AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[OrdinaryLife]

So, I think I understand your reasoning OBE. You are basing your 'opinion' on assumptions?

Would this mean that, IF you were on a jury, you would vote the same way with what you assume now?........

Or would you want to KNOW the answers before making such a decision?

TIA,
fran

I have to agree with Fran here. Assumptions and opinions are one thing, but knowing the *real* answers are something else. We do not have any of that. At all. I'm still waiting for the real facts vs what we only read that is tossed out there that does not add up as the "whole". We all know the *advertiser censored*-ume thing. I won't do it. Nor, regardless of personal opinion in this case, should anyone. IMHO This case is diluted in every aspect of fact. We only get the bits and pieces of documents and not the picture as it could add up to.

I'll wait. Patiently. I will not convict a child before there is every possible bit of info available. Victims, family, and child dynamics.

imo
imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So, I think I understand your reasoning OBE. You are basing your 'opinion' on assumptions?

Would this mean that, IF you were on a jury, you would vote the same way with what you assume now?........

Or would you want to KNOW the answers before making such a decision?

TIA,
fran

Everyone on a message board presumes until all the facts are known but somethings don't have to be presumed as they have been linked on the official court site.

The supplemental document discovery listed that almost 400 pages of the DPS investigation were turned over, along with a 26 page lab report. Those are facts, yet on the site less than 100 pages of the dps report is available to the public, so I think it is safe to assume there is still much evidence that we do not know about. Hence the sudden change of plea IMO it all points to the boy.

I am not on his jury. I am on a message board which is based on opinions. As far as I know he was never going to even be tried by a jury but in front of the presiding Judge.

But, yes, with what has been disclosed thus far ,it is my opinion that he did this crime all by himself.

I have never believed in coincidences, not in this case and not in another. All the things Linda has listed are not coincidences by any means, IMO. They are very strong pieces of circumstantial evidence that all points toward guilt.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have to agree with Fran here. Assumptions and opinions are one thing, but knowing the *real* answers are something else. We do not have any of that. At all. I'm still waiting for the real facts vs what we only read that is tossed out there that does not add up as the "whole". We all know the *advertiser censored*-ume thing. I won't do it. Nor, regardless of personal opinion in this case, should anyone. IMHO This case is diluted in every aspect of fact. We only get the bits and pieces of documents and not the picture as it could add up to.

I'll wait. Patiently. I will not convict a child before there is every possible bit of info available. Victims, family, and child dynamics.

imo
imo

I understand and respect that all opinions here will never be the same. I have never had a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. How boring that would be imo as if only listening to our own voices over and over. But we don't convict anyone here, OL. We carry no weight or are connected in anyway to the judicial system presiding over this case. It is what it is and it will end the way JR decides when he hears the plea deal.

This is a message board and everyone is entitled to opinions. That is what message boards are all about. An exchange of ideas, theories and opinions.

And it is my opinion that this boy is indeed guilty of murdering these two men.

There isn't one thing pointing away from this boy's guilt, imo.

imoo

 

[Trino]

Well we do know that his father used slapping as a form of punishment/discipline.

We know that this boy was living with a meth dealer.

We know that the house this boy was living in was a complete pig sty.

We know that there were a variety of unsecured guns available to this child.

There is plenty right there that give me reason to suspect abuse/neglect. I am sure a child social worker would take issue with the things that I have listed. IMOO

While WE know Tim MAY HAVE been a dealer, he was not big time. Who's to say what VR knew? VR did not use. There is no evidence of drugs in the house or truck or any which may have been around the boy.

The house was NOT a complete pig sty. It was messy. There is a difference.

There was no evidence of neglect. The DA, prosecuting attorney, and judge have found no evidence of this. Why dwell on it?

Guns are available to many children, even as young as 8, in that area. It's common. This is not a city environment. It's not an environment where guns are barred to children. People in this area hunt.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I understand and respect that all opinions here will never be the same. I have never had a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. How boring that would be imo as if only listening to our own voices over and over. But we don't convict anyone here, OL. We carry no weight or are connected in anyway to the judicial system presiding over this case. It is what it is and it will end the way JR decides when he hears the plea deal.

This is a message board and everyone is entitled to opinions. That is what message boards are all about. An exchange of ideas, theories and opinions.

And it is my opinion that this boy is indeed guilty of murdering these two men.

There isn't one thing pointing away from this boy's guilt, imo.

imoo

I have, with great respect, no idea where this is coming from. I made a response to Fran's post that was not directed towards anyone and shared what I thought in that regard. I am very much aware of what a message board is all about otherwise I would not be a member here for as long as I have been. There is absolutely nothing in my post that shows any disrespect to anyones opinion, theories, or thoughts. I was sharing my own and quoted a previous post before responding myself. There was no one person it was directed towards.

Be well.

 

[fran]

It just seems to me, that upon release of the 'plea' possibility, the witness statements and content got lost. Of course, anyone who attempted to read them realized they were only able to view some of them due to the poor photo quality. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but, to be honest, it goes along with St. Johns' investigative techniques, imho......NOT what it should be.

I’m not going to mention this man’s name, but if you’ve been closely following this case, you’ll probably know who I’m talking about. I’m absolutely not accusing this man of anything. But, his name was brought up, time and time again, by fellow employees and police witness statements.

The day after the incident, LE were questioning several of the victim’s co-workers. Of course, LE didn’t finish all of the questioning, because they stopped as soon as the child’s alleged confession was relayed to the officers. The additional witness statements weren’t taken for several days, 1 ½ or so weeks later. Which, IMHO, was unfortunate, because honestly, the second set of fellow employee statements seemed more guarded than the first, some even, well,…………..perhaps rehearsed.

There was one person that several of the victim’s friends and co-workers pointed to. Not accusing, just that LE might want to speak to him. The guy who’d quit in a huff in October. He didn’t get along with the victims, he drove a small white pick-up truck, he was a former Army Ranger, he’d been acting differently over the past year since his son was found murdered in his burnt out vehicle after a barroom fight.

LE didn’t speak to this man until later. The discussion went, contrary to everyone else who knew the victims, he claimed he got along well with Tim, didn’t really know Vince all that well, …………but,………it gets even more interesting as the interview proceeds. He claimed Tim had called him a few times since he’d left the mutual employer, but then he changed it and said, he’d actually called Tim about a week before he was killed. Then he goes on to say that it was just to see how things were going.

During the questioning, we learn that he knew Vince just a little and did know he just got married but did not know he had a son.
He has a 22, since 2000, but he hasn’t shot it, ever. It’s at home. Single action rifle. He claims he hadn’t shot a gun since he returned from VietNam, but then he changed and said, well, he did go shooting with his brother once after his return.

As for his vehicle,……….well, he drives a black 2008 pick up and yes, he does have a white truck but his daughter is driving it in Phoenix……………this was in mid-November, but in October when he was working in St. Johns he was driving the white vehicle yet he told LE his daughter had been driving the white truck for a ‘couple of months.’

When asked where he was on the day of the murders, this person told LE that he was at work. Since he doesn’t start until the evening, the officer??? To which the guy said, well, he did get to work about 5:30 that day, driving through St. John at about 4:30 or so. He drives through St. John at 4, 4:30, 4:45.

Tim told someone a week or so before he was murdered, someone wanted to kill him. This guy called Tim a week or so before he was murdered.
Has a white vehicle.
Has a 22.
Was ‘close’ to the scene at the time of the murders.
Didn’t like either victim (or their ‘amigo’ friend, who wasn’t there that day)
Didn’t know about Vince’s son.
Trained to kill.
His description of his relationship with the two victims completely contradicts EVERYONE else who knew both the victims and him.

There is no coincidence when it comes to murder.

Comments welcome.

JMHO
fran

 

[OrdinaryLife]

It just seems to me, that upon release of the 'plea' possibility, the witness statements and content got lost. Of course, anyone who attempted to read them realized they were only able to view some of them due to the poor photo quality. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but, to be honest, it goes along with St. Johns' investigative techniques, imho......NOT what it should be.

I’m not going to mention this man’s name, but if you’ve been closely following this case, you’ll probably know who I’m talking about. I’m absolutely not accusing this man of anything. But, his name was brought up, time and time again, by fellow employees and police witness statements.

The day after the incident, LE were questioning several of the victim’s co-workers. Of course, LE didn’t finish all of the questioning, because they stopped as soon as the child’s alleged confession was relayed to the officers. The additional witness statements weren’t taken for several days, 1 ½ or so weeks later. Which, IMHO, was unfortunate, because honestly, the second set of fellow employee statements seemed more guarded than the first, some even, well,…………..perhaps rehearsed.

There was one person that several of the victim’s friends and co-workers pointed to. Not accusing, just that LE might want to speak to him. The guy who’d quit in a huff in October. He didn’t get along with the victims, he drove a small white pick-up truck, he was a former Army Ranger, he’d been acting differently over the past year since his son was found murdered in his burnt out vehicle after a barroom fight.

LE didn’t speak to this man until later. The discussion went, contrary to everyone else who knew the victims, he claimed he got along well with Tim, didn’t really know Vince all that well, …………but,………it gets even more interesting as the interview proceeds. He claimed Tim had called him a few times since he’d left the mutual employer, but then he changed it and said, he’d actually called Tim about a week before he was killed. Then he goes on to say that it was just to see how things were going.

During the questioning, we learn that he knew Vince just a little and did know he just got married but did not know he had a son.
He has a 22, since 2000, but he hasn’t shot it, ever. It’s at home. Single action rifle. He claims he hadn’t shot a gun since he returned from VietNam, but then he changed and said, well, he did go shooting with his brother once after his return.

As for his vehicle,……….well, he drives a black 2008 pick up and yes, he does have a white truck but his daughter is driving it in Phoenix……………this was in mid-November, but in October when he was working in St. Johns he was driving the white vehicle yet he told LE his daughter had been driving the white truck for a ‘couple of months.’

When asked where he was on the day of the murders, this person told LE that he was at work. Since he doesn’t start until the evening, the officer??? To which the guy said, well, he did get to work about 5:30 that day, driving through St. John at about 4:30 or so. He drives through St. John at 4, 4:30, 4:45.

Tim told someone a week or so before he was murdered, someone wanted to kill him. This guy called Tim a week or so before he was murdered.
Has a white vehicle.
Has a 22.
Was ‘close’ to the scene at the time of the murders.
Didn’t like either victim (or their ‘amigo’ friend, who wasn’t there that day)
Didn’t know about Vince’s son.
Trained to kill.
His description of his relationship with the two victims completely contradicts EVERYONE else who knew both the victims and him.

There is no coincidence when it comes to murder.

Comments welcome.

JMHO
fran

I find it interesting that you came to the thoughts that I did after much reading of interviews. The only person, imo, that gave me a hinky in regrads to his responses to LE interview questions. I wonder if they ever followed up. I'm guessing not likely which bothers me. I'm Joe Shmoe and it bothered me. I would have followed up even if it meant I was wrong to be sure I resolved what did not sound right during questioning, his responses, and behaviour. Especially the .22 gun that he owned. Call me crazy, but I would have rather checked it all out and close all parts of the person puzzle than leave open possibilities. But, that's just me. I have a relentless tenacity when it comes to being sure of a question/problem. I like it resolved in every aspect possible. But, that's just me. FWIW, just sayin'....

 

[colette]

I just think there is a lot of digging to find another killer. If this guy had something to do with the murders, the boy's lawyer would have brought that out. He is getting a plea deal because he confessed and the evidence must follow the confession. I would bet that the boy has still been talking about how he murdered the two men....

 

[OrdinaryLife]

There is nothing out there that states that the Defense is the one who wants the plea deal. Nothing. This "deal" could actually be from the DA's office for all we know. We shall see soon.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There is nothing out there that states that the Defense is the one who wants the plea deal. Nothing. This "deal" could actually be from the DA's office for all we know. We shall see soon.

If the defense did not want a plea deal then there would be no need to even have a hearing. If he knew that his client was innocent and the evidence didn't point to him he would tell the DA "no deal, see ya in court" and a plea deal would also have to be blessed by his mother who is his custodian.

The last time someone mentioned seeing Eryn's myspace page it was set to "crushed" and I am sure she is. She knows this is going to stick like glue on her son for the rest of his life. I feel a lot of sympathy for his mother and all of his family.

One media site out of AZ. said the plea deal has already been struck and needs to be finalized in the hearing of the 19th to see if JR is going to accept it or deny it. The boy will probably sign it in front of Roca.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I just think there is a lot of digging to find another killer. If this guy had something to do with the murders, the boy's lawyer would have brought that out. He is getting a plea deal because he confessed and the evidence must follow the confession. I would bet that the boy has still been talking about how he murdered the two men....

I agree, colette and all along the defense team has had investigators of their own. Imo there is no link but this boy to these murders.

IMO, you are right. He is pleading because the evidence points right at him and if he didn't plea and JR dismissed count one then that evidence would be used against him when he became an adult and he would be tried using that same evidence Brewer/Wood has seen and could get a very long prison term. So IMO, Brewer knows that evidence is valid and he could be convicted later if tried. That is why he wanted to deal so that it would resolve the case in the juvenile system rather years later in adult court.

imoo

 

[shadowraiths]

1st, as always, EXCELLENT post! I love reading your posts, as you know. FWIW.

2nd, that being said (your quote..I haven't read back everything or your research besides this post, not sure where you stand, and I am SO interested) do you think the child killed these 2 men?

I have mixed feelings at this point. Although the documents indicate his gun was used for at least two shots, that means little to me as the gun was unsecured and therefore easily accessible to anyone. Additionally, from my read of the reports there's still a missing 22. Furthermore, the trajectories—which i attempted to recreate in a 3D model (see the Tragjectories vid on youtube, where blue indicates originating direction.)—leave more questions than they do answers. Now, while it is my understanding that the headshots occurred after the victims were down, only two of the torso shots seem to support the boy shooting them. And neither of those were fatal or, for that matter, even debilitating. That is, from my read of the autopsy report along with the trajectory mock-up. Then again, since I have no medical training whatsoever, I could be way, way off. Regardless, just looking at the trajectories and assuming they are even remotely correct, they appear to be all over the place from both a directionality as well as locale. And given that we're talking about two grown men here, I cannot help but to wonder if there were, in fact, multiple shooters. Whatever the case, while I am leaning toward this child being involved, at this point in time, I remain unconvinced that he acted alone.

 

[shadowraiths]

It just seems to me, that upon release of the 'plea' possibility, the witness statements and content got lost. Of course, anyone who attempted to read them realized they were only able to view some of them due to the poor photo quality. I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but, to be honest, it goes along with St. Johns' investigative techniques, imho......NOT what it should be.

I’m not going to mention this man’s name, but if you’ve been closely following this case, you’ll probably know who I’m talking about. I’m absolutely not accusing this man of anything. But, his name was brought up, time and time again, by fellow employees and police witness statements.

The day after the incident, LE were questioning several of the victim’s co-workers. Of course, LE didn’t finish all of the questioning, because they stopped as soon as the child’s alleged confession was relayed to the officers. The additional witness statements weren’t taken for several days, 1 ½ or so weeks later. Which, IMHO, was unfortunate, because honestly, the second set of fellow employee statements seemed more guarded than the first, some even, well,…………..perhaps rehearsed.

There was one person that several of the victim’s friends and co-workers pointed to. Not accusing, just that LE might want to speak to him. The guy who’d quit in a huff in October. He didn’t get along with the victims, he drove a small white pick-up truck, he was a former Army Ranger, he’d been acting differently over the past year since his son was found murdered in his burnt out vehicle after a barroom fight.

LE didn’t speak to this man until later. The discussion went, contrary to everyone else who knew the victims, he claimed he got along well with Tim, didn’t really know Vince all that well, …………but,………it gets even more interesting as the interview proceeds. He claimed Tim had called him a few times since he’d left the mutual employer, but then he changed it and said, he’d actually called Tim about a week before he was killed. Then he goes on to say that it was just to see how things were going.

During the questioning, we learn that he knew Vince just a little and did know he just got married but did not know he had a son.
He has a 22, since 2000, but he hasn’t shot it, ever. It’s at home. Single action rifle. He claims he hadn’t shot a gun since he returned from VietNam, but then he changed and said, well, he did go shooting with his brother once after his return.

As for his vehicle,……….well, he drives a black 2008 pick up and yes, he does have a white truck but his daughter is driving it in Phoenix……………this was in mid-November, but in October when he was working in St. Johns he was driving the white vehicle yet he told LE his daughter had been driving the white truck for a ‘couple of months.’

When asked where he was on the day of the murders, this person told LE that he was at work. Since he doesn’t start until the evening, the officer??? To which the guy said, well, he did get to work about 5:30 that day, driving through St. John at about 4:30 or so. He drives through St. John at 4, 4:30, 4:45.

Tim told someone a week or so before he was murdered, someone wanted to kill him. This guy called Tim a week or so before he was murdered.
Has a white vehicle.
Has a 22.
Was ‘close’ to the scene at the time of the murders.
Didn’t like either victim (or their ‘amigo’ friend, who wasn’t there that day)
Didn’t know about Vince’s son.
Trained to kill.
His description of his relationship with the two victims completely contradicts EVERYONE else who knew both the victims and him.

There is no coincidence when it comes to murder.

Comments welcome.

JMHO
fran

Nice synopsis. There is another bit that is missing from the above. Several witnesses stated that Timothy spent most of his evenings at the bar and that he'd been involved in altercations. When I saw that bit about the man's son, I wondered if he might have thought Timothy was involved in his son's death. Which, if that were the case, would be arguably understandable motive. Just sayin...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have mixed feelings at this point. Although the documents indicate his gun was used for at least two shots, that means little to me as the gun was unsecured and therefore easily accessible to anyone. Additionally, from my read of the reports there's still a missing 22. Furthermore, the trajectories—which i attempted to recreate in a 3D model (see the Tragjectories vid on youtube, where blue indicates originating direction.)—leave more questions than they do answers. Now, while it is my understanding that the headshots occurred after the victims were down, only two of the torso shots seem to support the boy shooting them. And neither of those were fatal or, for that matter, even debilitating. That is, from my read of the autopsy report along with the trajectory mock-up. Then again, since I have no medical training whatsoever, I could be way, way off. Regardless, just looking at the trajectories and assuming they are even remotely correct, they appear to be all over the place from both a directionality as well as locale. And given that we're talking about two grown men here, I cannot help but to wonder if there were, in fact, multiple shooters. Whatever the case, while I am leaning toward this child being involved, at this point in time, I remain unconvinced that he acted alone.

Your trajectory on youtube is interesting. Of course none of us know the postions that the victims were exactly in when hit each and everytime.

Did you make the scale of the boy to be at 4' 6-1/2 inches tall (54 1/2 inches)? It is in the documents I believe under the section where he is seen by the intake doctors or staff. So the 4 feet first given must have just been a quesstimate.

Would you please tell me where I can find the latest information on the supposed missing gun that belongs to Leroy Romero? Have investigators stated in their latest document dumps that it is still missing? thanks.

imoo

 

[shadowraiths]

Your trajectory on youtube is interesting. Of course none of us know the postions that the victims were exactly in when hit each and everytime.

Did you make the scale of the boy to be at 4' 6-1/2 inches tall (54 1/2 inches)? It is in the documents I believe under the section where he is seen by the intake doctors or staff. So the 4 feet first given must have just been a quesstimate.

imoo

Yes I did it to them to scale, though for some reason, I thought the boy was 4'8". As far as positioning, I could not agree more! In fact, I originally planned to do a full crime scene recreation (i.e., model the house, the positions of the bodies, blood splatter, screen door w/the hole, etcetera) but due to other commitments, didn't have time.

That being said, I know some about ballistics, and even if this involved an accused adult, I am admittedly a bit flumoxed wrt the trajectory angles. In fact, the only way I can see these trajectories occurring (minus the two lower ones), is that the shooter was positioned above the men, say, on the stairway. And this, btw, is one reason I wanted to do a recreation. Just to get a gist of how it may have played out. I still may if I can find the time.

Would you please tell me where I can find the latest information on the supposed missing gun that belongs to Leroy Romero? Have investigators stated in their latest document dumps that it is still missing? thanks.

The only doc dumps I've seen are those I linked to a few posts back, and from my quick scan of those docs, I did not see any mention of the missing gun being found.

 

[Oklahoma Mike]

Let's admit it, there have been those on this board ready to throw the boy under the bus from almost the beginning of the discussion. You know you have. Maybe the boy did it. I have never thought it impossible. What most troubles me is that LE seems to have made a similar fast judgement, and almost all of their rapid decision to charge the boy came from the confession. I mentioned in my last post the similarity between this case and the murder of Stephanie Crowe in 1998. Within 2 or 3 days they had their killer, the girl's older brother, Michael Crowe. They had a confession. They further implicated 2 of his friends allegding some conspiracy and one of those friend's confessed. LE was so sure they had everything wrapped up they did not investigate any other leads, even though a strong one came in. As it turns out, all three of the boys were innocent, proven by DNA. Another person was eventually convicted in the case. Had these boys not had strong family support and stuck together they might have been executed by now.
I dare anybody to read the full accounts of the Stephanie Crowe murder and the Michael Crowe charges and not see numerous similarities in this case. Especially in how the confessions came about and how fast the authorities concluded the case was closed and investigated only what they thought would prove their original theory.
If anybody wishes to point out how ridiculous my ideas are without thoroughly researching the other case, well, put up or shut up.

 

[PattyCake]

I haven't posted in a long while but I've stated before that it concerns me about the rush to judgement.

I have to wonder out loud - what if... what if? A little boy could be convinced by very capable LE, to confess and make it detailed. I'm still on the fence that this child is for certain - guilty.

I have to also ponder. WHY is LE the one making the deal with essentially no time served? Do they maybe not have a case they could take back to the courts when the child is an adult? Do they maybe have egg on their face and this is the best resolution all around? Or should they confess to the world they got it all wrong and blamed an innocent child?

Not sure if he's at all innocent. Nor guilty. But the fact that there's been no info on the definitive evidence, what makes so many so sure this little boy truly did what he did?

 

[Fairy1]

"Rush to judgement." A good way to describe what we've seen here. I don't deny that much of what we know points to this boy being the killer. However, we can all agree that we don't know everything there is to know and there is much to question - even if LE can't be bothered. If there is any chance at all that the boy is innocent, I sincerely worry about his well-being.

And I would add, even if it was "his" gun, we really dont' know if he was the shooter.

 

[Trino]

"Rush to judgement." A good way to describe what we've seen here. I don't deny that much of what we know points to this boy being the killer. However, we can all agree that we don't know everything there is to know and there is much to question - even if LE can't be bothered. If there is any chance at all that the boy is innocent, I sincerely worry about his well-being.

And I would add, even if it was "his" gun, we really dont' know if he was the shooter.

Again, let it be said that we have been privy to 98 pages out of 400 pages of documents surrounding this case. We know 1/4 of what has transpired. Since there will be a plea bargain, it appears the things we don't know are the most important.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I haven't posted in a long while but I've stated before that it concerns me about the rush to judgment.

I have to wonder out loud - what if... what if? A little boy could be convinced by very capable LE, to confess and make it detailed. I'm still on the fence that this child is for certain - guilty.

I have to also ponder. WHY is LE the one making the deal with essentially no time served? Do they maybe not have a case they could take back to the courts when the child is an adult? Do they maybe have egg on their face and this is the best resolution all around? Or should they confess to the world they got it all wrong and blamed an innocent child?

Not sure if he's at all innocent. Nor guilty. But the fact that there's been no info on the definitive evidence, what makes so many so sure this little boy truly did what he did?

90% of all criminal cases are plead out. Most criminals are guilty of their crimes and it really saves time and money to do a plea and get it over with. This case has lingered on now for over three months. Much money has been spent. Even the state of AZ has had to pay for his defense and all the care and supervision he has been given.

The time line and those who knew him saying he is capable of this is what makes me think this boy is guilty, including the list of other things, that Linda has posted. The witness who saw him outside shortly after the gunfire, petting his dog and walking away from the crime scene.

It certainly is in the best interest of this boy to plea out. If not it seems the defense is very worried that JR is thinking about dismissing count one and if that were to happen when this boy became of age to be tried as an adult he could do serious prison time, maybe even life.

Actually the defense attorneys clarified their statements. He will do no jail time in State detention but could possibly do time in a county detention center.

imo