Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Satchie]

Suppose there was a plan where MS was only supposed to help with the incineration of murder victims where DM was the actual murderer.

Would MS be guilty of M1 if he:

• helped to get the murder weapon,
• helped to plan the disposal method for the evidence,
• knew that the victim had been murdered by DM
  and then
• helped with the clean up?

MOO

I believe not, no. My reasoning is that the criminal justice system is based on proving specific unlawful actions were committed by specific individuals against specific victims.

Someone may have a plan to kill someone in the future, but if it never turns into reality, they won't have committed a crime.

 

[don_quixote]

And another disgusting detail... the .32 would NOT be the preferable calibre (vs the .380) for defense against a human, where in a defensive situation the target zone is torso / centre of mass.

However, although the .32 is not much a defensive weapon, it is a capable calibre for an assassin / hit. A close range head shot, particularly if the specific part of the skull where the bullet enters is thinner bone, (eg an eye socket)... a .32, (or even a .22) can cause very devastating damage. At close range, through a thin part of the skull, the.32 bullet is able to penetrate an entry through the skull. The bullet will fragment from passing through the bone, the now fragmented bullet continues it's rotation and the diameter of the damage is much larger than the entry hole. Each individual fragment now has reduced kinetic energy, and is thus unable to penetrate the skull to exit, so it instead ricochets off the inside of the skull causing yet further destruction of soft tissue. Total destruction to the brain. Less mess, no exit wound. And a very dead target.

Neither would be a .380. It's a blowback cartridge. Very low energy. Perhaps, DM was following von Clausewitz's teachings that attack is the best defense.

 

[Just4TB]

Which brings back MJ mentioning the prohibited status of the revolver. Why does it matter whether it's prohibited in Canada if his supply is from the US. Or was it his value proposition?

Street gun values are unaffected by prohibited status.
However, where the prohibited class impacts this case, is because DM showed the jury his father's PAL.
Unless his father's PAL included Prohib class, (which is unlikely), then DM cannot properly argue or pretend that WM had these handguns in the house as collectibles.

 

[don_quixote]

Street gun values are unaffected by prohibited status.
However, where the prohibited class impacts this case, is because DM showed the jury his father's PAL.
Unless his father's PAL included Prohib class, (which is unlikely), then DM cannot properly argue or pretend that WM had these handguns in the house as collectibles.

I don't think MWJ cared too much about DM's father having any license. But it was MWJ who addressed DM's price objection by saying that the gun is prohibited in Canada.

 

[Just4TB]

Neither would be a .380. It's a blowback cartridge. Very low energy. Perhaps, DM was following von Clausewitz's teachings that attack is the best defense.

There is no such thing as a blowback cartridge. Blowback is the gun's mechanism for semi-auto loading of next cartridge. I will agree that the PPK is a blowback design gun.
Most .380 handgun rounds are FMJ. Might not be great for torso shots - but a headshot from a .380 FMJ at close range is highly likely to have an exit wound.

 

[Grey-St]

Street gun values are unaffected by prohibited status.
However, where the prohibited class impacts this case, is because DM showed the jury his father's PAL.
Unless his father's PAL included Prohib class, (which is unlikely), then DM cannot properly argue or pretend that WM had these handguns in the house as collectibles.

Ahhh, okay, now we're talking.
My mind was spinning with all the gun talk, but now you've hooked me .

 

[Just4TB]

I don't think MWJ cared too much about DM's father having any license. But it was MWJ who addressed DM's price objection by saying that the gun is prohibited in Canada.

Quite a salesman. Street prices of illicit guns are unaffected by prohib status, but legal prohibs are very low demand and price.

 

[canadiangirl]

While I'm not an expert on being strung out and what you remember. I do suspect that this kid didn't hear someone admit he killed and burned a body every day so quite possible it would be something you'd remember.

Lets not forget - this kid - who you've determined was strung out and unreliable - told the vice principal at school and went to the police on his own. So you are saying he just decided to talk to police about something he's not sure about completely unprompted.

I'm no expert either lol however I've been drunk and not heard things correctly so I can only assume what hard drugs could do to you.
I know it's also possible to be paranoid on drugs...

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[don_quixote]

There is no such thing as a blowback cartridge. Blowback is the gun's mechanism for semi-auto loading of next cartridge. I will agree that the PPK is a blowback design gun.
Most .380 handgun rounds are FMJ. Might not be great for torso shots - but a headshot from a .380 FMJ at close range is highly likely to have an exit wound.

I will disagree.
1. Blowback can't practically handle higher energy cartridges (I think there are only 1 or 2 blowback models for the relatively low energy 9 mm lug.)
2. Barrel locking designs are not demanded or unreliable in low energy cartridges

So yeah, there are cartridges that are used exclusively (or almost exclusively) in blowback designs.

 

[don_quixote]

Quite a salesman. Street prices of illicit guns are unaffected by prohib status, but legal prohibs are very low demand and price.

I agree for the legal sales. The fact is that he used the prohibited status to justify the price. And he made the sale.

 

[Jealoushe]

This is really interesting. I didn't realize this happened in Canada, releasing such things to the public.


I feel like there would have to be a pertinent public interest, and justifiable circumstances for releasing any interrogations or video statements. Seems like pretty private stuff.

It's pretty common to have these videos out, many are shown on shows like 48hrs and forensic files etc.

 

[Just4TB]

I will disagree.
1. Blowback can't practically handle higher energy cartridges (I think there are only 1 or 2 blowback models for the relatively low energy 9 mm lug.)
2. Barrel locking designs are not demanded or unreliable in low energy cartridges

So yeah, there are cartridges that are used exclusively (or almost exclusively) in blowback schemes.

I will agree that some cartridges are mostly used in / designed for blowback actions, and the .380 ACP is one of these. But there are revolvers chambered in .380 ACP, so to me, the cartridge itself is not blowback. Perhaps we are splitting hairs.

As for defensive stopping power, a .380 would certainly not be my first choice. Between a .380 and a.32, the .32 would be preferable for a close-up headshot.

 

[Just4TB]

I agree for the legal sales. The fact is that he used the prohibited status to justify the price. And he made the sale.

The only argument I could imagine for a prohib to be worth more on the street, is if it was prohib due to being a short barrel gun (eg the Bodyguard). Easier to conceal.

That .32 S&W is prohibited due to the calibre alone, and with the longer barrel, would not be a "choice" weapon on the street. Quite a salesman.

 

[don_quixote]

I will agree that some cartridges are mostly used in / designed for blowback actions, and the .380 ACP is one of these. But there are revolvers chambered in .380 ACP, so to me, the cartridge itself is not blowback. Perhaps we are splitting hairs.

As for defensive stopping power, a .380 would certainly not be my first choice. Between a .380 and a.32, the .32 would be preferable for a close-up headshot.

Yeah, splitting them into quarter-hairs. And doing that in style at 30 minutes before midnight.

.380 is a suicide or execution/hitman cartridge. Agree on that.

 

[don_quixote]

The only argument I could imagine for a prohib to be worth more on the street, is if it was prohib due to being a short barrel gun (eg the Bodyguard). Easier to conceal.

That .32 S&W is prohibited due to the calibre alone, and with the longer barrel, would not be a "choice" weapon on the street. Quite a salesman.

Vary bizarre, I agree. I thought it would be a snubnose revolver. But it isn't. PPK, ok James Bond gun. But otherwise, why not take Glocks? They are abundant, reliable and easy to operate.

 

[Just4TB]

Vary bizarre, I agree. I thought it would be a snubnose revolver. But it isn't. PPK, ok James Bond gun. But otherwise, why not take Glocks? They are abundant, reliable and easy to operate.

Yes. Likely easier for DM to find ammo for a 9mm as well. But by then, he had already been duped into buying the .32 without any rounds.
Swindled by MWJ... (or as MWJ wanted people to believe, by one of the 500 friends whom also used his phone)

 

[huntergerrard]

If he did that, it would almost certainly result in a mistrial. Hence, I think its a pretty reasonable concern to have.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what would DM gain from a mistrial? Wouldn't be the same evidence, just a different jury? Or is there a chance another judge would not allow certain evidence, so DM may have better luck?

 

[huntergerrard]

This answers a longstanding question. CN is now confirmed to be one of the two girlfriends who went with DM on the Sailboat he rented, and in which, on it's return, the owner found blood, calling the cops.
Cops believed DM that one of the girls was menstruating, (and must have been twirling her tampon like a baton... smh.)

The "North Channel" is a popular sailing destination north of Manitoulin Island, from where DM rented the boat.

Sorry about the TMI, guys, but never in my life...nor any woman I know...have we been menstruating so heavily that it could resemble a crime scene. Unless the girl is naked, either some form of feminine product, or her clothes, would absorb the blood. Her bottoms may be bloody or ruined, but not the entire boat.

 

[mimimic]

What about conspiracy to commit a crime?

I believe not, no. My reasoning is that the criminal justice system is based on proving specific unlawful actions were committed by specific individuals against specific victims.

Someone may have a plan to kill someone in the future, but if it never turns into reality, they won't have committed a crime.

 

[canadiangirl]

Sorry about the TMI, guys, but never in my life...nor any woman I know...have we been menstruating so heavily that it could resemble a crime scene. Unless the girl is naked, either some form of feminine product, or her clothes, would absorb the blood. Her bottoms may be bloody or ruined, but not the entire boat.

I only recall hearing about droplets of blood. Of course if they were having sex.. Who knows?

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