Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[JuneBug67]

They killed LB the day it crossed the border and was about to arrive at the hangar. There was zero contact between the two we are aware of that would led to LB being killed on that date. The threatening texts occurred months before. The only variable that changed was DM got a gun and the incinerator is about to arrive.

And the virtual eye rolling is because the scenario that the incinerator is going to feed some kind of roaming body incinerating business is more ludicrous than a roaming animal incinerating business. Let's not forget the purchase was only made because the homemade one was a failure.

First of all, who is killing all of these people that they need to burn bodies? They need to have crazy money and kill at some kind of record pace to earn DM a significant amount of money. Second, driving an incinerator around is about the easiest way to draw attention to yourself, no one with a brain is going to kill someone than have someone drive up with 7 foot tall incinerator to burn bodies.

Occam's razor. Yes it is possible that the purchase of an incinerator and the killings are exclusive events. But the most plausible and simplest explanation is that they are linked.

DM already had a gun for months. He got the Walther at the very least in February. Again, you’re drawing arbitrary lines through events that there is reason to believe are not even connected and calling that obvious. It’s not obvious. We don’t even know when DM and LB got back in communication or who initiated it. From the evidence we have in this trial, she called him first on July 1. Plans heats up on an incinerator after DM breaks up with CN and before he gets back with her. Why? Certainly not obvious!

The idea of incineration for hire is just one thought that could make a 15,000 incinerator make some sense - in Dellen’s head. It doesn’t actually have to be realistic. He’s desperate for a gun in January “cause he’s under pressure and stuff’s gotta start happening”. What pressure? What stuff? Not obvious!

 

[Grey-St]

Thanks - is that true also for if murder occurs during forcible confinement?

Yes, you are correct.

• Hijacking, sexual assault or kidnapping
  
  (5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:
  • (a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);
  • (b) section 271 (sexual assault);
  • (c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);
  • (d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);
  • (e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or
  • (f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-231.html

 

[mimimic]

Why not believe this is what DM meant to do with it regarding mobility.!(?) That is what he planned to do with it regarding animals. wink. He is the one with harebrained ideas, and this seems to be one of his go to's for a reasonable alibi.

Harebrained - ha

They killed LB the day it crossed the border and was about to arrive at the hangar. There was zero contact between the two we are aware of that would led to LB being killed on that date. The threatening texts occurred months before. The only variable that changed was DM got a gun and the incinerator is about to arrive.

And the virtual eye rolling is because the scenario that the incinerator is going to feed some kind of roaming body incinerating business is more ludicrous than a roaming animal incinerating business. Let's not forget the purchase was only made because the homemade one was a failure.

First of all, who is killing all of these people that they need to burn bodies? They need to have crazy money and kill at some kind of record pace to earn DM a significant amount of money. Second, driving an incinerator around is about the easiest way to draw attention to yourself, no one with a brain is going to kill someone than have someone drive up with 7 foot tall incinerator to burn bodies.

Occam's razor. Yes it is possible that the purchase of an incinerator and the killings are exclusive events. But the most plausible and simplest explanation is that they are linked.

 

[JuneBug67]

Thanks - is that true also for if murder occurs during forcible confinement?

Sorry..that’s what I meant by kidnapping. They were originally charged with that, but the judge took it off the table right before deliberations and said they could not consider forcible confinement as a factor. I don’t think we found out the legal justification for that.

 

[JuneBug67]

A quick point of clarification - I am not verified as a firearms expert within the WebSleuths terms, so anything I write here is only "my unqualified opinion".

Okay! I’ll amend my thanks then to the unqualified people providing unqualified opinions, but I do so without qualification.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

DM already had a gun for months. He got the Walther at the very least in February. Again, you’re drawing arbitrary lines through events that there is reason to believe are not even connected and calling that obvious. It’s not obvious. We don’t even know when DM and LB got back in communication or who initiated it. From the evidence we have in this trial, she called him first on July 1. Plans heats up on an incinerator after DM breaks up with CN and before he gets back with her. Why? Certainly not obvious!

The idea of incineration for hire is just one thought that could make a 15,000 incinerator make some sense - in Dellen’s head. It doesn’t actually have to be realistic. He’s desperate for a gun in January “cause he’s under pressure and stuff’s gotta start happening”. What pressure? What stuff? Not obvious!

He acquired a gun on July 2 and then likely got ammo on July 3. The other gun was not talked about in this trial so irrelevant to the jury.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

DM already had a gun for months. He got the Walther at the very least in February. Again, you’re drawing arbitrary lines through events that there is reason to believe are not even connected and calling that obvious. It’s not obvious. We don’t even know when DM and LB got back in communication or who initiated it. From the evidence we have in this trial, she called him first on July 1. Plans heats up on an incinerator after DM breaks up with CN and before he gets back with her. Why? Certainly not obvious!

The idea of incineration for hire is just one thought that could make a 15,000 incinerator make some sense - in Dellen’s head. It doesn’t actually have to be realistic. He’s desperate for a gun in January “cause he’s under pressure and stuff’s gotta start happening”. What pressure? What stuff? Not obvious!

He acquired a gun on July 2 and then likely got ammo on July 3. The other gun was not talked about in this trial so irrelevant to the jury.

And again - yes he could have some kind of wacky plan for the incinerator. That is possible. It is reasonable to think he was going to run around burning animals for vets (we've heard no). We have no evidence to say he was thinking about become a travelling human body burning salesman.

 

[Just4TB]

If they were for keeps, why " bring her back she'll be a dirty girl"?

Once a gun has been used in a murder, typically it is not kept. Choices include
(a) disposing it in some manner with the intent that it never be found, or,
(b) recycling it back onto the street as a "dirty" gun (for economic reasons)

When LE locate a street gun, (or even if a gun is simply sent in for destruction), forensics are performed to determine if it has ever been used in any known crimes. Once a street gun has traded multiple hands, the longer chain of custody makes investigations more difficult. Note that the exchange of street guns spans the continent. Toronto Police determining if a dirty gun was linked to a crime somewhere in the US is unlikely. Had DM re-sold it back to MWJ as dirty, the next sale for that gun could be in New York City for example.

When DM asked MWJ if it was "clean or dirty", of course MWJ said it was clean, to increase his profit. DM seems to have trusted MWJ... not a wise decision. It is highly probable MWJ was lying, as he did on the stand this week, and that the gun was already dirty from a prior crime, eg the gun could have been used in Chicago, Atlanta, Los Angeles etc. They are all a sordid den of thieves and liars.

DM's wisest choice would have been to make it disappear, but once again, DM has shown that his false sense of superiority and intelligence are nothing more than delusions of grandeur, pure narcissism, and thankfully, this arrogance was his undoing before 3 victims became 30.

 

[Inspector_North]

Wasn't WM killed with a rifle ????

I wonder if WM was capable of shooting himself in the eye with a riffle if he had a mobility disability. If he did, LE must have been satisfied that he was capable of putting a rifle to the eye, and pushing the trigger. Or found something he used to assist in the task.

Abro reported the weapon that took WM's life, as an illegal handgun purchased from MJW. I'm sure we will hear the details at the next trial.


MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

He acquired a gun on July 2 and then likely got ammo on July 3. The other gun was not talked about in this trial so irrelevant to the jury.

The late January texts about Iisho and Dell pushing Mark for contact info and being under pressure etc. all came in in this trial. They know at the very least that he was looking, and for reasons that are extremely unlikely to have had anything to do with Babcock.

The point is though that we here know Dell already had a gun for months. So we should have some skepticism that the .32 has huge significance to Laura’s death by means unknown.

 

[Errrr]

I'd have to agree, and this disconnect is furthered by two different crown theories, in two different trials. In each trial, the crown is trying to use the purchase of the incinerator prove premeditated murder of TB, and then premeditated murder of LB. It's a decent strategy, and likely doesn't matter because this jury "does not know" about the TB trial or the crowns theory during it, but for the public, and the families of both victims, we see this disconnect. We want the real truth as to why this incinerator was acquired. I suppose the crown has no obligation to give us this information, or likely doesn't know, but as human beings we can't help but want to know, and in the process rule out theories that don't make sense to us.

For what it's worth, LB's family is also not buying the crowns theory that Laura was murdered because of a love-triangle. They think she knew something incriminating that put the accused in a vulnerable position. I think they deserve better.

I still think that having $3000 on her person and nobody expecting her home was all the motive DM needed. That would have more than doubled his bank account at the time. And MS was begging for some flesh to test the incinerator.

 

[Oreck]

Good point...for rent?!

MWJ said he could clean it. Meaning change the barrel and regrind or change the firing pin or hammer.

 

[jash]

Wasn't WM killed with a rifle ????

Media reports from 2015 referred to WM's "shotgun death", but that could have been an error.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk

 

[JuneBug67]

He acquired a gun on July 2 and then likely got ammo on July 3. The other gun was not talked about in this trial so irrelevant to the jury.

And again - yes he could have some kind of wacky plan for the incinerator. That is possible. It is reasonable to think he was going to run around burning animals for vets (we've heard no). We have no evidence to say he was thinking about become a travelling human body burning salesman.

The mobility of the incinerator gave him flexibility between the farm and the hangar, the ability to move or hide it if necessary and the potential for general scalability, whatever the intentions. Reductio ad absurdum is probably not a helpful approach in understanding why the man bought an incinerator and welded it to a trailer.

 

[Errrr]

He acquired a gun on July 2 and then likely got ammo on July 3. The other gun was not talked about in this trial so irrelevant to the jury.

And again - yes he could have some kind of wacky plan for the incinerator. That is possible. It is reasonable to think he was going to run around burning animals for vets (we've heard no). We have no evidence to say he was thinking about become a travelling human body burning salesman.

It is mystifying why he would make that monstrosity mobile when he could have called the power company and hooked things up on the farm, for a fraction of the price! Did he go to all that expense just to get it there in the first place? Can someone really be that stupid? If he is, it's hard to apply logic to any of his moves. Stupidity explains everything, and nothing makes sense.

 

[JuneBug67]

I still think that having $3000 on her person and nobody expecting her home was all the motive DM needed. That would have more than doubled his bank account at the time. And MS was begging for some flesh to test the incinerator.

I think the robbery idea is well worth considering, though I think she left a lot of that money at home. Presumably that would have been a relatively spontaneous motive, perhaps even as late as when she showed up at the house with money and electronics. We don’t know what DM could have gleaned in his 23 minute call with her on the 1st though. She seemed to be very open with information and chatty about her life.

 

[redliners]

I wonder if WM was capable of shooting himself in the eye with a riffle if he had a mobility disability. If he did, LE must have been satisfied that he was capable of putting a rifle to the eye, and pushing the trigger. Or found something he used to assist in the task.

Abro reported the weapon that took WM's life, as an illegal handgun purchased from MJW. I'm sure we will hear the details at the next trial.


MOO

Thanks for clarification

 

[Errrr]

I think the robbery idea is well worth considering, though I think she left a lot of that money at home. Presumably that would have been a relatively spontaneous motive, perhaps even as late as when she showed up at the house with money and electronics. We don’t know what DM could have gleaned in his 23 minute call with her on the 1st though. She seemed to be very open with information and chatty about her life.

She didn't have a home.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

The late January texts about Iisho and Dell pushing Mark for contact info and being under pressure etc. all came in in this trial. They know at the very least that he was looking, and for reasons that are extremely unlikely to have had anything to do with Babcock.

The point is though that we here know Dell already had a gun for months. So we should have some skepticism that the .32 has huge significance to Laura’s death by means unknown.

There comes a point where the goal posts are constantly being moved that you're beyond reasonable doubt.

It is a 100% shut and dry case that everything was premeditated? No - but that is the not the standard you need to find someone guilty of a crime.

 

[Bluepopsicle]

DM already had a gun for months. He got the Walther at the very least in February. Again, you’re drawing arbitrary lines through events that there is reason to believe are not even connected and calling that obvious. It’s not obvious. We don’t even know when DM and LB got back in communication or who initiated it. From the evidence we have in this trial, she called him first on July 1. Plans heats up on an incinerator after DM breaks up with CN and before he gets back with her. Why? Certainly not obvious!

The idea of incineration for hire is just one thought that could make a 15,000 incinerator make some sense - in Dellen’s head. It doesn’t actually have to be realistic. He’s desperate for a gun in January “cause he’s under pressure and stuff’s gotta start happening”. What pressure? What stuff? Not obvious!

Do we know that this breakup was determined to be any given amount of time? I hadn’t seen any talk about them reconciling, and I guess somehow I just felt it could have been nothing more than an argument. Did I miss something, or could they have simply made up the next day?

I was re-reading billandrew’s amazing timeline again today, and what seems apparent to me is dm’s increasing urgency to get the incinerator going. He seems to be getting more agitated with Laura in April as evidenced by his texts with CN, and tells SS in May he wants him to make an incinerator. I feel fairly confident that if the incinerator was available in May, Laura just may have been a victim that much sooner.

One if the (many) things that helps to convince me that this was planned is all of his talk about “removing her from our lives”, which of course doesn’t necessarily mean murder, but when he replies to CN about her warm fuzzy feelings, he says something about “sinister intentions”, and that, to me, is very telling.

As many have stated, it’s the totality of all the little facts we have together, that make me confident that this was most certainly planned, and nothing short of M1.

IMO