Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

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Did the ever say the make of the gun that killed WM. What happened to it?

The fact that trials are somewhat out of sequence in relation to the actual murder dates has evidence for WM still on hold. The trials of course are scheduled by the date the charge was laid. In the case of LB and WM, they were charged with them on the same day, so I assume the the date of the trial is determined by the date of the murder.

Pretty sure the S&W Long was the one used. It would be strange for LE to say they confiscated the revolver in November of 2012, and still deem WM's death a suicide that same month if it was not the gun. MOO
 
Did the ever say the make of the gun that killed WM. What happened to it?

We have presumed it’s the one with the long barrel in the pictures, recovered from Maple Gate in November 2012.
 
I believe not, no. My reasoning is that the criminal justice system is based on proving specific unlawful actions were committed by specific individuals against specific victims.

Someone may have a plan to kill someone in the future, but if it never turns into reality, they won't have committed a crime.
Toronto 18?
 
BBM. Hmm, I don't know if I agree. Because in the TB case, I don't think it was proven that the murder of TB specifically was premeditated. TB could have been anyone, with that truck. The crown relied heavily on the purchase of the incinerator to show premeditated murder (of someone), but that someone didn't have to be TB specifically. They were convicted then, and if we apply that same logic to the LB case, I think they both could be convicted of M1.

In other words, I don't know if it has to be proven that MS knew specifically that LB was going to be murdered. It's his actions before, and after, that suggest premeditated murder of someone, it just happened to be (sadly and with my deepest condolences) LB.

It became specific against Tim when he’s the man they drove off with. It will be specific against Laura if it can be proven that MS was anywhere near her on the 3rd/4th.
 
Does anyone seem less worried about how the government or agencies collect our information in mass? I've heard or read about stories how objects like smart tvs, google home speakers, telephone conversations etc all get recorded and saved in some mysterious database. If data is collected, wouldn't a murder charge like this be the perfect opportunity to sift through some of those records to piece together any gaps (with some kind of warrant of course).

I think I've read over this trial and the Bosma trial that the only way law enforcement were able to read the text messages exchanged between the accused was because their devices were synched to iTunes. What if they were smarter and didn't synch? Or what if the hard drives were destroyed? All this mass data collection and no ability to retrieve deleted texts not synched to a computer? I realize in Canada we probably don't collect data to the degree as the US and I don't want to switch topics here; but that Las Vegas nutcase must have had things incriminating to him that are saved somewhere to help with his mysterious motive. The last sentence was just a random thought and not meant to change the topic of the Laura Babcock discussion.
 
Sorry for my ignorance, but what would DM gain from a mistrial? Wouldn't be the same evidence, just a different jury? Or is there a chance another judge would not allow certain evidence, so DM may have better luck?

DM doesn't have anywhere to go or anything else to do with his time. MS would just have to pay and pay because he has a lawyer. LOL
 
Just want to thank the people who are contributing the firearms expertise. Very interesting!
 
We aren't in the courtroom though, I think the jury gets an advantage of hearing and observing body language, reactions etc which us mere twitter readers don't. They have more to draw on to decide which witnesses were more credible in which part of their testimony. I't's part of their job, right?

So conceivably they may find one witness believable in both aspects of his testimony (kill & burn), and find the other witness credible only in his 'burn' testimony.... and believe he simply didn't hear or recall the other part about killing. Is my thinking faulty here?

I agree. I also think it's fair to say that the jury are in fact allowed to make inferences, and use their intuition, backed up by circumstantial and hard evidence. They are human after all, and that's why they deliberate. I don't doubt that many of the discussions we have here, will come up in the jury room.
 
Why would they purchase 3 guns? One for DM, one for MS and then the third one ? Any thoughts on this?

If they were for keeps, why " bring her back she'll be a dirty girl"?
 
I just can’t shake the sense that we don’t yet have the true story on that incinerator. It feels like it’s there on some parallel purpose and the crimes are just juxtaposed with it rather than flowing both from and to it. That matters a great deal in understanding things. Obviously its presence impacts everything, including what the boys are willing to try criminally and how they react to circumstances. But to this day I think what the Crown actually proved in the TB case was second degree murder. To me, there was so much evidence that it was meant to be a robbery and not a murder. Multiple people knew about the intended robbery in advance, they created three witnesses to describe their appearance and actions, knew enough to use a burner phone but carted their own around with them too, evidence that MS did not at all expect to be gone all night, the backing off on Igor - who exactly is too intimidating to shoot to death by surprise? - and finally the unholy mess they made of the truck, not to mention blasting a gun in such a confined space, was obviously not the plan, or it could have been the plan with Igor.

Similarly with Laura, there is little evidence beyond an overlap in time that definitively suggests its purchase or even its pending presence was part of a specific murder plot. There is too much going in on parallel over months with guns and missions and next level stuff and ultimately DMs purported need for 100,000 a month. I mean what for? How was he going to do that? How did the 15,000 incinerator investment fit into that?

People have dismissed the idea that people died and the incinerator just happened to be there with a fair degree of virtual eye rolling, but that really may be exactly what happened.

I'd have to agree, and this disconnect is furthered by two different crown theories, in two different trials. In each trial, the crown is trying to use the purchase of the incinerator prove premeditated murder of TB, and then premeditated murder of LB. It's a decent strategy, and likely doesn't matter because this jury "does not know" about the TB trial or the crowns theory during it, but for the public, and the families of both victims, we see this disconnect. We want the real truth as to why this incinerator was acquired. I suppose the crown has no obligation to give us this information, or likely doesn't know, but as human beings we can't help but want to know, and in the process rule out theories that don't make sense to us.

For what it's worth, LB's family is also not buying the crowns theory that Laura was murdered because of a love-triangle. They think she knew something incriminating that put the accused in a vulnerable position. I think they deserve better.
 
... to this day I think what the Crown actually proved in the TB case was second degree murder. To me, there was so much evidence that it was meant to be a robbery and not a murder. ....
RSBM
I agree - however, (if I understand the law correctly) a 2nd degree murder becomes 1st degree, if it occurs during a robbery.
 
I just can’t shake the sense that we don’t yet have the true story on that incinerator. It feels like it’s there on some parallel purpose and the crimes are just juxtaposed with it rather than flowing both from and to it. That matters a great deal in understanding things. Obviously its presence impacts everything, including what the boys are willing to try criminally and how they react to circumstances. But to this day I think what the Crown actually proved in the TB case was second degree murder. To me, there was so much evidence that it was meant to be a robbery and not a murder. Multiple people knew about the intended robbery in advance, they created three witnesses to describe their appearance and actions, knew enough to use a burner phone but carted their own around with them too, evidence that MS did not at all expect to be gone all night, the backing off on Igor - who exactly is too intimidating to shoot to death by surprise? - and finally the unholy mess they made of the truck, not to mention blasting a gun in such a confined space, was obviously not the plan, or it could have been the plan with Igor.

Similarly with Laura, there is little evidence beyond an overlap in time that definitively suggests its purchase or even its pending presence was part of a specific murder plot. There is too much going in on parallel over months with guns and missions and next level stuff and ultimately DMs purported need for 100,000 a month. I mean what for? How was he going to do that? How did the 15,000 incinerator investment fit into that?

People have dismissed the idea that people died and the incinerator just happened to be there with a fair degree of virtual eye rolling, but that really may be exactly what happened.

They killed LB the day it crossed the border and was about to arrive at the hangar. There was zero contact between the two we are aware of that would led to LB being killed on that date. The threatening texts occurred months before. The only variable that changed was DM got a gun and the incinerator is about to arrive.

And the virtual eye rolling is because the scenario that the incinerator is going to feed some kind of roaming body incinerating business is more ludicrous than a roaming animal incinerating business. Let's not forget the purchase was only made because the homemade one was a failure.

First of all, who is killing all of these people that they need to burn bodies? They need to have crazy money and kill at some kind of record pace to earn DM a significant amount of money. Second, driving an incinerator around is about the easiest way to draw attention to yourself, no one with a brain is going to kill someone than have someone drive up with 7 foot tall incinerator to burn bodies.

Occam's razor. Yes it is possible that the purchase of an incinerator and the killings are exclusive events. But the most plausible and simplest explanation is that they are linked.
 
RSBM
I agree - however, (if I understand the law correctly) a 2nd degree murder becomes 1st degree, if it occurs during a robbery.

In the US, but not here. :) Here the scope is more limited. Kidnaping and sexual assault qualify for example, but not robbery.
 
Just want to thank the people who are contributing the firearms expertise. Very interesting!

A quick point of clarification - I am not verified as a firearms expert within the WebSleuths terms, so anything I write here is only "my unqualified opinion".
 
In the US, but not here. :) Here the scope is more limited. Kidnaping and sexual assault qualify for example, but not robbery.

Thanks - is that true also for if murder occurs during forcible confinement?
 
The fact that trials are somewhat out of sequence in relation to the actual murder dates has evidence for WM still on hold. The trials of course are scheduled by the date the charge was laid. In the case of LB and WM, they were charged with them on the same day, so I assume the the date of the trial is determined by the date of the murder.

Pretty sure the S&W Long was the one used. It would be strange for LE to say they confiscated the revolver in November of 2012, and still deem WM's death a suicide that same month if it was not the gun. MOO

WM had a pal. Maybe he had a legal handgun, do we know?

I see this has been answered. Thanks Matou.
 
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