GUILTY AZ - Madeline 'Maddie' Jones, 19 & William Jones-Gouchenour, 9 mos, found safe, Mesa, 15 Jun 2017

[Liz-]

I am so confused on what false stuff has been floated to the media. Other than your reference to the mental health issues. Can you give us your information on what other false claims by him have been made?
I have been wanting to see solid evidence that the father is lying, or guilty. But so far no one has provided this evidence. The only evidence I have seen, comes from a judge who exonerated him from any accusations MJ made against him, and his family. I have also seen the evidence that the Jones family has a history, court documents to prove it, that they gave been caught lying and making up stories in other cases. So, my opinion goes towards solid evidence and rulings against the Jones family and for JG.
If you can show solid evidence that contradicts these rulings, please help me understand what you know.

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[Henry2326]

I am so confused on what false stuff has been floated to the media. Other than your reference to the mental health issues. Can you give us your information on what other false claims by him have been made?
I have been wanting to see solid evidence that the father is lying, or guilty. But so far no one has provided this evidence. The only evidence I have seen, comes from a judge who exonerated him from any accusations MJ made against him, and his family. I have also seen the evidence that the Jones family has a history, court documents to prove it, that they gave been caught lying and making up stories in other cases. So, my opinion goes towards solid evidence and rulings against the Jones family and for JG.
If you can show solid evidence that contradicts these rulings, please help me understand what you know.

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WELCOME Liz! See that you are new to Websleuths. Do you know the mother or father? Is so, you might want to submit as a verified insider.

Isn't accusing someone of mental issues in a custody suit bad enough? The only reason to do that in this context is to get cutody of a baby....take a baby from the mother at 9 months of age. No benefit to the baby, so the only motive I can think of is to get back at the mother.

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[D.A.]

That is the Poster I was referring to. Thanks

 

[Liz-]

WELCOME Liz! See that you are new to Websleuths. Do you know the mother or father? Is so, you might want to submit as a verified insider.

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Thank you. I have been following this case and 2 others. I have been intrigued by this site as a whole. My feelings on this case are more vocal after I read the dissolution of marriage. The strong language and reference to a preponderance of evidence that the judge referenced that proved Jacobs innocence, as well as his strong language against Maddeline and her bogus lying, is what I get my stronger convictions from. Hence why I asked what evidence you are basing your opinions from. I have a sincere inquiry of what makes those who believe the father holds responsibility in her disappearance or why they feel she needed to run from him.

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[darring21]

Same for the mother....only the father telling the world in msn that she has mental health issues. The father and his attorney have done a great job of distributing inaccurate info. IMO, if she did run, it's from fear of him.

I hope she and the baby are ok.

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WELCOME Liz! See that you are new to Websleuths. Do you know the mother or father? Is so, you might want to submit as a verified insider.

Isn't accusing someone of mental issues in a custody suit bad enough? The only reason to do that in this context is to get cutody of a baby....take a baby from the mother at 9 months of age. No benefit to the baby, so the only motive I can think of is to get back at the mother.

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Have you read what the judge has ruled? False accusations and lies to the court. It is reasonable to believe a person who would do this has mental health issues. We have a lot of evidence from the court that supports the father's narrative. You say the father and his attorney are distributing inaccurate info... could you tell us what?

 

[D.A.]

Agreed!! I wouldn't have initiated a post of something found on FB myself, but since I came across the post D.A. referenced, I went ahead & posted it.

I really don't know what to think about this case at the moment!! I just hope both MJ & baby are safe somewhere!![/QUOTE

I have struggled watching this case unfold. It is a crazy case. I also find it odd that the media isn't keeping up on this story. I have read lots of accusations on both sides. I feel like the parents of MJ are a huge problem, and MJ is being influenced greatly by her parents. The charges of abuse are so over used in the courts, so I have a hard time when reading the things MJ is accusing. My daughter attends BYU and I know that BYU has been under fire for a previous handling of a rape (both were students) as far the honor code goes. Meaning it is a Private Church University. All attendees agree to live by certain moral standards. Anyone can accuse others of breaking the honor code. Interviews happen within the Honor Code office. All University's have Tile IX, but BYU's has to do with the honor code that students sign and promise to live by, and are interviewed by their Bishop.As well as the usual Title IX rules. In the past most investigations were based on the honor code being broken, which is more religious based than the usual Title IX other Universities have, basically BYU has both. With that being said, it does fall under the same legal rules. BYU has had to really look close and compare and change how they execute the Title IX. MJ started to file all of the honor code charges last summer when all this was going on at BYU. I find it strange, if you are getting a divorce and want your Ex to pay child support why you would want him kicked out of a University that will ultimately help you and your child as far as the Ex having funds and a good job once completed. If abuse was really happening wouldn't you want him convicted legally? Who cares about him being a student at BYU? Why not go the legal route if rape and abuse took place? My feeling when reading the Title IX charges were, it was an easier way to convict JG through the honor code violations than through the courts, because BYU would throw the book at him, less evidence needed. Media is in an uproar of BYU's handling of the previous rape case and conflicts with Tile IX. I find the charges at BYU to be lots of half truths or a spin put on events that did happen. Like the kidnapping and phone being stolen from MJ by JG and his mother.(see story) I can picture her freaking out, (She is still a teenager) they were fighting about something and it got heated she went to call her mother or police and they were trying to deal with some problems and he didn't want the passive aggressive behavior. I have seen women take everything to a higher level to get their way. In the law anything like this can be considered abuse, kidnapping etc... Just my opinion. I do live in AZ and have read a lot on this court case and I have seen written things from MJ's mother that really disturb me.Things written, then they disappear. Someone is taking screenshots and keeping them and posting them for comparisons. I don't personally know any of these people, just my observations because of my interest intros case. I feel like her and her family are not being honest. Not saying JG is a not at fault in some things. Fighting always looks ugly and it takes two. I find it interesting that the judge when he granted the Custodial Ruling, came down hard on both of them. Really hard. Read those documents from the court someone posted those earlier. The judge really blasts them both and basically said they both committed domestic violence against each other. My opinion is BYU only expelled JG because MJ was constantly filing things and it was probably easier because they would never know the truth, but if they were true he broke the honor code. So to be safe they expelled. BYU doesn't like the drama either. Doesn't mean they were true. I know people kicked out for false or half truth allegations. Just her word against his. Just my two cents and food for thought.

 

[Liz-]

<modsnip>
If you read the divorce decree, it was an order to have both under psychological evaluation. Which was agreed to by the fathers side or requested, I can't tell for sure by the wording.
My question is, why would a deposition of her parents be ordered, and not of him if they had any suspicion that he was involved?
And again, history shows arrests and rulings against the Jones in other issues. But is there any history with Jacob, or actual criminal charges.
I pray every day that mother and baby are found safe, but I also pray that the truth will be known as well. Because if she has lied, and her family is helping her hide, that poor father has literally been put through a living Hell for what the court records show, over a year or more.

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[Henry2326]

If you read the divorce decree, it was an order to have both under psychological evaluation. Which was agreed to by the fathers side or requested, I can't tell for sure by the wording.
My question is, why would a deposition of her parents be ordered, and not of him if they had any suspicion that he was involved?
And again, history shows arrests and rulings against the Jones in other issues. But is there any history with Jacob, or actual criminal charges.
I pray every day that mother and baby are found safe, but I also pray that the truth will be known as well. Because if she has lied, and her family is helping her hide, that poor father has literally been put through a living Hell for what the court records show, over a year or more.

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You will have to ask the judge why he only wants to talk to the mother's parents. I do know from reading 100s of cases that the judge and LE are quite overloaded. IMO, the father has a very good attorney that the judge knows well. Also this attorney has been quite good at promoting the father's position....right or wrong. So he is definitely getting his monies worth.

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[Henry2326]

I've been a member of this site since 2012 and I just happen to be friends with the father. More unsubstantiated accusations. It isn't always the man that is at fault.

Substantiated fact from the judge's order. I don't know these people. So you might have a bias. IMO....most friends do.

I believe that no one needs to be at fault. That thinking has them in the situation they are in today.
Once they both begin to think about what is important for the child, all will be resolved.

I still hope that mother and child are safe. She fears something....


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[mrsNKY]

I really have a very little to say on this case anymore. It is sad though. As I read through the pages to catch up, I have gradually become aware of the tone of some of these posts! Wow!! We have a lot of different people here. People from different etnicities,socio-ecomnomic back grounds. Etc. We will not always agree. That is supposed to be the beauty of what drew a lot of people here. Including myself. I lurked off and on for years before joining.

You can have a difference of opinion but, some of this is a little rude really. And that is just my opinion of course. That flyer thing!! Wow. The difference in the hair color was mentioned here a week or so ago. That was brought up by a member here who caught it. Then it was suggested maybe it is something that should be reported.

I kinda thought that was one thing that was a goal. Locating someone missing and hopefully getting them home to their loved ones. I also thought, we all were on the side of what is right, according to the law.

In this case, a young lady is missing along with her young child. No one (supposedly) knows where they are. We do know for a fact what the judge states, that he has found in this case to be true. He apparently is also the one who presided over the divorce case as well. So, if anyone knows it should be him. HE is the trier of facts on this one. HE is also the one that knows the details, we don't. So as easy as it is to think what WE would do, it is not always the way it turns out. We have had SO many cases that appear to lean in one direction, but end up going in ways we haven't seen.

I don't know if some of you have dealt with custody issues personally, but I don't think we have enough to constantly treat this father as if he has been convicted of a crime. As far as I can see, he has not. The only thing is he COULD have been a terrible husband, but it doesn't make him a terrible father. Yet, some of you are treating him as such. We only know for certain, is what the police have stated publicly and what the court documents show.
So please, step back a minute, take a sip of coffee, wine whatever you desire to relax and play nicely. I like it here on this case and everyone's opinions matter.

My apologies and I hope this does not put me in time-out. I just felt sad coming to this thread. We have wonderful, sluethy people here!!

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[ellbee]

You will have to ask the judge why he only wants to talk to the mother's parents. I do know from reading 100s of cases that the judge and LE are quite overloaded. IMO, the father has a very good attorney that the judge knows well. Also this attorney has been quite good at promoting the father's position....right or wrong. So he is definitely getting his monies worth.

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I just want to throw in there that in Arizona, judges are voted into office and Arizona has a very high LDS population and most judges are LDS. I personally worked for a justice court in Maricopa county and witnessed the judge show favor towards certain parties without any valid moral reason, which is why I quit my job. Not accusing this judge of the same, but wanted to share my experiences with the Arizona Judicial System.


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[D.A.]

I just want to throw in there that in Arizona, judges are voted into office and Arizona has a very high LDS population and most judges are LDS. I personally worked for a justice court in Maricopa county and witnessed the judge show favor towards certain parties without any valid moral reason, which is why I quit my job. Not accusing this judge of the same, but wanted to share my experiences with the Arizona Judicial System.

I am LDS and both of these families are LDS. The Judge as far as I know is not LDS. Please read the court documents, lots of info there. I am sure sometimes judges aren't fair, but even so, doesn't mean in this case the judge doesn't see the lies, Plus I have seen some things written by MJ mother that have been written on line and then deleted. Crazy statements, that I don't think I'm allowed to post. Also JG did have the phyc Elv. I believe MJ didn't and kept giving excuses is my memory, when I read it. Again the judge wanted them to parent the child, FAIRLY..do it fairly and with out drama. read the documents. Very strong language. MJ wouldn't do that and left. That says a lot. I personally know someone who did this. Left the county. with the boy, they caught up with her. She claimed all this stuff too. She served jail time. Her actions speak way louder than her accusations against the father. She now has a felony charge and the kid is a mess. You have to be careful how far all the alleged abuse you are willing to take. It can back fire. I have lots of family members that have tried this in the courts with divorce. I guess I feel like the abuse card is way over played. I know it happens and its so sad. For a judge it must be awful to find a way to find the truth.

 

[ellbee]

I just want to throw in there that in Arizona, judges are voted into office and Arizona has a very high LDS population and most judges are LDS. I personally worked for a justice court in Maricopa county and witnessed the judge show favor towards certain parties without any valid moral reason, which is why I quit my job. Not accusing this judge of the same, but wanted to share my experiences with the Arizona Judicial System.

I am LDS and both of these families are LDS. The Judge as far as I know is not LDS. Please read the court documents, lots of info there. I am sure sometimes judges aren't fair, but even so, doesn't mean in this case the judge doesn't see the lies, Plus I have seen some things written by MJ mother that have been written on line and then deleted. Crazy statements, that i dint think I'm allowed to post. Also JG did have the phyc Elv. I believe MJ didn't and kept giving excuses is my memory, when I read it. Again the judge wanted them to parent the child, FAIRLY..do it fairly and with out drama. read the documents. Very strong language. MJ wouldn't do that and left. That says a lot. I personally know someone who did this. Left the county. with the boy, they caught up with her. She claimed all this stuff too. She served jail time. Her actions speak way louder than her accusations against the father. She now has a felony charge and the kid is a mess. You have to be careful how far all the alleged abuse you are willing to take. It can back fire. I have lots of family members that have tried this in the courts with divorce. I guess I feel like the abuse card is way over played. I know it happens and its so sad. For a judge it must be awful to find a way to find the truth.

I have read the statements and read a ton of the court information. I can also tell you, that despite my severe depression and anxiety and bipolar tendencies, I can pass a psychiatric evaluation with flying colors. So, that means nothing to me. Most serial killers could pass that, lol. Do you think that MJ took off with her own child, risking facing jail/prison time and being without him, just for kicks? You don't think that the claims that MJ's family were making could be slightly true but just way over-exaggerated? I am a Mom that was in a really abusive relationship with my first child's father (which is why I have such extensive mental problems) and I can tell you now, that if I felt as though he could do the same to her, I would do everything to keep him the hell away. Including vanish and risk everything.

I don't personally know either families, but JG is creepy as all hell (sorry JMO) and every logical part of my being tells me that MJ did not just take off with baby for the hell of it. I think she felt as though their lives were at risk. This is all my opinion.




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[TeaTime]

I know nothing about this case, and am only on post #180 of the first thread, but I saw the video of the missing girl's mom. From what I read, she looks like she realizes that her daughter would tell her if she was running away or at least call so she wouldn't worry and since she hasn't heard from her, she fears the reason is because they are dead.

And, I know most of you have grieved. There is the swollen face grief and tears and then a point where the there are no more tears and you dry cry. It hurts the same. Every one of us that has wept for days, weeks, months, years knows that sometimes, you run out of tears.

I don't get anything odd about mom at all.

 

[JetsFan24]

Substantiated fact from the judge's order. I don't know these people. So you might have a bias. IMO....most friends do.

I believe that no one needs to be at fault. That thinking has them in the situation they are in today.
Once they both begin to think about what is important for the child, all will be resolved.

I still hope that mother and child are safe. She fears something....


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I'm still curious about yours and other stuff prejudice against the father. What has he done that has proven to be abusive to the child? He's seen him twice. What has he done to be abusive towards her? Grabbing her phone away from her?

When she has been found and if it's the situation of kidnapping and running away with that little boy (which is extremely likely to be the scenario), she may never see her child again. So in an attempt to prevent the child from ever seeing his father, the opposite will likely happen.

Through this all happening, she has displayed mental illness, so then accusation has seemingly been substantiated.

Why was she so against him having access to his offspring? Why are you so against him having access to his child?

It seems like anyone supporting Madeline in this case hasn't considered any of the fact she of the case and has simply seen/heard of custody battle and man vs. woman and automatically their mind goes to father is the dirtbag! Without at all reading into the facts of the case.

 

[Henry2326]

I'm still curious about yours and other stuff prejudice against the father. What has he done that has proven to be abusive to the child? He's seen him twice. What has he done to be abusive towards her? Grabbing her phone away from her?

When she has been found and if it's the situation of kidnapping and running away with that little boy (which is extremely likely to be the scenario), she may never see her child again. So in an attempt to prevent the child from ever seeing his father, the opposite will likely happen.

Through this all happening, she has displayed mental illness, so then accusation has seemingly been substantiated.

Why was she so against him having access to his offspring? Why are you so against him having access to his child?

It seems like anyone supporting Madeline in this case hasn't considered any of the fact she of the case and has simply seen/heard of custody battle and man vs. woman and automatically their mind goes to father is the dirtbag! Without at all reading into the facts of the case.

We all have opinions. We just don't agree with yours.

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[ellbee]

I'm still curious about yours and other stuff prejudice against the father. What has he done that has proven to be abusive to the child? He's seen him twice. What has he done to be abusive towards her? Grabbing her phone away from her?

When she has been found and if it's the situation of kidnapping and running away with that little boy (which is extremely likely to be the scenario), she may never see her child again. So in an attempt to prevent the child from ever seeing his father, the opposite will likely happen.

Through this all happening, she has displayed mental illness, so then accusation has seemingly been substantiated.

Why was she so against him having access to his offspring? Why are you so against him having access to his child?

It seems like anyone supporting Madeline in this case hasn't considered any of the fact she of the case and has simply seen/heard of custody battle and man vs. woman and automatically their mind goes to father is the dirtbag! Without at all reading into the facts of the case.

That's a false assumption. Most of us are pretty well aware of the details of the case on both sides and that is exactly where our opinions came from. Why has he seen his child twice? Where was he during the pregnancy? Was he available to her for all of her drs appointments? I have experienced a ton of abuse in a past relationship. Could you tell? Nope. Do I talk about it? Nope. Did I publicly display or announce my injuries ever? Nope.

So, you're going to assume that there was NO abuse because you haven't seen it? But tell us that we can't assume that there was because of her behavior and desire to keep the baby from his father? That doesn't make much sense.



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[TeaTime]

The baby in this case does take a bottle.

Not only does he take a bottle, dad only had him for 2 hours on each of his 2 visits so that mom could breast feed. She complained that 4 hours was too long because of breast feeding so 2 hours was ordered.

 

[TeaTime]

Or withdraw because fee isn't being paid.

Or, because they can't communicate with their client because she has disappeared. Withdrawal would then be without consent. They have no choice.

 

[KookySleuth]

Looks like the group sponsors the father. I will alert Mod and let them make the call. The Father has floated a lot of false stuff to the media, so I would guess this false also. IMO

Isn't accusing someone of mental issues in a custody suit bad enough? The only reason to do that in this context is to get cutody of a baby....take a baby from the mother at 9 months of age. No benefit to the baby, so the only motive I can think of is to get back at the mother.

I'm a bit confused... You said "The Father has floated a lot of false stuff to the media..." and then only provide one thing, mental issues, as an example. Is there any other false stuff you believe has been "floated" to the media? To me, one thing is not "a lot" of false stuff. And how do you know it's false? I have not seen any actual evidence either way, other than the mother and her family's actions.

I also think that your assumption that one parent asserting another has mental health issue is ONLY due to wanting to get back at the other parent is faulty logic. It could also be that the parent is concerned for the safety and welfare of their child. You state your assumptions as facts. I'm just saying you might want to rethink that.