Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Just4TB]

I only recall hearing about droplets of blood. Of course if they were having sex.. Who knows?

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Yes, you are correct. I located the link and re-read it - has been a while, somehow I recalled it being more than drops... a better memory you have.
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...boat_rented_by_dellan_millard_owner_says.html

 

[Typhoo1961]

Sorry about the TMI, guys, but never in my life...nor any woman I know...have we been menstruating so heavily that it could resemble a crime scene. Unless the girl is naked, either some form of feminine product, or her clothes, would absorb the blood. Her bottoms may be bloody or ruined, but not the entire boat.

Especially not girls of the age that DM was with. Now menopausal women I could believe that but not women in their early twenties or 18, 19.

 

[huntergerrard]

Do we know when the letters were written? Without dates stamped on the letters, it was almost a year from the time DM was arrested to the time LE searched CN's bedroom (May 2013 to April 2014). I see the initial story of LB and TB as early letters, and as DM received discovery of the evidence, like pings and texts, he needed to reboot his stories.

We got a glimpse of one of his early stories of TB through DM's only interview when he and his initial lawyer were at that time hinting he was not involved at all. This seems to be reflected in an early letter to CN about MS and his fellow buddies with street names being responsible. IIRC, he changed that story as time progressed to helping clean up MS's mess. The same type of story adjusting seemed to occur with LB as DM received LE discovery.

We may even find that the WM trial will have a similar progression of DM defense strategy.
Testimony that can't be disproved was a snapshot in time that changed with discovery, especially once her room was searched. MOO

I'm curious, why didn't DM write letters to AM about changing his testimony, why go through CN? IIRC the only people to receive letters were CN, and SS. Seems odd, especially if he's trying to change testimony to save his own life.

 

[mimimic]

Would be like the movie Groundhog day for years with DM !

Sorry for my ignorance, but what would DM gain from a mistrial? Wouldn't be the same evidence, just a different jury? Or is there a chance another judge would not allow certain evidence, so DM may have better luck?

 

[huntergerrard]

I have gotta say. Based on the treasure trove of info. DM has gotta be one of the dumbest criminals in Canadian history.

Reading those letters, DM inside his shell is a very week individual. Fragile. Reaching out to CN. Did he really think she would stay in love with him? Any right-minded individual would stay away from an idiot like Milllard after time passes.

As for the loathing of CN. I don't understand the references to evil. I thought she didn't know he murdered Bosma and girls when they are young often do some really stupid stuff. As far as I know, CN was the only person who lawyered up and shut her mouth.

IMO she also lawyered up because she wiped her prints off the trailer. Knowing more about the letters now, she absolutely knew what was in the trailer, and it wasn't a present for Rabbit. Why else would she wipe prints, go with Rabbit to get DM's savings and hide out in a hotel with bottles of wine?

 

[Errrr]

While she revels in what is happening still? She knew LB was missing, dead, and gone. Yet she never said boo. Damaged reputation is not enough for me, for two people who have lost their lives and their families who have lost them. I don't believe for a minute she wasn't in on it all.



Agreed

I suspected DM couldn't afford to drop the girlfriend who knew too much. She wasn't so special or he wouldn't have affected her up to his best friend (who rejected the offer...blech, no thanks) LOL

 

[Errrr]

IMO, you're correct- DM didn't give a care about any woman, however, "Kinks" proved herself to be different; she was a manipulating player as well-calling Boris in for a little fling just a week or so before DM killed LB . She told DM how warm and fuzzy it made her feel when he talked about hurting LB and making the "herpes" go away for good. She texts DM "Have fun doing big things" around 10 pm the night he murdered LB. IMHO, CN will just pull a KH and change her name- she'll disappear into a new identity. I can't say that she was just a young woman in love with a bad guy. MOO

There was obviously some communication between DM and CN that night to get that text from CN. I wonder if DM headed over there after 7:30 to inform the boss of the spliff delivery plans? Whatever happened between 7:30 and 10:00 seemed CN was in the loop. JMO

 

[huntergerrard]

Would not surprise me if the letters were going through a guard (purposely) and were being read before delivery. How would cops know to get a warrant for only two items in CNs bedroom? The video recorder and the letters. They had to know they were there. There has been no mention of a final letter that was intercepted, so one has to assume that she got them all, so cops didn't try to intercept any deliveries. So either cops knew all along or they were told by somebody, but I don't see CN telling anybody.

IIRC there were no response letters from CN found, so either there wasn't someone intercepting them in jail or DM did destroy them.

 

[paris_paris]

This answers a longstanding question. CN is now confirmed to be one of the two girlfriends who went with DM on the Sailboat he rented, and in which, on it's return, the owner found blood, calling the cops.
Cops believed DM that one of the girls was menstruating, (and must have been twirling her tampon like a baton... smh.)

The "North Channel" is a popular sailing destination north of Manitoulin Island, from where DM rented the boat.

I always thought CN was one of those girls. Although it didn't happen at all like you said. The owner didn't notify police about it until after DM had been arrested for murdering Tim.

 

[huntergerrard]

Oh, I agree. I'm waiting for the day that we can read them all in their entirety (praying and hoping quietly to myself that this day comes). I wonder if they hold any damning evidence for the WM trial, also. Could that have even been on DM's radar at the time of writing/sending these letters? Or was he just assuming he completely got away with that one, on the basis that it was already ruled a suicide?

Maybe someone who is talented could piece together letters from both trials to see if there are redacted parts remaining.

 

[Errrr]

AFAIK, the only interview with Paul Bernardo is the one TPS conducted in Kingston Pen with reference to the Elizabeth Bain case -- in which PB claimed to know nothing and he ranted about bias against him and so on and on blah blah. I don't believe any interviews re his actual proven crimes are publicly posted anywhere. The Rafferty and Williams interviews are an exception, rather than the rule - several were with the same OPP behavioural science unit detective. I wish we did see these sorts of interviews and proceedings more often, but it is uncommon and I don't know (though someone else probably does and can chip in) what was the determining factor in releasing those particular interviews. Both were high profile cases, but often the minutiae of high profile cases does not get released to the public. Trial transcripts can be obtained but I believe there's a significant fee involved.

What about the Russell Williams interrogation? That one is epic.
I also recall that blubbering guy who raped Victoria Stafford?

 

[Just4TB]

Maybe someone who is talented could piece together letters from both trials to see if there are redacted parts remaining.

Unfortunately, there will be redacted parts remaining. No way for us to know right now what the redacted portions contain, they could be just the "explicit" portions, or, there may be additional items relating to WM death. The fact that DM was charged for LB and WM murders on the same day, implies to me that the letters likely contain incriminating information in relation to WM's murder.

In addition to the redacted portions of the letters already entered into evidence, I believe there are additional multiple letters in their entirety that have not yet been released to the jury. There was mention of 60+ letters and cards retrieved in total.

 

[huntergerrard]

MS was also charged for contact with MM while he wasn't supposed to - I can't remember if we heard how that contact took place though..
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/

So, wouldn't that mean it's unlikely the police were turning a blind eye for DM's letters? Were there ever charges against DM for his contact?

 

[Satchie]

What about conspiracy to commit a crime?

I agree, but with the proviso, again, that in order to convict, it must be proved there was a verbally agreed upon 'common design' for how to commit a specific crime or type of crimes.

So possibly there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to prove they had verbally agreed to a plan for how to get rid of dead human bodies. But that's not what MS is charged with.

Certainly, by May 2013, I think there is plenty of evidence to show they had agreed to a plan for how to murder someone to steal his truck, and that's why they were both convicted. But I don't see strong evidence they had agreed on a plan about how to murder LB.

My point was that having vague criminal ambitions, or associating with someone you know or believe committed a crime, isn't, in itself, a crime. Criminal law is about the 'guilty act', the physical action of actually committing the crime. And a good thing, because physical actions have the chance of being proven or disproven beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Driving home I had a revelation about why things make so little sense to me. If you remove the incinerator from both the Tim and Laura equations - just pretend it’s not there ether before or after - you have two situations that seem for all the world like accidents or unplanned events. Robbery gone wrong and party while the girlfriend is away gone wrong. That is, I think, at the root of why this never quite computes for me. It’s the juxtaposition of the dark, ominous order implied by the Eliminator and the chaos of the crimes.

Pure speculation: Remember back to the time when DM and MS were texting and DM said words to the effect that he had an idea to take things to the next level, but didn’t know if Mark was willing or able to make it to that level. They were going to discuss it further.

At this point, my own opinion of course, I believe there is a possibility that together their new business venture was to cremate murder victims. Between the two of them they knew a lot of nefarious gang members. DM and MS could charge hefty fees to dispose of murdered bodies, hence the exterminator on a trailer.

Word of their one-of-a-kind business would quickly spread throughout the criminal world. They could travel far and wide, wherever they were needed to use their incinerator. And along the way, continue to have thrills of their own making as well, in addition to hefty proceeds from their “business”.

Might be what they had in mind all along. Or else I am just being ridiculous. [emoji4]


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[MrsThreadgoode]

So the police knew she was receiving correspondence and just sat on it for almost year and then seized them? Are you serious?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that the police would legally be allowed to do this, and they would hate to cause any reason for evidence to be thrown out or worse. They were so diligent and exemplary (Hamilton and OPP) they never would have wanted to spoil the case. I do not think they were aware of the letters until they found with a warrant to search the Noudga home.


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[Minordetails]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what would DM gain from a mistrial? Wouldn't be the same evidence, just a different jury? Or is there a chance another judge would not allow certain evidence, so DM may have better luck?

What would DM gain from a mistrial?
Probably nothing, other than a chance to be in the spotlight again and it would give him something to do for next 5 years. T

 

[MsSherlock]

I agree, but with the proviso, again, that in order to convict, it must be proved there was a verbally agreed upon 'common design' for how to commit a specific crime or type of crimes.

So possibly there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to prove they had verbally agreed to a plan for how to get rid of dead human bodies. But that's not what MS is charged with.

Certainly, by May 2013, I think there is plenty of evidence to show they had agreed to a plan for how to murder someone to steal his truck, and that's why they were both convicted. But I don't see strong evidence they had agreed on a plan about how to murder LB.

My point was that having vague criminal ambitions, or associating with someone you know or believe committed a crime, isn't, in itself, a crime. Criminal law is about the 'guilty act', the physical action of actually committing the crime. And a good thing, because physical actions have the chance of being proven or disproven beyond a reasonable doubt.

IMO the fact pattern pointing to DM and MS working together to murder LB is pretty clear. Premeditation murder of LB that evening 1) DM knew to pick up LB from station, instruction to MS to not be visible when he got back, conversation with CN indicating that he had a big job to do and wouldn't be getting together with CN until Friday.

Then you have quite the diary of trying to get the incinerator delivered and all set up- a "smell check" memo for DM in the barn because the incinerator had a learning curve.

It finishes 20 days later with a late night run by DM/MS/MM out to the farm- DM/MS realization that hydro is needed so an impromptu trip with incinerator in tow to the hangar (which was probably why they didn't waste any time with TB- when they quickly picked up the incinerator and went straight to the hangar)

Late night photo album entries of remains in a glowing incinerator.

MS- moves continues to use LB's personal possessions
DM- moves on to play dumb with SL

Fast forward a year and DM pens a jail house letter to CN referencing "the night" LB disappeared when LE hadn't even acknowledged LB was dead. His alibi includes LB and MS- no MM referenced (IMO, if MM was there, DM would have written MM into the alibi)

MS made arrangements for the gun. MS couldn't swing the "I was just helping my buddy out and I was scared for my life because I didn't know my psycho bro was going to kill someone and burn them" defence in the TB case.

IMHO, they don't need to know who actually killed LB. They both participated in the planning of and actual murder of LB and IMHO, just like in the TB case, the Jury will be returning a M1 for both. MOO

 

[winter2017]

CN got a way with a lot and so did Rabbit. CN is so guilty and I don't know how she got off on such less charge. Rabbit could be responsible for paying for the high priced lawyer CN had. Maybe CN knew things about Rabbit and threatened to go to the police.

IMO she also lawyered up because she wiped her prints off the trailer. Knowing more about the letters now, she absolutely knew what was in the trailer, and it wasn't a present for Rabbit. Why else would she wipe prints, go with Rabbit to get DM's savings and hide out in a hotel with bottles of wine?

 

[winter2017]

DM may have told MS he would only help with disposal of the body, but I think DM planned to frame MS if the police came after him and he planned that from the beginning. He knew how stupid MS was and posting for a picture with eliminator, writing a rap about a murder. DM allowed him to do those things and then would frame MS and MS was too stupid to know that.

I believe not, no. My reasoning is that the criminal justice system is based on proving specific unlawful actions were committed by specific individuals against specific victims.

Someone may have a plan to kill someone in the future, but if it never turns into reality, they won't have committed a crime.