I don't think DM wanted to use the incinerator at the farm, the neighbours might see, become suspicious, or just call bylaw or the fire department (that's what my neighbours would do). I think he felt safer using it at the hangar where no one could see, but he wanted to hide it out of sight in the barn rather than leave it in the hangar.
Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5
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I don't think DM wanted to use the incinerator at the farm, the neighbours might see, become suspicious, or just call bylaw or the fire department (that's what my neighbours would do). I think he felt safer using it at the hangar where no one could see, but he wanted to hide it out of sight in the barn rather than leave it in the hangar.
arm chair sleuth
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I don't believe they broke up, they pretended to. On youtube, it shows all the conversations that the jury saw. Most of it irrelevant, conversations with tenants at his condos - fixing appliances, stuff with his mechanic etc... Then a conversation between DM and CN, where CN says "what's wrong with this picture", the one from medieval times or some other occasion. She finally tells him "Laura is in the picture". Then she says "was it you who said it was cruel of me to want to see Laura hurt" and DM responds, "it wasn't me". AM thought it was cruel and sort of butted in, he asked DM if he could date Laura, despite the fact that they had been broken up for a while but also to let CN know that LB may not have known better to tell a "players" GF that he wasn't faithful, but she didn't have the courtesy to ask Laura if she could date her friend whom she met through LB! AM also went to see Laura and told her in both a text message and in person to be careful around DM and CN, he told her nicely, told her she was "super nice and means well", but she should be careful and had upset DM and CN. After that, LB contacted DM and apologized and I'm sure DM told CN she apologized and that all she wanted was a regular pot dealer. AM then quit smoking pot and went to Winnipeg to do a plumbing apprenticeship (he couldn't get one in a large city such as GTA?).
My interpretation of this is that there were two well raised boys at this trial, AM and SL. CN figured out that AM was going to talk DM out of doing anything harmful to LB. CN also told DM that AM liked LB and that LB is a liar who plays girlish games pretending not to like a guy that she's wanted all along, trying to make him jealous with other boyfriends, throwing herself at him, playing the part of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman with her blonde wig, excessive makeup, escort job etc... She didn't realize, he wasn't Richard Gere, he was American Psycho, to some extent. CN was probably right, I played LB type games when I was her age. The break up was staged, to see if all AM wanted was to sleep with DM's ex's or whether he really cared for LB, which would mean that he would either tell or wouldn't allow LB's murder to happen. It was also staged to see if LB was really interested and would try and contact DM again if it was known he was single. AM of course, saw it coming, knew as a friend he would be asked to help out and decided it was best to avoid the whole thing and leave town until it all blows over.
LB was also beat up outside Sherway Gardens, the original suspect was a man she had named David something whom she claims assaulted her and raped her friend, she also charged him with theft under 5K. She told Meghan Orr that she hit her own head against a wall and threw herself down the stairs after which she was taken to a psychiatric hospital. The charges have now been dropped and this David guy now says that LB and her friend were doing coke and on some live sex site where they were recording themselves for others to see, so he thought it was okay to have sex with one of them. He explained his broken finger by saying he broke it after he hit a wall because he didn't know what else to do after LB beat him up! He claims she got the bumps on her head, the bruises etc... because she got caught stealing lipstick and then banged her head against the wall several times. I don't believe a word of what he says, I think he was hired by DM to "hurt" LB. This David guy is now nowhere to be found.
Everyone on this site says DM is a narcissist, I think he was a "lost boy" who was trying to assimilate to the crowd he had attracted, which were unemployed youths into doing drugs, getting into trouble, trying to find a place to "fit in" etc...I think CN is a narcissist, I know this because I am a self aware narcissist. The last thing a person should do is make a person with NPD feel stupid, they can be highly manipulative. Do you how stupid a narcissist feels when someone they love, whom they think they have a future with, fools around on them? They will get the message and in turn, make sure you get the message. CN told DM to "go screw himself". How? Manipulating him into murdering LB, getting "turned on" by his "covert missions and thefts", telling him she feels "loved" when he talks about hurting Laura and getting rid of her.
I hope DM finally got the message, he's already screwed himself and she walks away smiling.
My interpretation of this is that there were two well raised boys at this trial, AM and SL. CN figured out that AM was going to talk DM out of doing anything harmful to LB. CN also told DM that AM liked LB and that LB is a liar who plays girlish games pretending not to like a guy that she's wanted all along, trying to make him jealous with other boyfriends, throwing herself at him, playing the part of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman with her blonde wig, excessive makeup, escort job etc... She didn't realize, he wasn't Richard Gere, he was American Psycho, to some extent. CN was probably right, I played LB type games when I was her age. The break up was staged, to see if all AM wanted was to sleep with DM's ex's or whether he really cared for LB, which would mean that he would either tell or wouldn't allow LB's murder to happen. It was also staged to see if LB was really interested and would try and contact DM again if it was known he was single. AM of course, saw it coming, knew as a friend he would be asked to help out and decided it was best to avoid the whole thing and leave town until it all blows over.
LB was also beat up outside Sherway Gardens, the original suspect was a man she had named David something whom she claims assaulted her and raped her friend, she also charged him with theft under 5K. She told Meghan Orr that she hit her own head against a wall and threw herself down the stairs after which she was taken to a psychiatric hospital. The charges have now been dropped and this David guy now says that LB and her friend were doing coke and on some live sex site where they were recording themselves for others to see, so he thought it was okay to have sex with one of them. He explained his broken finger by saying he broke it after he hit a wall because he didn't know what else to do after LB beat him up! He claims she got the bumps on her head, the bruises etc... because she got caught stealing lipstick and then banged her head against the wall several times. I don't believe a word of what he says, I think he was hired by DM to "hurt" LB. This David guy is now nowhere to be found.
Everyone on this site says DM is a narcissist, I think he was a "lost boy" who was trying to assimilate to the crowd he had attracted, which were unemployed youths into doing drugs, getting into trouble, trying to find a place to "fit in" etc...I think CN is a narcissist, I know this because I am a self aware narcissist. The last thing a person should do is make a person with NPD feel stupid, they can be highly manipulative. Do you how stupid a narcissist feels when someone they love, whom they think they have a future with, fools around on them? They will get the message and in turn, make sure you get the message. CN told DM to "go screw himself". How? Manipulating him into murdering LB, getting "turned on" by his "covert missions and thefts", telling him she feels "loved" when he talks about hurting Laura and getting rid of her.
I hope DM finally got the message, he's already screwed himself and she walks away smiling.
Bluepopsicle
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I agree with every one of your points, completely. They’re all rational and reasonable statements in my opinion. Yet somehow I still feel like he’s guilty of M1. We all know he’s guilty, I think we just differ on what level. I can’t explain why I think he’s guilty, other than maybe all the pieces put together. I’m not entirely sure that I am looking at this strictly from an evidentiary point of view, or I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not 100% sure that my emotion, or gut, isn’t playing at least some small part in my decision tbh. This whole thing is still so horrifically shocking to me that I’m not positive I can see this from a completely objective POV.
That being said, if I was an innocent person accused of a crime, I would want to have you serve on my jury, rather than me.
Jilleybeen
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So up until this point (from what I can tell) "on a mission" meant an illegal quest, usually stealing something, and MS was usually in on the quest, or at least privy to it.
For DM to say "Don't be out front" and for MS to not question that...that alone makes me believe he knew the plan was more sinister than simply theft. I believe he knew.
For DM to say "Don't be out front" and for MS to not question that...that alone makes me believe he knew the plan was more sinister than simply theft. I believe he knew.
cansleuther
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<rbbm>
“Nowhere to be found” as in not testifying at Laura’s trial, or “nowhere to be found” as in he’s missing?! There’s no way that DA was the other “dead deer” in the Eliminator, since he spoke to the Toronto Star over a year after DM and MS were imprisoned.
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/06/07/dellen_millard_murder_of_laura_babcock_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html
NoodlesMcgee
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He wanted to use it at the farm according to all we've heard but the cord or the generator wasn't working so they went to the hangar where there was power.
DeaconBrodie
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You can also clean the gun by replacing the barrel and/or the firing pin depending on whether there may be shell casings or bullets out there that you are concerned about.
I believe that MJM bragged about knowing how to clean a dirty girl or something to that effect.
NoodlesMcgee
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Well this sure is something.
DM was so manipulated by CN that he then murdered his dad and a stranger over the course of a year.
We've got two people convicted of one murder, charged with at least one more (two in DMs case) but some want to either minimize their guilt or pass it along to others based on no evidence at all.
ABro
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The statements may be rational and reasonable when considering each one separately isolated from all the other evidence. But are they rational and reasonable when you consider all the evidence together as the jury will be instructed to do? The latter is the criteria not the former. It's how a circumstantial case is built.
That said, you should not be basing a decision as serious as this on your feeling or your gut. You should be looking at the evidence and asking, is there another explanation for the evidence that makes sense?
The only one people here keep coming up with is that Smich would be happy to burn a body and boast about it but would draw the line at murder, even a murder in which it can be inferred he helped to procure the weapon. It will be interesting to see what Dungey does in his closing statement and how he explains everything.
And finally, the criteria for guilt is not 100% sure, it's beyond a reasonable doubt.
ABro
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ABro! If and when you have the time, can you check out post #131 of this thread? Page 9. Thank you!
I saw that but I don't feel comfortable saying much more than I said at this point. Let's talk about it later.
musicaljoke
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IMO, the only reason for putting it on a trailer was so that it could be driven back and forth between the hanger and the farm. That's all he ever used it for, so you are probably right to suggest that there never was another purpose for the trailer.
musicaljoke
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I don't believe that the two boys would risk their lives to testify against a convicted murderer just to brag.
It's ironic that we've been critical of DM's and MS' network of ****s who didn't speak the truth in court, and who didn't speak out against the murderers, but when these two fellows did speak up, they were not believed.
ABro
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Calling it "the peach schnapps incident" is an attempt to minimize key testimony. The witnesses corroborated each other. One went to police when he no longer believed Smich's tale was just "bragging," as you put it.
This is the problem with the "not enough evidence" argument. It relies on dismissing testimony the jury may well find credible as the silly, inconsequential "peach schnapps Incident."
We'll find out what the jury thought of that testimony when they come back with their verdict
Grey-St
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Don't discount your intuition entirely. It's the one thing that guides us through life deciphering between what's true and false, or what's safe and dangerous, especially when information garnered is rather unclear, confusing or misleading.
With that being said, and to tie into the above discussion, I find David Cronin and Desi Liberatore to be creditable witnesses. Drug use or a "sordid past" as Dungey called it, does not make someone's testimony unreliable. The thing I take into consideration is motive. What motive is behind this person's testimony? To get up on the stand and testify that MS told you that he kill and/or burned a girl, in front of MS himself, is no small feat. I don't think either of them would do so if they were uncertain it happened.
He did signal him. ASAK. But he missed it so DM had to elaborate.
He did signal him. AYAK. But he missed it so DM had to elaborate.
hopingforjustice
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http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...rial-a-timeline-of-the-crown-s-case-1.4418858
Click through our interactive timeline of the Crown's case:
Click through our interactive timeline of the Crown's case:
Something that has been nagging at me - why is that we think we know the three phones were at Maple Gate from 7ish on? How does that square with DM being on a mission for an hour? The Crown doesn't have to present all the evidence in the world, it just has to present its case. Is it possible that we've heard only about the time at which the phones converged at Maple Gate to prove they were all in the same place at that critical time? And then data again the next day, in the next critical period? Could we be missing phone data between 7 pm and when the presented phone evidence picks up again at 11 am on the 4th? We know that DM was trying to put other texts in evidence, but was told he couldn't do it during the Crown's case though they were certainly admissible - he would have to enter them later as an admission. Could the same be true for phone data?
Is that really the most reasonable conclusion? I think Smich types one too many k's in the standard k or kk used in text messages for "okay", and DM makes a joke - "Are You a Klansman?" A bit too abstruse for the fockin pus guy, if flies right over his head.
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