GUILTY AZ - Madeline 'Maddie' Jones, 19 & William Jones-Gouchenour, 9 mos, found safe, Mesa, 15 Jun 2017

[Peppery]

I haven't followed this case as closely as many of you, but I want to share my thoughts re: follow the court orders and it will all work out in the end. This is my opinion only.

Usually that's true; right is right and wrong is wrong, breaking the law is wrong. But I am following the case of 5-year-old Aramazd Andressian who went missing in April. His parents are also going through an extremely contentious divorce with accusations of abuse flying. His father was recently granted visitation and on one of the first visits (possibly the very first overnight visit) little Ara went missing and has not been found. His father was arrested for murder last week. So yes, his mother tried to do the right thing and follow the court ordered visitation schedule. She (likely IMO) put aside her fear of her xh and sent her baby off to be killed. The police seem to have little doubt Ara is now deceased and I'd bet my last dime his poor mom wishes she'd taken him and run. Yes she would have broken the law, but an innocent child would still be alive.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ian-5-South-Pasadena-18-April-2017-2-*Arrest*

I don't have a strong opinion on why Madeline and William are missing. If she intentionally left, it's not always as cut and dry as she's wrong for breaking the custody agreement. I do hope no harm has come to them, either by her own hand or someone else. If she's able, the sooner she returns the better the chance the custody issues can be resolved peacefully and with William's best interest as top priority. It seems his rights and well being have been lost in this mess. MOO

 

[Jethro4WS]

There are a lot of personal experiences coloring things in this forum. Never seen it get so accusatory with so little evidence before.

I just hope she and the baby are safe. Period. Her behavior isn't great when it comes to the divorce decree and if she's taken the baby, that makes it worse for her. But she will deal accordingly in the future if she is safe enough to make it back, and right now, that feels like a very big if.

She left with so very little, on such a hot day. Reminds me a lot of the other case going on here right now, the woman from RDU missing -- walking away with nothing leads us to a very sad conclusion most of the time. I hope it's a better ending than that sad conclusion for both ladies and this precious baby.

If she has help in hiding from friends or family then she could very well be just fine with everything she needs to take care of herself and William. Because both families are/were LDS it is quite possible to have help in hiding. We have examples of LDS members helping to hide fugitives where even the FBI and US Marshalls have taken years to find them. Though it is also possible that she could have the assistance of former LDS members and they too have networks of people that help to hide people from the LDS itself. Maddie could be anywhere in the country with William.

 

[gitana1]

Checked out FB, she doesn't have an "active" account, but man the ex is creepy. JMO


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Why?

Found the case information for Madeline's divorce on the Maricopa Co. Family Court website (Case Number: FC2016-090994):
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/FamilyCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=FC2016-090994

Shows her parents might be involved in this case now.

If I am correctly interpreting the document in the link above, looks like Mom requested a an Order of Protection, and the father at one time only had supervised visitation? Is this correct?

No and yes. The order of protection was like a motion to quash. Mom didn't want to take a deposition. She filed an order trying to prevent it.

He has only seen his son twice since birth, and that has been under supervision. Hmmm.... IMO, and based on personal experience, there is a reason for that. JMO

Yeah. Let me straighten this out right now. In cases where a dad and mom separate at or around or before the time of the child's birth, sometimes angry or over it mom won't the let dad see the baby. I see this over and over again. She may then try to say the kid is not his. Or he may question it. So a paternity test is ordered. That takes time.

So now we have a period of separation. Baby doesn't know dad. In cases where a mom is hostile to dad, she may make up allegations and/or state the baby is at risk. I see it repeatedly. I am working a case like that this very moment.

So to err on the side of caution, a judge will often order supervised visits until the baby is older and/or fuller hearings can be held or psych Evals done.

In this case I can see by the docket that a psych evaluation was done and the report issued on or about the date dad was finally given unsupervised time with the baby. The fact that he was finally given unsupervised time after a psych evaluation is telling. That tells me all those horrible allegations I see floating around the internet which seem to have impacted some feelings here, are utter b.s.

The fact that the judge immediately changed custody instead of treating the disappearance as a possible criminal case tells me he or she has a lot of info from the psych evaluation about mom's conduct.

I also note dad filed a motion for sanctions and contempt indicating mom was being obstructionist. It happens all the time. It is illogical that a dad would fight hard for time, finally get it and immediately harm the mother. He's gotten what he was fighting for. In my experience, dads at this stage are ecstatic after being denied contact and are happy with any time they finally have..

 

[missgulfsouth]

I haven't followed this case as closely as many of you, but I want to share my thoughts re: follow the court orders and it will all work out in the end. This is my opinion only.

Usually that's true; right is right and wrong is wrong, breaking the law is wrong. But I am following the case of 5-year-old Aramazd Andressian who went missing in April. His parents are also going through an extremely contentious divorce with accusations of abuse flying. His father was recently granted visitation and on one of the first visits (possibly the very first overnight visit) little Ara went missing and has not been found. His father was arrested for murder last week. So yes, his mother tried to do the right thing and follow the court ordered visitation schedule. She (likely IMO) put aside her fear of her xh and sent her baby off to be killed. The police seem to have little doubt Ara is now deceased and I'd bet my last dime his poor mom wishes she'd taken him and run. Yes she would have broken the law, but an innocent child would still be alive.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ian-5-South-Pasadena-18-April-2017-2-*Arrest*

I don't have a strong opinion on why Madeline and William are missing. If she intentionally left, it's not always as cut and dry as she's wrong for breaking the custody agreement. I do hope no harm has come to them, either by her own hand or someone else. If she's able, the sooner she returns the better the chance the custody issues can be resolved peacefully and with William's best interest as top priority. It seems his rights and well being have been lost in this mess. MOO

 

[gitana1]

Didn't say that....read the thread. I support Maddie.

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The statement in this context that one would "never let anyone take my baby" is a clear inference that the father was trying to take the baby away from Maddie. He lived in another state, was granted a few days of visits now and then after a psychological custody evaluation, is hardly "taking" away a
mother's baby. It infers that a father has no right to any time with the baby that is not controlled by the mother. Is disagree. Don't want a dad around? Get a professional sperm donor. Or adopt. Otherwise the dad has rights and he child has rights.

Any other nonsense about this father being a danger should be resolved since a custody evaluation was conducted.

This guy has been subject to a smear campaign.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Why?



Shows her parents might be involved in this case now.



No and yes. The order of protection was like a motion to quash. Mom didn't want to take a deposition. She filed an order trying to prevent it.



Yeah. Let me straighten this out right now. In cases where a dad and mom separate at or around or before the time of the child's birth, sometimes angry or over it mom won't the let dad see the baby. I see this over and over again. She may then try to say the kid is not his. Or he may question it. So a paternity test is ordered. That takes time.

So now we have a period of separation. Baby doesn't know dad. In cases where a mom is hostile to dad, she may make up allegations and/or state the baby is at risk. I see it repeatedly. I am working a case like that this very moment.

So to err on the side of caution, a judge will often order supervised visits until the baby is older and/or fuller hearings can be held or psych Evals done.

In this case I can see by the docket that a psych evaluation was done and the report issued on or about the date dad was finally given unsupervised time with the baby. The fact that he was finally given unsupervised time after a psych evaluation is telling. That tells me all those horrible allegations I see floating around the internet which seem to have impacted some feelings here, are utter b.s.

The fact that the judge immediately changed custody instead of treating the disappearance as a possible criminal case tells me he or she has a lot of info from the psych evaluation about mom's conduct.

I also note dad filed a motion for sanctions and contempt indicating mom was being obstructionist. It happens all the time. It is illogical that a dad would fight hard for time, finally get it and immediately harm the mother. He's gotten what he was fighting for. In my experience, dads at this stage are ecstatic after being denied contact and are happy with any time they finally have..

You should probably read this post. It contains the judge's order (from June 8th I believe).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-mos-Mesa-15-Jun-2017&p=13460565#post13460565

 

[gitana1]

You should probably read this post. It contains the judge's order (from June 8th I believe).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-mos-Mesa-15-Jun-2017&p=13460565#post13460565

Oh my gosh. Wow.

I rarely see such a strongly worded order. Crazy accusations are common in family law cases. Judges seem to just give them little merit when they feel the evidence doesn't support the allegations, and then they make orders accordingly, but they rarely just come out and say, "you were lying and may face criminal charges for that". In the course of my business I've never heard anything like that.

I hadn't gotten too far on the thread when I suspected dad was being raked over the coals and smeared. I didn't know about this judgment.

It's pretty intense for family law rulings. Which means that the maternal side likely reached a vastly worse level of crazy and vengefulness than is typical and judges see the worst of it every day. This makes it seem that the evidence was worse than the worst.

I have never seen judges stated a finding was "beyond a reasonable doubt" because in family law we use the civil law preponderance standard which means at least about 51% likely to be credible. More likely than not.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the strongest standard or burden of proof. For a family law judge to put that language there meant he or she was appalled. And she was forced to bear all his travel expenses, child support was taken away even though she had much more time with tbe child, and she was fined with sanctions.

All of that being said, I now think, after reading that judgment (thanks Jethro), that the mom and child might actually be very much alive.

I got a weird vibe when maternal grandparents were interviewed. Grandma seemed to be sobbing but there were no actual tears.

But he may never see his baby again. Or not until his baby is an adult.. These are the kinds of cases that sometimes years later results in finding a child in New Zealand or deep inside Mexico, who has been abducted by a parent.

I hope they're alive.

 

[cnmccarthy]

There are a lot of personal experiences coloring things in this forum. Never seen it get so accusatory with so little evidence before.

I just hope she and the baby are safe. Period. Her behavior isn't great when it comes to the divorce decree and if she's taken the baby, that makes it worse for her. But she will deal accordingly in the future if she is safe enough to make it back, and right now, that feels like a very big if.

She left with so very little, on such a hot day. Reminds me a lot of the other case going on here right now, the woman from RDU missing -- walking away with nothing leads us to a very sad conclusion most of the time. I hope it's a better ending than that sad conclusion for both ladies and this precious baby.

Thank you for this. I feel the tone of this whole thread has been that way instead of theories. I find it very strange she walked in that heat with her child to her lawyer. That just doesn't make sense to me. Either someone did something to her or she lied and someone is helping her. Either way this thread is about trying to find both of them, not judging the victims.


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[Henry2326]

Thank you for this. I feel the tone of this whole thread has been that way instead of theories. I find it very strange she walked in that heat with her child to her lawyer. That just doesn't make sense to me. Either someone did something to her or she lied and someone is helping her. Either way this thread is about trying to find both of them, not judging the victims.


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Thank you also. A young mother and baby are missing. Hoping they are safe....

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[Davia18]

Oh my gosh. Wow.

I rarely see such a strongly worded order. Crazy accusations are common in family law cases. Judges seem to just give them little merit when they feel the evidence doesn't support the allegations, and then they make orders accordingly, but they rarely just come out and say, "you were lying and may face criminal charges for that". In the course of my business I've never heard anything like that.

I hadn't gotten too far on the thread when I suspected dad was being raked over the coals and smeared. I didn't know about this judgment.

It's pretty intense for family law rulings. Which means that the maternal side likely reached a vastly worse level of crazy and vengefulness than is typical and judges see the worst of it every day. This makes it seem that the evidence was worse than the worst.

I have never seen judges stated a finding was "beyond a reasonable doubt" because in family law we use the civil law preponderance standard which means at least about 51% likely to be credible. More likely than not.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the strongest standard or burden of proof. For a family law judge to put that language there meant he or she was appalled. And she was forced to bear all his travel expenses, child support was taken away even though she had much more time with tbe child, and she was fined with sanctions.

All of that being said, I now think, after reading that judgment (thanks Jethro), that the mom and child might actually be very much alive.

I got a weird vibe when maternal grandparents were interviewed. Grandma seemed to be sobbing but there were no actual tears.

But he may never see his baby again. Or not until his baby is an adult.. These are the kinds of cases that sometimes years later results in finding a child in New Zealand or deep inside Mexico, who has been abducted by a parent.

I hope they're alive.

I'm glad your here and are a clear voice of reason. I have been through all this myself. I feel they are alive and most likely right in Arizona with family. I feel Maddie has zero regard for her ex and her child. I think they are both very immature and selfish. No one seems to be thinking about the child.
Also I was blown away by the judges order.

 

[msphilosopher]

So very happy to hear Gitana's insights.

:thankyou:

 

[GigTu]

I hope something breaks in this case soon. There has been very little in the way of any real developments.

I don't know if this will help, but here is a link to the divorce decree, which has some information that helps explain the situation. This is from the public record and is signed by the judge.

Also, the judge ordered another hearing June 29:

Here is the warrant to return the child: It allows law enforcement officers to "make forcible entry on private property at any hour to take custody of Baby William."

WOW! After reading all of that, it does seem as though MJ fled and is probably safe somewhere. I don't think she will harm him though.

 

[KookySleuth]

I've been following this thread for a few days now. There are so many things about the Mother's side of this story that don't add up for me. Reading the divorce decree, it looks like the Father was awarded everything he wanted. The judge made it very clear that he did not believe any of the Mother or her family's accusations against the Father. The circumstances surrounding Mother's "disappearance" don't make much sense either. Her parents told the news that she was last seen at 5:30 pm at their home, and at that time she was heading to meet her attorney and then go to a friend's house. Has anyone questioned the fact that she was going to visit with her attorney AFTER business hours? That does not seem very believable to me. Her mom posted all kinds of accusations against the Father on a website www.pl8pic.com, but those posts have now been deleted. In those she states, amongst many other claims, that people were driving by their house for over a year, they had drones flying over their backyard, and their phones were all bugged. It sounds pretty paranoid to me. They also claimed that they were too afraid to go outside alone because of this. It doesn't make sense to me that the Mother who claims she was too afraid to go out alone while her ex-husband was in another state, would be totally ok with going out alone, with the baby, when she KNOWS her ex-husband is in town. I haven't seen anywhere that her attorney or the friend confirmed she was supposed to be meeting with them. That sounds like it could be a cover story she or her family made up to give her time to get hidden away.

I just found this article today. It definitely solidifies for me that the Mother and her parents are in this together.

https://www.facebook.com/MyModernLaw/posts/1503861119635218

This states that the Mother's parents obtained a criminal defense attorney and are not cooperating with police. I don't think this could be any more shady. I believe they absolutely know where both Mother and baby are. I can guarantee that if my child and grandchild were missing, I would be giving police every bit of information I knew. I would also be an open book so that the police were not wasting their time chasing leads that I could easily refute. I would be cooperating 100%! The fact that her parents won't cooperate and don't want their information looked at is very telling to me.

We also learn the Mother's parents reported the baby was sick multiple times and would therefore not be bringing him to the court ordered parenting time. After that, they changed the story claiming the baby had actually been missing since the day before. Who waits a whole day to report their daughter and grandchild missing under strange circumstances? Somebody who isn't worried about where they are, that's who!

It looks like the judge is still offering this Mother, and possibly her parents, some leniency if they chose to make the right choice and return the child. He's given a deadline of July 11, 2017. After that, it sounds like the repercussions of taking off with the child will be "severe." Hopefully they make the right choice and return with the child.

 

[cvaldez1975]

that case is heartbreaking but far from the norm.

I haven't followed this case as closely as many of you, but I want to share my thoughts re: follow the court orders and it will all work out in the end. This is my opinion only.

Usually that's true; right is right and wrong is wrong, breaking the law is wrong. But I am following the case of 5

 

[missgulfsouth]

I'm signing off of this case until she and the baby are found. I don't trust her family or anything they would say or do. Lots of other cases to work on. Praying for baby William.

 

[Lionsanddandelions]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/mode...ther-and-baby-to-quash-subp/1503857966302200/

Via the law firm repping Jacob

 

[cvaldez1975]

very telling

https://www.facebook.com/notes/mode...ther-and-baby-to-quash-subp/1503857966302200/

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

Welcome and thanks for that link, lionsanddandelions. I will intentionally consider (and dig deeper about) the source and encourage others to do the same.

I admit, I am not sure what to think now. I can honestly see this going either way with what has been released. I just hope everyone is physically ok.

 

[GigTu]

I've been following this thread for a few days now. There are so many things about the Mother's side of this story that don't add up for me. Reading the divorce decree, it looks like the Father was awarded everything he wanted. The judge made it very clear that he did not believe any of the Mother or her family's accusations against the Father. The circumstances surrounding Mother's "disappearance" don't make much sense either. Her parents told the news that she was last seen at 5:30 pm at their home, and at that time she was heading to meet her attorney and then go to a friend's house. Has anyone questioned the fact that she was going to visit with her attorney AFTER business hours? That does not seem very believable to me. Her mom posted all kinds of accusations against the Father on a website www.pl8pic.com, but those posts have now been deleted. In those she states, amongst many other claims, that people were driving by their house for over a year, they had drones flying over their backyard, and their phones were all bugged. It sounds pretty paranoid to me. They also claimed that they were too afraid to go outside alone because of this. It doesn't make sense to me that the Mother who claims she was too afraid to go out alone while her ex-husband was in another state, would be totally ok with going out alone, with the baby, when she KNOWS her ex-husband is in town. I haven't seen anywhere that her attorney or the friend confirmed she was supposed to be meeting with them. That sounds like it could be a cover story she or her family made up to give her time to get hidden away.

I just found this article today. It definitely solidifies for me that the Mother and her parents are in this together.

https://www.facebook.com/MyModernLaw/posts/1503861119635218

This states that the Mother's parents obtained a criminal defense attorney and are not cooperating with police. I don't think this could be any more shady. I believe they absolutely know where both Mother and baby are. I can guarantee that if my child and grandchild were missing, I would be giving police every bit of information I knew. I would also be an open book so that the police were not wasting their time chasing leads that I could easily refute. I would be cooperating 100%! The fact that her parents won't cooperate and don't want their information looked at is very telling to me.

We also learn the Mother's parents reported the baby was sick multiple times and would therefore not be bringing him to the court ordered parenting time. After that, they changed the story claiming the baby had actually been missing since the day before. Who waits a whole day to report their daughter and grandchild missing under strange circumstances? Somebody who isn't worried about where they are, that's who!

It looks like the judge is still offering this Mother, and possibly her parents, some leniency if they chose to make the right choice and return the child. He's given a deadline of July 11, 2017. After that, it sounds like the repercussions of taking off with the child will be "severe." Hopefully they make the right choice and return with the child.

From the modern law link, this is all we need to know

Cassie and Roland Jones stop cooperating with police in investigation after claiming daughter was kidnapped

Maricopa Superior Court Judge Stephen Hopkins found there have been inconsistencies in their claims, and a pattern of deception by Mesa residents Roland and Cassie Jones, who say their daughter Madeline was kidnapped June 15.

Medical records show Cassie Jones had taken the baby for a medical exam immediately after the father’s visit, without Madeline being present, telling the child’s doctor that her daughter was dealing with a school commitment. When Madeline failed to show up for another court-scheduled visit by the father with his child on June 16, Cassie Jones told the facility that the child had fallen ill and would not be attending the visit. Yet, Cassie Jones called the police later that day and told the Police that Madeline and baby William had gone missing the day before.

 

[Henry2326]

Thinking of you Maddie and William...hope you are safe...

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