Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Georgeo]

If MS is as innocent as some believe he is, wouldn't he have told all he did know, screamed his innocence at every opportunity, instead of staying silent and refusing to help police once arrested? Writing raps about his crimes is certainly not a smart idea either. Forget about the creativity aspect of his raps. Has he written raps about his mother having cancer, or his time in prison? Doubt it. Yet he had no problem rapping about crime and violence and all that he did. Bragging about his criminal acts almost. Not the brightest move.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Something that has been nagging at me - why is that we think we know the three phones were at Maple Gate from 7ish on? How does that square with DM being on a mission for an hour? The Crown doesn't have to present all the evidence in the world, it just has to present its case. Is it possible that we've heard only about the time at which the phones converged at Maple Gate to prove they were all in the same place at that critical time? And then data again the next day, in the next critical period? Could we be missing phone data between 7 pm and when the presented phone evidence picks up again at 11 am on the 4th? We know that DM was trying to put other texts in evidence, but was told he couldn't do it during the Crown's case though they were certainly admissible - he would have to enter them later as an admission. Could the same be true for phone data?

We didn't get great reporting of the pings. Possible they showed it and we didn't see it. Abro might know as I believe she was in court for that section.

If they did blank it out I'm sure the defense will present it if it helps them.

 

[JuneBug67]

We didn't get great reporting of the pings. Possible they showed it and we didn't see it. Abro might know as I believe she was in court for that section.

If they did blank it out I'm sure the defense will present it if it helps them.

I think it's important because it could change our understanding of things we're currently drawing inferences from. If DM was off on a mission as the texts suggest, unless the mission is really close to home he should be pinging somewhere else. And if he's off somewhere else we should have further information on who is currently with who. If LB is left home with MS, there are new things to consider.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I think it's important because it could change our understanding of things we're currently drawing inferences from. If DM was off on a mission as the texts suggest, unless the mission is really close to home he should be pinging somewhere else. And if he's off somewhere else we should have further information on who is currently with who. If LB is left home with MS, there are new things to consider.

My working theory is that this mission is when DM went to get ammo from MWJ or someone from MWJ's crew. But I would like to see the pings to know if took LB with him or if even left the house at this time.

 

[Satchie]

I don't believe that the two boys would risk their lives to testify against a convicted murderer just to brag.

It's ironic that we've been critical of DM's and MS' network of ****s who didn't speak the truth in court, and who didn't speak out against the murderers, but when these two fellows did speak up, they were not believed.

No, not at all. I didn't mean the witnesses were bragging, I mean MS was bragging to them in the garage.

So his 'confession' was an attempt to impress them with what a bad guy he was, and he likely succeeded. What makes it unreliable isn't the honesty or integrity of the witnesses, but the circumstances. Firstly, was MS telling the truth or exaggerating. Secondly, did the witnesses fully understand what he was telling them, in precise detail, as to his role in the crime.

As an example, in another case a man who was planning to kill a woman, bragged to a drinking partner that he'd killed a woman in the past. Police didn't believe this was a true confession, they interpreted it as boasting to try to get his courage up for what he was planning to do.

 

[Satchie]

If MS is as innocent as some believe he is, wouldn't he have told all he did know, screamed his innocence at every opportunity, instead of staying silent and refusing to help police once arrested? Writing raps about his crimes is certainly not a smart idea either. Forget about the creativity aspect of his raps. Has he written raps about his mother having cancer, or his time in prison? Doubt it. Yet he had no problem rapping about crime and violence and all that he did. Bragging about his criminal acts almost. Not the brightest move.

I don't say he's innocent, he was certainly guilty of the Bosma murder, and all the evidence about the guns and the incinerator were relevant to that case too. Plus, I don't believe he would ever cooperate with police.

 

[Grey-St]

I don't say he's innocent, he was certainly guilty of the Bosma murder, and all the evidence about the guns and the incinerator were relevant to that case too. Plus, I don't believe he would ever cooperate with police.

It's an interesting point though, isn't it?

He had to have known this was coming. When charges were laid against him in TB's murder, and an investigation re-opened into LB's disappearance, it's safe to assume he had an opportunity to speak with LE. Why not get ahead of it all, if he only played a part after the fact?

 

[bcgirl]

In contemplating whether CN is being called as a witness for the defence, I couldn't help but think of DM's comment regarding the problem he had with CN's weight.......................... ....."It's not over till the fat lady sings".........

 

[LadyL]

wait ... he had less than $1500 cash? was he living on credit? was this info in the first trial?

I still think that having $3000 on her person and nobody expecting her home was all the motive DM needed. That would have more than doubled his bank account at the time. And MS was begging for some flesh to test the incinerator.

 

[Georgeo]

It's an interesting point though, isn't it?

He had to have known this was coming. When charges were laid against him in TB's murder, and an investigation re-opened into LB's disappearance, it's safe to assume he had an opportunity to speak with LE. Why not get ahead of it all, if he only played a part after the fact?

that would have made him look like a humane person, who saw error of his ways once he was off drugs and had chance to think straight.

 

[XFP]

You seem to be forgetting about other direct evidence -- like the two witnesses who said MS confessed.

And also the fact that his behaviour was very bizarre for someone not in on the murder. Do you think the jury's going to find it plausible that he revelled in cremating someone, proudly posing for photos and writing a grotesque rap about a murder he wasn't in on but allegedly confessed to? And, oh yes, there's all the other circumstantial evidence you referenced plus a few more things you didn't.

The "not enough evidence for MS" crowd conveniently forgets about a lot of the evidence against MS. But the Crown won't forget any of it when they make their closing address. It will all be tied up with a bow.

Dungey will try his best to make it all look coincidental.

And then the jury can decide.

Thank you. I've made my decision and I believe there is more than enough evidence for MS to be convicted of M1. I look forward to the Crown's closing.

 

[Georgeo]

Thank you. I've made my decision and I believe there is more than enough evidence for MS to be convicted of M1. I look forward to the Crown's closing.

ditto

 

[Satchie]

The only one people here keep coming up with is that Smich would be happy to burn a body and boast about it but would draw the line at murder, even a murder in which it can be inferred he helped to procure the weapon.

Snipped by me. I don't say that Smich drew the line. I think the evidence shows the person drawing lines was DM. He was managing/manipulating a lot of people in his text messages, not being managed by them or going along with their suggestions.

Smich texts Millard: "Do u have any bones for tonight? Or we just putting it together?"
Millard texts Smich: "I will have something."

I think that shows how it was with them.

 

[ABro]

Snipped by me. I don't say that Smich drew the line. I think the evidence shows the person drawing lines was DM. He was managing/manipulating a lot of people in his text messages, not being managed by them or going along with their suggestions.

Smich texts Millard: "Do u have any bones for tonight? Or we just putting it together?"
Millard texts Smich: "I will have something."

I think that shows how it was with them.

And then there was the time Smich volunteered to get the neighbour's dog to test out the BBQ, "LOL".

Smich had his little posse of high schoolers to manipulate just like Millard had his. And Smich had the MWJ connection. DM had to go though Smich to reach MWJ, according to the texts.

This is isn't an either/or situation. They can both be bad. And they can both be found guilty.

 

[Errrr]

Is that really the most reasonable conclusion? I think Smich types one too many k's in the standard k or kk used in text messages for "okay", and DM makes a joke - "Are You a Klansman?" A bit too abstruse for the fockin pus guy, if flies right over his head.

A couple of things about that. That "joke" is disconnected from the previous comment by time. I would also be surprised if DM is familiar with this lingo of southern states racists and it would be even more surprising for MS to get it. He was in the middle of special ops which doesn't seem time for obscure jokes. Not to mention, that joke would be too clever for DM. He was trying to get a message out in lingo they are very familiar with. IMO
I think this KKK stuff out of the blue is bizarre.

 

[Satchie]

It's an interesting point though, isn't it?

He had to have known this was coming. When charges were laid against him in TB's murder, and an investigation re-opened into LB's disappearance, it's safe to assume he had an opportunity to speak with LE. Why not get ahead of it all, if he only played a part after the fact?

Because cooperating with police is very unwise when you've murdered at least one person. Your lawyer will not let you do it, for one thing.

I have trouble with black and white thinking. I see this situation as some black and white, and many shade of grey. I don't see people as all guilty or all innocent and that debate doesn't even interest me. I'm interested in crime and why people commit it, how to determine what really happened and how to achieve justice in a complicated world.

 

[Grey-St]

Because cooperating with police is very unwise when you've murdered at least one person. Your lawyer will not let you do it, for one thing.

I have trouble with black and white thinking. I see this situation as some black and white, and many shade of grey. I don't see people as all guilty or all innocent and that debate doesn't even interest me. I'm interested in crime and why people commit it, how to determine what really happened and how to achieve justice in a complicated world.

I'm all about the shades of grey in a complex world, and I don't see how my comment suggests otherwise. I think everything in life exists on a spectrum, and I don't believe in absolutes.

I was putting myself in the shoes of a moderately-innocent MS, and if that was the case, then I think not cooperating with LE may have hurt him.

 

[huntergerrard]

Lol😂 That quote really made me laugh! Thank you. I remember thinking to myself when I first saw that “Who talks like that to a roughly 25 year old man.. 😶😳”

It’s actually pretty creepy when you stop to think it through

He's more like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[huntergerrard]

This is really interesting. I didn't realize this happened in Canada, releasing such things to the public.


I feel like there would have to be a pertinent public interest, and justifiable circumstances for releasing any interrogations or video statements. Seems like pretty private stuff.

I'm sure I've watched Paul Bernardo's video statement and that nurse Wettlaufer, I think her name is.

 

[huntergerrard]

Street gun values are unaffected by prohibited status.
However, where the prohibited class impacts this case, is because DM showed the jury his father's PAL.
Unless his father's PAL included Prohib class, (which is unlikely), then DM cannot properly argue or pretend that WM had these handguns in the house as collectibles.

Ugh, you just gave me the image of DM claiming that LB was suicidal at his house and grabbed one of his dad's guns to kill herself.