AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[oceanblueeyes]

If they had evidence he committed the crime in the fashion implied, and they let him plead out, they took the coward's way out. Not knowing what to do does not mean circumventing the demands for justice.



Truthfully, I try real hard not to form opinions based on such narrow information. One comment does not a continued behavior make.

I don't think any of them were cowards. They all faced reality. They had a boy too young for the detention center and not old enough for an adult prison.

He edged out due to him being probably the youngest murder defendant ever in AZ's history.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

The very first thing my own dad taught me BEFORE ever handing me a gun, was gun safety. Rule #1 Never point it at anyone.

I would bet my last dollar Vincent did the same.

I wouldn't bet a wooden nickel!

 

[Fairy1]

ITA!

And the plea deal they offered him shows how much they all did care.

Each one of them knew the most important thing is to see that this boy is given extensive mental treatment over the next few years.

imo

IMO - the plea deal was designed to cover their own *advertiser censored**es and illustrates how completely unprepared they were to handle a case like this one. Granted, it's not every day a court has an alleged 8-year-old killer. But based on the comments I've seen from the locals, the people of St. Johns, LE and the court were ALL ready to wash their hands of the whole affair ASAP.

We have NO IDEA, whatsoever, what further investigation there was after the "confession." I'm willing to bet that if we saw all the rest of the docs from this case right now, we would see that any further "investigation" was 100% designed to fit their assumption that this boy was guilty. In fact, the questionnaires that we've seen - from what I could read - were specifically worded to back up their theory. Sick.

And please - let's at least agree on the FACT that this boy was 8 when the crime occurred. He didn't turn 9 until later.

 

[fran]

FACT, this child didn't plea guilty to killing his dad and Tim. He admitted that his actions that day caused the death of TIM and he said he didn't want a trial.

I personally find it EXTREMELY disturbing that people declared this child guilty from the get go with NO evidence and then with 1/4 of the evidence revealed, NONE pointing JUST to this child, remained adament that he was the murderer. To boost their claim, they ASSUME the unknown evidence points to the child only. Oh, yeah, and they IGNORE the fact there is a multitude of additional perps, per witness statements..... But as the saying goes, out of sight, out of mind.

This case has shown me that when def attorneys proclaim 'rush to judgment' and 'tunnel vision,' it's not ALWAYS just BS. That's what happened here, IMHO, and has continued to this day. I've also seen how the media can twist information to influence the public at large. Only printing 1/2 what is known can completely change the meaning of a statement or evidence.

Ignoring FACTS in a murder case is a VERY DANGEROUS game.

From what I was reading of the local residence comments, they just want the case to go away and life go on as usual. As the pros and St. Johns PD have been reminded by a multitude of statements made around the country, they scre*ed this case up royally and rather than admit their error, they're running for cover and leaving this child to deal with THEIR MISTAKE for the rest of his life.

Who knows, maybe Eryn can get someone to listen to her and look into this. Of course, the way the rats are scurrying overboard as we speak, there may not be anyone left in St. Johns who can rectify this mess by the time someone who knows what they're doing looks at it.

JMHO
fran

 

[Trino]

FACT, this child didn't plea guilty to killing his dad and Tim. He admitted that his actions that day caused the death of TIM and he said he didn't want a trial.

I personally find it EXTREMELY disturbing that people declared this child guilty from the get go with NO evidence and then with 1/4 of the evidence revealed, NONE pointing JUST to this child, remained adament that he was the murderer. To boost their claim, they ASSUME the unknown evidence points to the child only. Oh, yeah, and they IGNORE the fact there is a multitude of additional perps, per witness statements..... But as the saying goes, out of sight, out of mind.

This case has shown me that when def attorneys proclaim 'rush to judgment' and 'tunnel vision,' it's not ALWAYS just BS. That's what happened here, IMHO, and has continued to this day. I've also seen how the media can twist information to influence the public at large. Only printing 1/2 what is known can completely change the meaning of a statement or evidence.

Ignoring FACTS in a murder case is a VERY DANGEROUS game.

From what I was reading of the local residence comments, they just want the case to go away and life go on as usual. As the pros and St. Johns PD have been reminded by a multitude of statements made around the country, they scre*ed this case up royally and rather than admit their error, they're running for cover and leaving this child to deal with THEIR MISTAKE for the rest of his life.

Who knows, maybe Eryn can get someone to listen to her and look into this. Of course, the way the rats are scurrying overboard as we speak, there may not be anyone left in St. Johns who can rectify this mess by the time someone who knows what they're doing looks at it.JMHOfran

It's exactly as you stated, "... a multitude of statement made around the country." However, the people of St. Johns are not saying this. I don't hear Eryn crying out for justice. Aside from saying she didn't want the boy to plea, she now seems okay with the decision.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It's exactly as you stated, "... a multitude of statement made around the country." However, the people of St. Johns are not saying this. I don't hear Eryn crying out for justice. Aside from saying she didn't want the boy to plea, she now seems okay with the decision.

Eryn's lack of action speaks volumes to me.

She can "claim" anything ...make all sorts of public statements....but inaction....inexcusable IF she truly wasn't in agreement and truly believes he's innocent.

Time will tell.....but I would bet, she isn't going to do a darn thing about it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped

FACT, this child didn't plea guilty to killing his dad and Tim. He admitted that his actions that day caused the death of TIM and he said he didn't want a trial.

Did you ever consider the kid plead guilty because he knows he is?

 

[fran]

It's exactly as you stated, "... a multitude of statement made around the country." However, the people of St. Johns are not saying this. I don't hear Eryn crying out for justice. Aside from saying she didn't want the boy to plea, she now seems okay with the decision.

Do you have a link of her making a statement that she's ok with it? The last I heard Eryn was crying during the last court proceedings. I don't pretend or invent what I think she's doing.

I hope Eryn will work to right the injustice that's been done to her child. But I don't know if she can. She's limited in funds and would have to find someone to work pro-bono. That's the problem when someone who isn't rich is accused of a crime, they're at the mercy of the state that holds all the purse-strings and has unlimited resources.

It took the state months of court proceedings to get this far. It's possible Eryn is working behind the scenes. I really wouldn't know. I guess we may know in a few months. If we hear more about the case, then she's been working on it. If we don't hear anything further, well.......we'll probably forget this case and the boy will continue as the State of Arizona allows him to.

This is all just my point of view.

fran

 

[fran]

Did you ever consider the kid plead guilty because he knows he is?

If you've read any of my previous posts, you'd know I have considered he could be guilty. I really don't know. I haven't seen one thing yet that points to this child, though.

Have you considered he may be innocent? That he may have done the plea deal because he didn't want to go through, most likely multiple trials and spend from that day forward and 25 + years in jail, but if he said what they wanted, he could go home with his mom?

JMHO
fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

If you've read any of my previous posts, you'd know I have considered he could be guilty. I really don't know. I haven't seen one thing yet that points to this child, though.

Have you considered he may be innocent? That he may have done the plea deal because he didn't want to go through, most likely multiple trials and spend from that day forward and 25 + years in jail, but if he said what they wanted, he could go home with his mom?

JMHO
fran

I've seen plenty that points to the boy and only the boy. I've considered and discounted this child's innocence.

 

[fran]

I've seen plenty that points to the boy and only the boy. I've considered and discounted this child's innocence.

I know there are many who are sure the child is guilty, which proves my point.

Thank you for your opinion,
fran

 

[Bobbisangel]

This is my point of view only:

I don't believe for a minute that everyone in LE, the Pros, the defense attorney, the judge and anyone else who had a say so in what happens to this boy got together and decided to make a scapegoat of this boy. I also don't believe that they wanted to get this case over and done with so they made sure this boy pled guilty.

We have no idea what evidence was found at the crime scene. We haven't been told the lab results or much of anything else because of the gag order.
We don't know who LE questioned and who they didn't. We don't know what they did or didn't do on this case. I know people would like to believe that LE focused on this young boy from the beginning and didn't even talk to anyone else or follow any other leads. They just made the decision to hang this kid by his heels and that was that.

If the mother didn't want this boy to plead guilty it seems she should have spoken up when the decision was in the process of being made. She had lots of time to verbalize her opinion because this decision sure wasn't made over night. From what I gather she doesn't think this boy is guilty and therefore I doubt if she even sees a need for long term therapy. I have an idea that if this boy is allowed to leave with his mother he will never even see a therapist which means he will get no help unless it is court ordered. Truth be known, this boy needs therapy. A good therapist needs to find out why he set out to murder his dad and Tim and work from there. This is a troubled boy and he will only get worse without help. Without help we just may read his name in the news again someday if murder is his way of taking care of his problems. Maybe he won't be allowed to own a gun but a gun isn't the only weapon that can be used to get rid of someone.

I get the idea that there are people out there who think this boy should just be turned loose to go home with his mom and everything will be fine because they haven't seen proof that he murdered his own dad and Tim. We likely won't see any proof but I know one thing. Without this boy getting any help I wouldn't want him living next door to me or mine. He is a troubled child and I have no doubt about that.

 

[Trino]

This is my point of view only:

I don't believe for a minute that everyone in LE, the Pros, the defense attorney, the judge and anyone else who had a say so in what happens to this boy got together and decided to make a scapegoat of this boy. I also don't believe that they wanted to get this case over and done with so they made sure this boy pled guilty.

We have no idea what evidence was found at the crime scene. We haven't been told the lab results or much of anything else because of the gag order.
We don't know who LE questioned and who they didn't. We don't know what they did or didn't do on this case. I know people would like to believe that LE focused on this young boy from the beginning and didn't even talk to anyone else or follow any other leads. They just made the decision to hang this kid by his heels and that was that.

If the mother didn't want this boy to plead guilty it seems she should have spoken up when the decision was in the process of being made. She had lots of time to verbalize her opinion because this decision sure wasn't made over night. From what I gather she doesn't think this boy is guilty and therefore I doubt if she even sees a need for long term therapy. I have an idea that if this boy is allowed to leave with his mother he will never even see a therapist which means he will get no help unless it is court ordered. Truth be known, this boy needs therapy. A good therapist needs to find out why he set out to murder his dad and Tim and work from there. This is a troubled boy and he will only get worse without help. Without help we just may read his name in the news again someday if murder is his way of taking care of his problems. Maybe he won't be allowed to own a gun but a gun isn't the only weapon that can be used to get rid of someone.

I get the idea that there are people out there who think this boy should just be turned loose to go home with his mom and everything will be fine because they haven't seen proof that he murdered his own dad and Tim. We likely won't see any proof but I know one thing. Without this boy getting any help I wouldn't want him living next door to me or mine. He is a troubled child and I have no doubt about that.

Good post. Those that believe the child is innocent are forgetting that w/o the plea, he would just go home. The court would have no power to direct him into therapy. If he did the crime, is would be another crime to turn him loose w/o getting help.

 

[shadowraiths]

This overall case is still troublesome bc, at some point in the future, this child will eventually melt into our social landscape, leaving the potential for devastating and violent repercussions down the road. Which raises a conundrum within our society. Just how do we deal with children who are convicted of murder? Is it possible to move them in the direction of becoming productive members of society? Or does death's stain leave an indelible mark? One that is apt to raise its ugly head in the future?

 

[Fairy1]

This overall case is still troublesome bc, at some point in the future, this child will eventually melt into our social landscape, leaving the potential for devastating and violent repercussions down the road. Which raises a conundrum within our society. Just how do we deal with children who are convicted of murder? Is it possible to move them in the direction of becoming productive members of society? Or does death's stain leave an indelible mark? One that is apt to raise its ugly head in the future?

I understand where you're coming from SW. But honestly, you may very well have a future serial killer living right next door at this very moment who just hasn't shown any extreme characteristics - yet. We all may have!

What we do to move our children in the direction of becoming productive members of society is to BE productive members of society by being good, responsible parents who provide a loving and stable home. Understanding our children and meeting their emotional needs is part of parenting and I'm afraid too many parents these days are so wrapped up in their own drama, they let this fall by the wayside. I don't know how we, as a society, can control that. Lord knows, CPS, in most states are lacking. We all have to pay attention and take action when necessary.

 

[Trino]

I understand where you're coming from SW. But honestly, you may very well have a future serial killer living right next door at this very moment who just hasn't shown any extreme characteristics - yet. We all may have!

What we do to move our children in the direction of becoming productive members of society is to BE productive members of society by being good, responsible parents who provide a loving and stable home. Understanding our children and meeting their emotional needs is part of parenting and I'm afraid too many parents these days are so wrapped up in their own drama, they let this fall by the wayside. I don't know how we, as a society, can control that. Lord knows, CPS, in most states are lacking. We all have to pay attention and take action when necessary.

For many years I taught students whose parents mostly didn't give a d..... There are stories that will be with me for the rest of my life. One involved a 14 year old boy whose mother was supposed to come to school the next day because he got into trouble He plainly told me she wasn't coming because she was so drunk she couldn't stand up that morning. By 15 he had fathered two children.

Another young lady went from being an A student to failing. Her mother stole her boyfriend away from her. She was living with her grandmother, trying to survive this. I've also taught a murderer, a child molester, a child who was murdered, and many kids who are now in prison.

What happened? If you were at parent conferences you would know. Of 150 kids I taught about 20 parents showed up, and mostly they were the parents of good kids. What I've learned is that in most cases an A student is an A student no matter what the curriculum, no matter what the technology, no matter what test he/she is given, and no matter who the teacher is. The key to a better education is the parent who raised these kids.

 

[Fairy1]

For many years I taught students whose parents mostly didn't give a d..... There are stories that will be with me for the rest of my life. One involved a 14 year old boy whose mother was supposed to come to school the next day because he got into trouble He plainly told me she wasn't coming because she was so drunk she couldn't stand up that morning. By 15 he had fathered two children.

Another young lady went from being an A student to failing. Her mother stole her boyfriend away from her. She was living with her grandmother, trying to survive this. I've also taught a murderer, a child molester, a child who was murdered, and many kids who are now in prison.

What happened? If you were at parent conferences you would know. Of 150 kids I taught about 20 parents showed up, and mostly they were the parents of good kids. What I've learned is that in most cases an A student is an A student no matter what the curriculum, no matter what the technology, no matter what test he/she is given, and no matter who the teacher is. The key to a better education is the parent who raised these kids.

Well Trino, that makes my heart hurt! But I know you're right. I just don't know how anyone can expect kids - of any age - who are facing challenges that would be overwhelming to most adults come out of it perfectly normal, adjusted and unscathed. It's not reasonable or realistic.

 

[Bobbisangel]

This overall case is still troublesome bc, at some point in the future, this child will eventually melt into our social landscape, leaving the potential for devastating and violent repercussions down the road. Which raises a conundrum within our society. Just how do we deal with children who are convicted of murder? Is it possible to move them in the direction of becoming productive members of society? Or does death's stain leave an indelible mark? One that is apt to raise its ugly head in the future?

It seems to me that the judicial system is going to have to figure out what they are going to do with these young kids that commit murder. It seems like they just get younger every day. They are going to have to get something into place for the young ones. They can't just keep sending them back home.

If there is to be any hope for this boy and others like him they will have to under go intensive therapy. Whether that will help or not no one knows yet but it is worth a try. I think these kids should be in inpatient therapy though where they can continue to get their schooling like they do in detention but have individual and group therapy. With this boy a therapist is going to have to get down to the reason he committed these murders. Why the boy believes he wanted to murder his dad and Tim. His reasoning might not even make sense to us but it is a real reason to him. Once that reason is discovered maybe with a therapists help he can work through that and learn other ways of dealing with his problems. I don't know but I don't think he should be back out in society until he can come to terms with these murders and why they shouldn't have happened....what other options he had.

His mother not believing that he committed these murders really bothers me. I can't see how she will be a help to him if she clings to that belief. She will see no need for him to have therapy and this boy will probably end up worse off then he is now. Does she not realize that he could get mad at her like he did his dad? I hope the judge or this boy's attorney make sure this boy is court ordered to go to therapy if he is allowed to go home. Still, if mom is negative about his going to therapy it is going to confuse this boy and he may not even cooperate with a therapist. I think the judge is going to have to lay down some strict rules before he turns this boy over to his mom.

I'm anxious to see what the judge comes up with. There was talk about this boy going to some kind of facility for young kids where he would get therapy and I really hope the judge decides on that until he is 18 yrs...at least.

 

[fran]

Originally Posted by fran
Why weren't the child's finger prints on the gun?
Who did the UNIDENTIFIED prints belong to?

How could they charge the child with murder, claim his Chipmunk gun is the murder weapon, yet they CANNOT place the gun in the child's hand???????

Looks to me like they have a HUGE problem. Course, this is the least of them, regarding this case.

The first problem................LACK of Competency Hearing.

Problem, problem, problem.

JMHO
fran

I doubt that the lack of competency hearing is going to be an issue.

Since it is the law in Az that a child of 8 can be charged with a crime then I find it highly unlikely that he is the only young juvenile that has plead guilty.

I think Judge Roca knows the laws of his own state and most likely even consulted with scholars who excel in the laws of Az. or perhaps other Judges in the state.

imoo

In response to your post, I do believe Judge Roca knows the law. I congratulate him on being more educated in the rules of our land than a 9 yo child. He's to be commended in finding a LEGAL way to make this case go away.

However, avoiding the elephant in the room doesn't make the FACT go away. They have NOT been able to place the alleged murder weapon in this child's hands. Quite the contrary, according to forensics. The prints were UNIDENTIFIED.

As I've said before I'm not trained in the law. But I see many appealable possibilities in this case. Sealing the files may not cut it. Because the pros chose to make an exception with this child, this case, and plaster PART of their investigation on the internet, they've opened more doors to view the incompetent way this case was handled for everyone to see.

Maybe, just maybe, someone who has more legal knowledge than this 9 yo child will see how unjust the law's treatment of this child has been. Perhaps that same person will offer their services to save this child from a life-time guilt. They may even get lucky and solve this crime.

JMHO
fran

PS.....Seems the court is already in the process of sweeping this case, this child under the rug. The def requested an 'expert' for evaluation of the child pre-sentencing on 2/24 and the judge hasn't responded. IIRC they're supposed to have the sentencing hearing this week. Seems they're already letting the child down even after he tells them what they want to hear.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by fran
Why weren't the child's finger prints on the gun?
Who did the UNIDENTIFIED prints belong to?

How could they charge the child with murder, claim his Chipmunk gun is the murder weapon, yet they CANNOT place the gun in the child's hand???????

Looks to me like they have a HUGE problem. Course, this is the least of them, regarding this case.

The first problem................LACK of Competency Hearing.

Problem, problem, problem.

JMHO
fran




In response to your post, I do believe Judge Roca knows the law. I congratulate him on being more educated in the rules of our land than a 9 yo child. He's to be commended in finding a LEGAL way to make this case go away.

However, avoiding the elephant in the room doesn't make the FACT go away. They have NOT been able to place the alleged murder weapon in this child's hands. Quite the contrary, according to forensics. The prints were UNIDENTIFIED.

As I've said before I'm not trained in the law. But I see many appealable possibilities in this case. Sealing the files may not cut it. Because the pros chose to make an exception with this child, this case, and plaster PART of their investigation on the internet, they've opened more doors to view the incompetent way this case was handled for everyone to see.

Maybe, just maybe, someone who has more legal knowledge than this 9 yo child will see how unjust the law's treatment of this child has been. Perhaps that same person will offer their services to save this child from a life-time guilt. They may even get lucky and solve this crime.

JMHO
fran

PS.....Seems the court is already in the process of sweeping this case, this child under the rug. The def requested an 'expert' for evaluation of the child pre-sentencing on 2/24 and the judge hasn't responded. IIRC they're supposed to have the sentencing hearing this week. Seems they're already letting the child down even after he tells them what they want to hear.

That is totally unfair and unfounded, imo, Fran. With 3/4 of the discovery results not made available for viewing we have no idea if they couldn't put the weapon in this boy's hands. They asked for clearer prints from the boy's fingers. We do not know if they got that and I see no reason why they wouldnt nor do we know what results were found after then. Nor do we know what further testing was done on the weapon itself when the experts recommended it be sent out for further testing.

I don't think the prints were unidentifiable, i.e, matching someone else but maybe smudged and only showing a partial print pattern and that is why they needed clearer fingerprints from the boy. (the middle and ring fingers)

I have never heard of a defendant appealing a plea deal that he and he alone enacted. I rather doubt since 8 year olds can be charged and convicted of a crime in AZ that this is the first plea deal that a young juvenile has made. I am sure Roca is fully aware of what juveniles did or did not do in prior cases.

They have plenty of time to evaluate the boy. The DA said the disposition of the case could take from 60 to 90 days. I am sure JR has other court commitments besides this case, alone.

Well you are entitled to your opinion but the 1/4 that they have put out shows me the investigation was vast. Much was done and we have only seen a small part of their investigation with 3/4 of it sealed.

imo