GUILTY AZ - Madeline 'Maddie' Jones, 19 & William Jones-Gouchenour, 9 mos, found safe, Mesa, 15 Jun 2017

[TeaTime]

Well, the little sister's Missing poster tells me that Mom did, in fact, dye her hair brown before she disappeared.

Did she live with mom and dad? Who was last to see her? Obviously, she didn't drive herself somewhere since no cars are missing.

Dad couldn't have visitation because the baby was sick and the next day he is gone with mama? Her mom told him the baby was sick? But really, they were already missing? I am confused.

She ran with this baby. They weren't abducted and the dad didn't harm either one of them.

I may have to change my mind about granny's innocence.

 

[D.A.]

new plans to hand out the new flyers to make people aware to look for them. look online

 

[JetsFan24]

That's a false assumption. Most of us are pretty well aware of the details of the case on both sides and that is exactly where our opinions came from. Why has he seen his child twice? Where was he during the pregnancy? Was he available to her for all of her drs appointments? I have experienced a ton of abuse in a past relationship. Could you tell? Nope. Do I talk about it? Nope. Did I publicly display or announce my injuries ever? Nope.

So, you're going to assume that there was NO abuse because you haven't seen it? But tell us that we can't assume that there was because of her behavior and desire to keep the baby from his father? That doesn't make much sense.



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I'm sorry to hear about your prior history of domestic abuse. It's disgusting when it happens and each and every dirtbag should be held accountable for their incomprehensible actions.

I wasn't actually assuming that you all are not well versed on the case. I was going with the idea that the posts being made in her favor seem that way.

She brought about an accusation of sexual assault against him to the BYU board, during a time which the college has been under fire for improperly handling these cases. Why did she not bring this to the police, but had no problem making it public as she brought it to the college board? Why weren't charges ever filed? If there was seriously something wrong here, charges would've been filed.

So she has no problem trying to seemingly get him into trouble and bringing it to some sort of authoritarian, but did not bring it to police. Hmm. That sounds like no abuse really occurred to me. This isn't a case where she was beaten mercilessly and nothing was done about it. If that were the case I would be all for her running with that baby.

Perhaps he has only seen the child twice because she has demonstrated that she absolutely wants to keep him away from the child at all costs.

There hasn't been any documentation that he was or was not available during the pregnancy or doctors appointments. So neither of us can use that as a point to make our case. Perhaps he was told to stay away. Perhaps he wanted nothing to do with it. Perhaps he was there. We do not know.

I think we can both agree that there was ABSOLUTELY no abuse done to the child. He had only seen the child twice during supervised visits.

Regardless of what you think her motive is, you have to understand that if she took the child and ran, that it's illegal. And if/when she resurfaces she will have the child immediately taken away from her and placed in custody of the father she so desperately wanted to keep him away from. She will also likely have charges filed against her and have a psych evaluation that will likely lead to damning results for her.

IF she ran with this child. She did nothing good for herself or this child.

 

[cvaldez1975]

what exactly has been proven false?

Looks like the group sponsors the father. I will alert Mod and let them make the call. The Father has floated a lot of false stuff to the media, so I would guess this false also. IMO

 

[cvaldez1975]

im pretty sure mental health issues are launched back and forth in MOST custody battles actually. and it has not been proven that she does not.

the father wanted visitation. he was not trying to "take the baby" from her. he got full custody because she may have ran off.

WELCOME Liz! See that you are new to Websleuths. Do you know the mother or father? Is so, you might want to submit as a verified insider.

Isn't accusing someone of mental issues in a custody suit bad enough? The only reason to do that in this context is to get cutody of a baby....take a baby from the mother at 9 months of age. No benefit to the baby, so the only motive I can think of is to get back at the mother.

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[cvaldez1975]

the judge has not said it isn't true. the judge said that she has not undergone a psych eval.

Yes..emergency order from judge says, quote:

#12 of emergency order: there is a pending psychological evaluation of mother which has not been completed. Father avows Mother has mental health problems and is a danger to her child.

Let me guess....your friend, the father, told you, other people have said it too. Not true, per the judge.

You might ask your friend his real intentions. I'm not convinced he was ever interested in joint custody.

I'm frankly not sure that the mother and baby are safe. We see terrible things on this site and it starts out with missing people and those closest sometimes say they ran away...RIP Savannah.







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[mrsNKY]

Ahh! Voice of reason cvaldez1975

I guess all things are possible. But, I still don't see why all the hostility toward the dad?? It would be really goofy of him to take the chance on harming her. There is no guarantee the baby would have gone to him or his family. Why harm the baby?? He had plenty of opportunity to harm the wife, way before this. He could have filed for full custody as soon as the child was born if he wanted to. Why now? Why would he go through all of this and still not have the baby?
This is bashing another victim. Because right now, he is a victim too. His child is missing!! And that is all we know. There is absolutely ZERO proof he has harmed anyone. But, yet this bashing is still going on.

On the other hand, we have a mom who has been ran through the wringer for allegedly killing her daughter. So, moms can be deceitful and mean, just like fathers. I'm yet to see or hear any valid proof this father has done anything. The allegations against him are unfounded and are now off the table. The father says "mom, has a mental issue". So what, "mom says he abused her, had illegal contact with a minor". Apparently, the judge was satisfied their was no validity to that claim. If mom had completed her psych eval and passed, they would both be on a level playing field. So, what's left that he has done??? He tried to get visitation with his child!! That is his right. And IF she can come forward, she will expect to try to attempt to get visitation too. It would have been her right. It probably wouldn't happen for a while, if she was complicit in her disappearance. We have good parents and bad. I don't see either one as bad. (Again, as long as she is not complicit in hiding). Sometimes, you people need to love their kids, more than they hate each other. Kids are are made to be loved by as many people as possible. Wow! My mind is blown at some of the attitudes. My goodness!

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[JetsFan24]

Ahh! Voice of reason cvaldez1975

I guess all things are possible. But, I still don't see why all the hostility toward the dad?? It would be really goofy of him to take the chance on harming her. There is no guarantee the baby would have gone to him or his family. Why harm the baby?? He had plenty of opportunity to harm the wife, way before this. He could have filed for full custody as soon as the child was born if he wanted to. Why now? Why would he go through all of this and still not have the baby?
This is bashing another victim. Because right now, he is a victim too. His child is missing!! And that is all we know. There is absolutely ZERO proof he has harmed anyone. But, yet this bashing is still going on.

On the other hand, we have a mom who has been ran through the wringer for allegedly killing her daughter. So, moms can be deceitful and mean, just like fathers. I'm yet to see or hear any valid proof this father has done anything. The allegations against him are unfounded and are now off the table. The father says "mom, has a mental issue". So what, "mom says he abused her, had illegal contact with a minor". Apparently, the judge was satisfied their was no validity to that claim. If mom had completed her psych eval and passed, they would both be on a level playing field. So, what's left that he has done??? He tried to get visitation with his child!! That is his right. And IF she can come forward, she will expect to try to attempt to get visitation too. It would have been her right. It probably wouldn't happen for a while, if she was complicit in her disappearance. We have good parents and bad. I don't see either one as bad. (Again, as long as she is not complicit in hiding). Sometimes, you people need to love their kids, more than they hate each other. Kids are are made to be loved by as many people as possible. Wow! My mind is blown at some of the attitudes. My goodness!

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I agree with all of this. There hasn't been any legitimate findings that the father has tried to harm anyone OR take the child away. That's why on the surface it seems like because he's a man he said automatically assumed to be a poor parent or spouse because there is a custody battle and he rightfully wants access to his child...

I just want to get to the route of the dislike for the father and the assumption that he is somehow completely to blame for this stuff. I'm all ears if there is a legitimate argument that proves he is as awful of a person as some seem to think he is.

 

[mrsNKY]

the judge has not said it isn't true. the judge said that she has not undergone a psych eval.

I agree with all of this. There hasn't been any legitimate findings that the father has tried to harm anyone OR take the child away. That's why on the surface it seems like because he's a man he said automatically assumed to be a poor parent or spouse because there is a custody battle and he rightfully wants access to his child...

I just want to get to the route of the dislike for the father and the assumption that he is somehow completely to blame for this stuff. I'm all ears if there is a legitimate argument that proves he is as awful of a person as some seem to think he is.

I'm with you! Maybe I could change my mind. No one says anything other than the two allegations she filed.

I have been completely astounded at some of this. I felt bad for the person who knows the family who is posting here. It is normally what we want is someone who can get some of our questions answered or steer us to some helpful information. She/he was attacked after the first post, because he/she knew the fathers side. [emoji15]




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[cvaldez1975]

Ahh! Voice of reason cvaldez1975

I guess all things are possible. But, I still don't see why all the hostility toward the dad?? It would be really goofy of him to take the chance on harming her. There is no guarantee the baby would have gone to him or his family. Why harm the baby?? He had plenty of opportunity to harm the wife, way before this. He could have filed for full custody as soon as the child was born if he wanted to. Why now? Why would he go through all of this and still not have the baby?
This is bashing another victim. Because right now, he is a victim too. His child is missing!! And that is all we know. There is absolutely ZERO proof he has harmed anyone. But, yet this bashing is still going on.

On the other hand, we have a mom who has been ran through the wringer for allegedly killing her daughter. So, moms can be deceitful and mean, just like fathers. I'm yet to see or hear any valid proof this father has done anything. The allegations against him are unfounded and are now off the table. The father says "mom, has a mental issue". So what, "mom says he abused her, had illegal contact with a minor". Apparently, the judge was satisfied their was no validity to that claim. If mom had completed her psych eval and passed, they would both be on a level playing field. So, what's left that he has done??? He tried to get visitation with his child!! That is his right. And IF she can come forward, she will expect to try to attempt to get visitation too. It would have been her right. It probably wouldn't happen for a while, if she was complicit in her disappearance. We have good parents and bad. I don't see either one as bad. (Again, as long as she is not complicit in hiding). Sometimes, you people need to love their kids, more than they hate each other. Kids are are made to be loved by as many people as possible. Wow! My mind is blown at some of the attitudes. My goodness!

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I think some may have biases due to their own life experiences which is understandable, however the things I stated upthread are fact directly from the court orders. Some reaching to fit a narrative is going on and I will point that out.


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[darring21]

I've been a member of this site since 2012 and I just happen to be friends with the father. More unsubstantiated accusations. It isn't always the man that is at fault.

Just FYI, I meant this as sarcasm and completely failed. I do not know the father or anyone in this case. I was annoyed that I was being accused of being friends with the father because I was defending him.

 

[mrsNKY]

I think some may have biases due to their own life experiences which is understandable, however the things I stated upthread are fact directly from the court orders. Some reaching to fit a narrative is going on and I will point that out.


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Agreed!

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[mrsNKY]

Just FYI, I meant this as sarcasm and completely failed. I do not know the father or anyone in this case. I was annoyed that I was being accused of being friends with the father because I was defending him.

Hahaha! Look where that sarcasm got ya! Lol

I think there was another person also, but maybe it was you.
I felt horrible after reading the post afterward. I thought, WOW! This thread has brought out a different side of people, and that is fine, I'm just waiting for an explanation of what the father did, that was proven, true. Outside of personal issues, what has THIS person done. The reason may be valid, I just like to be able to read the same info and maybe there are clues there. I don't know. I guess I'm just going to stop following this thread. I can wait a while until there is movement. Sad!

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[KookySleuth]

Hahaha! Look where that sarcasm got ya! Lol

I think there was another person also, but maybe it was you.
I felt horrible after reading the post afterward. I thought, WOW! This thread has brought out a different side of people, and that is fine, I'm just waiting for an explanation of what the father did, that was proven, true. Outside of personal issues, what has THIS person done. The reason may be valid, I just like to be able to read the same info and maybe there are clues there. I don't know. I guess I'm just going to stop following this thread. I can wait a while until there is movement. Sad!

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Please don't leave!! We need people like you with rational and logical minds who wait for evidence before making a decision!

 

[KismetDream]

I made that poster with her brown hair. The Facebook page was created with no bias and just a honest desire to find them. Both sides are given equal opportunity to give information with the goal of finding them both alive and well

 

[1&2&3]

LDS is a strong group and supportive of one another.

I think she is being helped by supporters and is out of the area, safe and sound.
Her parents cannot know where she is or they would be charged with a crime. My feelings are they suspect this is what happened, but with no proof, it is a frightening time for them.

We do not know what goes on behind closed doors, speaking of the time between the young couple.

 

[JetsFan24]

I wonder if there have been any searches or new tips to the police?

If this young lady truly ran off, I wonder what exactly her plan would be when she resurfaces. I pray they are both still safe.

 

[Dixie811]

There was/is (don't know if still open) another case I followed here on WS of two sisters in Utah who were LDS. They were minors, and their mom had really brainwashed them against their dad, despite the judge giving him full custody. Anyhow the girls ended up 'running away' but they were clearly being helped. They would make and send videos demanding the judge change custody. It appeared someone from the mother's circle was hiding them "in plain sight" in their home.

So anyway, all this to say, I certainly think it's possible or even likely that someone from Madeline's parents' circle is helping them.

 

[D.A.]

I find this story fascinating because I am LDS, and both of the families are LDS. Yes we are a strong group and supportive USUALLY. Good things, help and serving when someone is down, etc.. but just because we go to church with people doesn't mean the church or it's people would help hide her. People like hearing the drama, but when it comes to doing something for someone that could potentially get you involved, people run. If someone is helping her hide it would because they are an organization that does that, or personal friends or friends of friends. But when the chips are down and they start getting looked at they will run. My son was beat up by 3 boys at a campout a few years back. The families of the boys helped lie about what happened and told lies about my son and us. The man who saw it and alerted my husband couldn't stand the heat and in the end after telling people what he saw, changed his story. It was too hard for him and he didn't want to be involved. So LDS aren't perfect they have lots of "people" problems, just like all of man kind. It is very hard to defend yourself against any kind of accusations, its horrible to be accused of something you didn't do, or a spin put on something that did happen. I have seen people lie and sometimes they are very good at it. As far as this story, I see lots of things that don't add up on the mothers side and I have read all the documents. I just saw some of the depositions and I can tell they are lying and they know what is going on. I'm not a professional body language person, but I'm a mother and if these were my kids I would be very upset if I were asking these questions and I would know they were lying when they won't give me a straight answer. I know how BYU works and it's not a federal agency, it's title IX, if she had a hard time "telling someone" because most victims "don't tell" well she told and she told and she told. So that is out. She is no victim, she went after him and is trying to destroy his future. It's vengeance. I have seen divorces with these kinds of accusations. She was a child getting married. Only 17. (Which is weird to me and Lds tend to get married young) Parents had to sign for her. She wasn't mature enough to handle marital problems and she got her parents involved which is a huge no no. She should have got counseling not talked to their parents about their problems. After all she is a Nordstrom scholar and a pre-med student. She's a smart girl, but emotionally immature and her mother got involved and scape goated the boy. The BYU documents say he raped her on the first night. I'm sorry but to get married in the Temple you can't have pre martial sex, so..... usually can't wait to get out of there, and to the hotel. If Maddie couldn't handle a sexual relationship then she had no business getting married. The parents to me are awful liars and very very weird. The Tv news story with the parents looked set up, with the church materials in the back ground on the piano, staged right between the husband and wife, as if to say, Look we are a "GOOD LDS FAMILY" The crying was fake. Like I said, I'm Lds but I have seen my share that use their membership as a way it to make them look innocent. Time will tell. And there is KARMA. BTW I love this site and talking about all the possibilities. The MSM for some weird reason isn't covering this story.

 

[KookySleuth]

The 911 call is available. Apparently I can't post it, but I think you can guess where.