiemomof5]

I agree IF JJR is the only one involved in Bella's murder, calling 911 right away, and informing them of JJR's absence may have saved Bella. Another thing, most parents who've lost a child through no fault of their own still have feelings of intense guilt, even when nothing they did or didn't do would have saved their child. Not just parents of murdered children, but parents who have lost a child through any means. Yet with TG, there is NO guilt. Not only is there no guilt, but there's no outrage and horror directed toward JJR. I'm reminded of Shamika Young who's daughter Relisha Rudd was handed over to the janitor of the homeless shelter where they lived. Most of you probably know that case. Never did Shamika express guilt over her own actions/inactions, but also never expressed outrage against Kahlil Tatum , the janitor who killed Relisha. TG reminds me of another Shamika Young, or a Rayne Perrywinkle. Both of them should have had charges against them but they were never charged. Same here with TG and RF. Why aren't these "mother's" and "parents" being charged with anything when it's so clear their actions/inactions are responsible for their childrens murders??

I agree with this, and this is what baffles me about TG the most. I know moms who have lost kids from numerous things, none of which were their own fault, yet they all have carried guilt, even if for a short time, or that surfaces at times. I just feel like that's what a mother's heart does. TG doesn't seem to have an ounce of that.

 

[MsMarple]

I agree IF JJR is the only one involved in Bella's murder, calling 911 right away, and informing them of JJR's absence may have saved Bella. Another thing, most parents who've lost a child through no fault of their own still have feelings of intense guilt, even when nothing they did or didn't do would have saved their child. Not just parents of murdered children, but parents who have lost a child through any means. Yet with TG, there is NO guilt. Not only is there no guilt, but there's no outrage and horror directed toward JJR. I'm reminded of Shamika Young who's daughter Relisha Rudd was handed over to the janitor of the homeless shelter where they lived. Most of you probably know that case. Never did Shamika express guilt over her own actions/inactions, but also never expressed outrage against Kahlil Tatum , the janitor who killed Relisha. TG reminds me of another Shamika Young, or a Rayne Perrywinkle. Both of them should have had charges against them but they were never charged. Same here with TG and RF. Why aren't these "mother's" and "parents" being charged with anything when it's so clear their actions/inactions are responsible for their childrens murders??

rbbm

I so totally agree with your (bolded) comment that I wish I could emphasize it with flashing neon lights!

It seems that the only place I ever see a parent proclaiming they had no responsibility (or feelings of guilt) in the death of their child are in the cases I read here on WebSleuths. It's the only place I see those parents exclaiming "I'm a good parent!" It's the only place where it's pointed out that some people "grieve differently."

And sadly, it's not the parent but rather the child - Relisha, Colton, Jenise, Cherish, and on and on - who pays the price for that bizarre mindset.

 

[Solitaryone]

rbbm

I so totally agree with your (bolded) comment that I wish I could emphasize it with flashing neon lights!

It seems that the only place I ever see a parent proclaiming they had no responsibility (or feelings of guilt) in the death of their child are in the cases I read here on WebSleuths. It's the only place I see those parents exclaiming "I'm a good parent!" It's the only place where it's pointed out that some people "grieve differently."

And sadly, it's not the parent but rather the child - Relisha, Colton, Jenise, Cherish, and on and on - who pays the price for that bizarre mindset.

^^^^
This!

You're so right! Only the "parents" usually the "mothers" in the cases we read here are the only ones who claim what great "parents' they are. No truly innocent parent does this! People may grieve differently, but there's just some things that people don't do when grieving! Do these "parents" really believe they're such great "parents"? If so, how is that possible? Even when ones child scrapes a knee or falls off a bike, or whatever, most parents will still feel some twinge of guilt! But in these murdered children cases where the "parents" are responsible, they believe and proclaim what great parents they are! I guess I just don't get it.

 

[MsMarple]

So what you're saying is that these stats don't even take into account the hundreds of children who go missing, their parents call 911 and the child is found alive/unharmed?

Exactly.

From the study:

"These reporting delays are important to the course of the investigation. The data show that delays are much more critical in child abduction murders than in other types of investigations, because missing children who are murdered are killed quickly after their abduction."

IOW, LE needs to conduct a child abduction investigation differently than a missing child investigation because time is of the essence. Knowing that a child has been taken by someone rather than having run away or gotten lost can make the difference in finding him or her alive.