GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #3

[gracehatter]

The pregnancy is a definitely a point of interest. Did Sheila ever know? Was it what started a disagreement that led to the brutal attack? QUOTE]

It is. Personal reference here. I have a 31 year old daughter who is now just about 3 months along. They live outside Chicago while we live in Michigan so we see each other maybe 2 times a month for weekends but I was not surprised when they announced it on Labor Day because I'd heard the morning puking, noted her not eating some of her favorite foods and aversion to smells and she was only around us for maybe 7 days total during that time. Most first pregnancies are tough during the first trimester...I wonder what if any symptoms HM was showing during the vacay trip since they would have been together a lot despite HM taking her time outs? So many things we might not ever find the truth out about.

 

[Kamille]

SBM

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I want to point out that there is quite likely a trust involved, which would not be public. Given their lifestyle, I believe there's a lot more money involved than just the settlement and house.


ETA. Another thought... I recall reading that she grew up in Grosse Pointe, MI which is a very wealthy area. She also attended an exclusive, and expensive, college. There may be family money and trust funds on her side of the family as well.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

Just going with the information we've received so far. When JM died, there was a substantial mortgage on the house and other than their once a year vacations, occasional parties in the home with JM's music friends/contacts and SWM enjoying the "arts" (but not really participating on any boards or committees that we could find), I'm not sure what lifestyle you're referring to? We haven't really heard much about them other than the travelling. A lot of people spend a good portion of their disposable annual income on travelling once a year. It's their vacation. HM went to ordinary public schools from what I understand. The house was very much in need of repair when it was sold. So much so that it sold for almost a million less than it's current resale value. We've not heard what became of the $150,000 condo that JM supposedly had but I suppose it's either still rented, sold or that was a reporter error. While I'm sure JM made a good living while he was working, he did have 5 other children that he must have had to support over the years plus possible alimony for ex wives. And it appears that he ceased working in the last 6 years of his life after his injury, so they may have been drawing on saved funds or mortgaging the house to make ends meet. Apparently he only had $1800 in savings at the time of his death.

While I do get the "aura" of money from SWM and her interests, it's obvious she liked nice things, I don't see that she actually had any substantial amount of money herself. Her parents are long deceased I believe, so any family money would have already been distributed to her. But perhaps you're right. She may have a nice nest egg of funds that were hers alone coming into the marriage that she's managed to keep in some type of trust. And if that's the case, I hope her brother (and other siblings if she has any) get it all. HM doesn't deserve one cent.

MOO

ETA: Here is a link to a statement from her brother and sister regarding her life and family. She has one brother and one sister and both of her parent's are deceased. http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-read-statement-from-wiese-family-20140821-htmlstory.html

 

[Kamille]

The Ever-Changing Police Accounts

I have more or less trusted the police claims about this crime from the beginning. There seemed to be no reason not to. We saw a video still of Heather and Tommy with the taxi driver, the blood on the taxi back bumper, the bloody suitcase, the two suspects without an ounce of remorse or fear at the police station, and the report of their absurd claim of an armed gang, which to this day has not been repudiated by them or anyone associated with them.

Yet there has always been something a little bit strange about how the police have handled the case. Why was the silver suitcase put in the sunny police courtyard to regale the media? It’s evidence! Why did we see the cops displaying evidence for the cameras as if they were on QVC? It also seemed odd to me that the police would permit video and still cameramen to be in such close proximity of the suspects. Perhaps there are loose standards of police procedure in Indonesia.

The police accounts of what they claim to know keeps changing. I can understand that as an investigation proceeds new information will mean that theories change. But the police have reported certain things as fact and then later reported something completely different as fact. This has happened a lot. Here’s a list I’ve compiled of changing stories from the police. I’ve just re-read a few early accounts of the case, but much of what I’ve listed comes from memory, so if I’ve got anything wrong, I welcome corrections from my fellow WebSleuths. I would also be interested if anyone can recall other examples of where the police have completely changed their story.

First: The murder happened in room 616.
Later: The murder happened in room 317.

First: The murder was committed with two glass weapons, possibly an ashtray and a vase.
Later: The murder was committed with a single weapon, an iron grip from a glass bowl.

First: Tommy and Heather were arguing in the lobby.
Later: Tommy and Sheila were arguing in the lobby.
Still later: Tommy, Heather, and Sheila were arguing in the lobby.

First: Sheila and Heather had been staying at the St. Regis several days before Tommy arrived.
Later: Sheila and Heather had been staying at the St. Regis two days before Tommy arrived.

First: Tommy carried the suitcase containing Sheila’s body up the stairs from the third floor to the seventh floor and then back down to the sixth floor.
Later: The suitcase with the body was on the third floor, never on the sixth floor, and was facilitated to travel downwards by Heather.

First: Tommy called a bellboy to bring a luggage trolley to room 616 and from there the suitcase with Sheila’s body was placed on the trolley.
Later: The suitcase with Sheila’s body was taken from room 317 on a hotel trolley fetched by Heather.

First: Sheila’s body was wrapped in a bed sheet.
Later: The suitcase containing Sheila’s body was wrapped in a bed sheet.

First: The suspects might face trial in the United States.
Later: The suspects will be tried in Bali and there is no possibility of the trial moving to the United States.

First: Placing the body in the suitcase showed premeditation (presumably because they planned all along to dispose of it this way).
Later: Placing the body in the suitcase was a “desperately wild attempt” to get rid of the body (presumably because they had not planned all along to dispose of it this way, going against an argument of premeditation).

First: The time of death was very roughly 12 hours before the body was found, so the murder transpired approximately between 12:30 a.m. and 1:30 a.m. (notwithstanding the fact that there was video of Sheila, alive, in the hotel lobby at 3:45 a.m.).
Later: The time of death was between 6:45 a.m. and 10 a.m.
Still later: The time of death was between 8:40 a.m. and 9:42 a.m.

First: More than one of Sheila’s fingers was broken during the murderous assault.
Later: No fingers were broken, but instead a single fingernail was broken.

First: No one in or around the St. Regis noticed anything wrong with the silver suitcase until the taxi driver observed blood coming from it as it rested in the trunk of his cab.
Later: A staff member of the St. Regis noticed something wrong before the luggage trolley even got outside the hotel: he/she asked why the suitcase was wrapped in a sheet and Heather gives a plausible answer.

First: Tommy confessed that he murdered Sheila.
Later: Tommy did not confess that he murdered Sheila.

First: Heather has undergone psychological examination.
Later: Heather has refused to participate in a psychological exam.

First: The murder was premeditated.
Later: The police do not yet have evidence that the murder was planned.

To the best of my recollection, all these claims have been made by police. Together, it seems like quite a collection of errors and contradictions.

Of course some these discrepancies can be put down to understandable errors made in the early course of the investigation (e.g. how long Heather and Sheila had actually been at the St. Regis). But there are so many mistakes that it troubles me.

I’ve posted before about the possibility of language barriers as a source of some confusion. We could have native English speakers writing stories about accounts given in Indonesian and the reporters may not have sufficiently good Indonesian skills to get it right. We could have Bali authorities who are native Indonesian speakers talking to the press in English and making some language mistakes.

But this cannot possibly explain how it could be reported that Tommy confessed when the police now admit that the statement they made that he confessed is not true. Ditto for Tommy calling a bellboy to the sixth floor to collect Sheila’s body when her body was never on the sixth floor. These are not errors stemming from problems of language proficiency, unless the speaker is utterly atrocious in English, in which case it is outrageously unforgivable to have attempted a report in English in the first place.

If police are playing some kind of cat and mouse game with the suspects by releasing false information (for example, reporting two murder weapons to suggest two participants in the actual brutal attack in the hope that one or both of them would start talking to implicate the other and save him/herself; or claiming that Heather said Tommy did it alone in the hope that Tommy would turn on Heather), then we can trust nothing the police say until they are under oath. If this explanation is true, then law enforcement officials are only concerned with getting the suspects to talk and feel no responsibility to be truthful to the press or public.

I would hate to think the explanation of all, or even some of this is that the police are incompetent. But I can’t rule that out. The initial time of death error can’t be explained either by language problems or a snare to trap the suspects, and the same goes for the dramatic report of Tommy’s furtive up-and-down staircase journey with the silver suitcase.

Have no doubt about it: I believe the police have evidence which will rightfully convict Tommy and Heather. But when it comes to specific details they release, from this point on I will take anything the police say as nothing more than tentative. I simply cannot trust their statements any longer. I will trust the trial.

Excellent comparison of all the discrepancies reported so far Orange Tabby.

I'm going to assume it's a combination of "police tactics" (this is not the US justice system in action here), rumours from all different sources being attributed to police by reporters (perhaps they don't have an issue with being misquoted in the press?), translation difficulties, two different police stations/police chiefs involved in the holding of the suspects. Multiple lawyers for both suspects putting out information and just general rumours and information coming out and not being attributed to specific police officers but just as "sources".

MOO

 

[Kamille]

So, I have been thinking about reasons why HM and TS suddenly decided that ‘Sheila insulting Tommy’ was a good ruse to start using as a reason/defense for her murder.

Indonesians do not like insults. There are cases about insults in Indonesia … though most of them seem to look for the remedy of compensation and restoring a person’s good honour.

But how about provocation being a partial defense to murder? Could this be the route that they are going to take? (Seeing that the gang of men thing is not going to work )




I have been looking for items about provocation being used as a defense in Indonesia. Not having a lot of luck, except this one attack where the ‘provoked’ murderous people got off with light sentences …..



And articles about women needing to watch what they wear so they don’t ‘provoke’ rapes and attacks

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E4D8163EF937A1575AC0A9679D8B63

I think you're right SouthAussie. Now that the US lawyers have had a chance to speak with the Indonesian lawyers and look into some good defence strategies for minimum punishment, they've likely advised HM what would allow for both of them to get the lowest charge and punishment possible. If provocation is a recognized defence, it makes sense why she'd use it. But of course only for TS taking the brunt of the blame.

Wouldn't this be obvious to the Bali LE considering the lies that have already been told? Wouldn't this just bother them more, knowing that she is likely still lying? And now that her "story" is out there, it will probably trickle back to TS and now he has the option of going along so that he will get 15 years and she may get less? Would he go for it?

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Here is a link to the condo that JM owned. SWM sold it for $130,000 in 2007.

http://chicago.blockshopper.com/property/20142020761280/1400_e_55th_unit_202s/

 

[ajaylee]

All the information seems to be coming from HM's side. Even the (false) report that both had confessed was based solely on HM's account, an account that seems to be getting fine-tuned every time it's repeated. She's gone from being a witness who saw the murder and helped force her mother's body into the suitcase to someone who witnessed a 'beating' and did not help put her mother's body in the suitcase.

I thought it was interesting that Elkin's attempts to try the case in the media failed. He let us know how distraught she was at the shocking treatment she was receiving in jail, his colleague let us know how excited and concerned Heather is about her baby's welfare, but no one ever mentioned her being freaked out over witnessing her mother's violent death.

What was the 'conflict' was that caused TS's last Indonesian lawyer to suddenly quit? I'm guessing it's because HM's version of events had been released and his Indonesian lawyer wanted him to go along with that version.

I don't know if they intended to kill SWM in Bali (I'm beginning to think HM planned it), but Tommy's suitcase was wayyy big for a 2-day visit. He had posted to friends that he didn't know when he was coming back and he also posted something somewhere about possibly going to China.

 

[Quester]

Hope we hear soon about confiscated computers [Chicago], cell phone records, etc.

Wonder if HM's multiple hour disappearance was to buy and set-up two local to Bali, pay as you go type, cell phones???

TS & HM must have been communicating somehow in those early hours?

* * *

OR ... Here's a reach ...

Given: At 8:40am, TS was said to have been seen via CCTV leaving his room [617] and with a path toward the M's room [317] .

My question: Why 8:40?

1. 840
To inhale and exhale the fumes of burning cannabis plant material at a rate approximately double that of the average consumer (see: 420)

Neophyte: Excuse me, my good stoner, but how, specifically, might one "840"?

840 Veteran: JUST SMOEK WEEED TWICE AS HARD!!!!111
...

3. 840
A blunt [Cigar hollowed out and filled with marijuana, can be smoked in public (somewhat)inconspicuously.] so large that it is considered to have double the capacity of 420.

He rolled up an 840 and smoked the whole damn thing in an hour and a half!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=840
​

Rut roh! Anyone find that blunt TS had hidden? :groucho:

 

[Kamille]

Hope we hear soon about confiscated computers [Chicago], cell phone records, etc.

Wonder if HM's multiple hour disappearance was to buy and set-up two local to Bali, pay as you go type, cell phones???

TS & HM must have been communicating somehow in those early hours?

* * *

OR ... Here's a reach ...

Given: At 8:40am, TS was said to have been seen via CCTV leaving his room [617] and with a path toward the M's room [317] .

My question: Why 8:40?

1. 840
To inhale and exhale the fumes of burning cannabis plant material at a rate approximately double that of the average consumer (see: 420)

Neophyte: Excuse me, my good stoner, but how, specifically, might one "840"?

840 Veteran: JUST SMOEK WEEED TWICE AS HARD!!!!111
...

3. 840
A blunt [Cigar hollowed out and filled with marijuana, can be smoked in public (somewhat)inconspicuously.] so large that it is considered to have double the capacity of 420.

He rolled up an 840 and smoked the whole damn thing in an hour and a half!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=840
​

Anyone find that blunt TS had hidden? :groucho:

OMG Quester...I seriously just laughed out loud. :floorlaugh: 840... :floorlaugh:

Okay as for the computers, phones etc., we do know that the FBI did a second autopsy on SWM when she was returned to the US so they must be doing their own investigation in the US to pass on info to Bali? On behalf of SWM's family?

 

[ajaylee]

It occurs to me that perhaps Elkin helped HM come up with the 'n*****' defense, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure there are all kinds of prejudices in Bali, but I don't know how familiar Indonesians are with white-black prejudices.

In the US, that would be an attempt to show that the crime was spontaneous, not pre-meditated.

Although...if he brought a weapon from his room, then I don't see how that would work. If she called him an offensive name and he immediately hit her, that's unpremeditated. If he left, got a weapon and came back, then I don't see how it's not pre-meditated.

Ugh, my head is starting to spin!

 

[Kamille]

It occurs to me that perhaps Elkin helped HM come up with the 'n*****' defense, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure there are all kinds of prejudices in Bali, but I don't know how familiar Indonesians are with white-black prejudices.

In the US, that would be an attempt to show that the crime was spontaneous, not pre-meditated.

Although...if he brought a weapon from his room, then I don't see how that would work. If she called him an offensive name and he immediately hit her, that's unpremeditated. If he left, got a weapon and came back, then I don't see how it's not pre-meditated.

Ugh, my head is starting to spin!

Just wait until we hear the retraction that he didn't have anything under his shirt and that the weapon is back to a vase in SWM's room. LOL

But seriously, if they can prove he had the weapon that killed her under his shirt when he was let into that room, I can't see it being anything other than premeditation, racial slur or not.

MOO

 

[ajaylee]

The discrepancy on the weapons is particularly hard to understand. Early accounts said there were two pieces of glass, a vase and an ashtray, in SWM's room. Both were broken, allegedly used as weapons. Now...no mention of them, just TS's home-made weapon.

When I first read about the disguised weapon, I wondered if he was just walking around with a hand under his shirt in his waistband, like some guys do.

It will be interesting to hear when HM says SWM called him the 'N' word. Seems to me that if he was that upset about the use of the word, he would have reacted immediately, using anything at hand (like a heavy vase or an ashtray). Heck, the guy didn't need weapons - he was a healthy young 6' male and she was a 61-year-old woman in average shape. He didn't need to go back to his room and 'manufacture' a weapon.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The discrepancy on the weapons is particularly hard to understand. Early accounts said there were two pieces of glass, a vase and an ashtray, in SWM's room. Both were broken, allegedly used as weapons. Now...no mention of them, just TS's home-made weapon.

When I first read about the disguised weapon, I wondered if he was just walking around with a hand under his shirt in his waistband, like some guys do.

It will be interesting to hear when HM says SWM called him the 'N' word. Seems to me that if he was that upset about the use of the word, he would have reacted immediately, using anything at hand (like a heavy vase or an ashtray). Heck, the guy didn't need weapons - he was a healthy young 6' male and she was a 61-year-old woman in average shape. He didn't need to go back to his room and 'manufacture' a weapon.

If SWM did yell abuse at him, he could have just strangled her if he was that enraged, as you say, he's big healthy guy. It just seems weird to me that he went from 0-100 in a rage about a woman he didn't even know cursing at him. If he had interacted with her over months or years even, it would be easier to understand a build up of tension and ill feelings.

I'm of the opinion it's all HM, this is her territory, she's got the pent up rage against her mother. What if HM attacked SWM with a vase or ashtray but SWM was still breathing, HM panicked, texts or called TS to come quick with something to finish her mother off with, and he did her bidding and came with an object, which he used on entering or HM did, to kill SWM.

This scenario only works if HM was in the room with SWM prior to TS arriving. jmo
Hopefully, we will see CCTV footage to clear this up.

 

[gracehatter]

I want to make sure no one thinks I'm victim bashing yet I found one entry on HM's Spring.me board interesting, her response to the question "Who inspires you?". The only entry that references her Mother I believe.

 

[Mountain Misst]

The discrepancy on the weapons is particularly hard to understand. Early accounts said there were two pieces of glass, a vase and an ashtray, in SWM's room. Both were broken, allegedly used as weapons. Now...no mention of them, just TS's home-made weapon.

When I first read about the disguised weapon, I wondered if he was just walking around with a hand under his shirt in his waistband, like some guys do.

It will be interesting to hear when HM says SWM called him the 'N' word. Seems to me that if he was that upset about the use of the word, he would have reacted immediately, using anything at hand (like a heavy vase or an ashtray). Heck, the guy didn't need weapons - he was a healthy young 6' male and she was a 61-year-old woman in average shape. He didn't need to go back to his room and 'manufacture' a weapon.

Apart from the local story within Bali/Indonesia in general, how much we hear about the trial will likely depend on the amount of interest by the US media, IMO. It'll all be down to how much advertising their story will sell and whether it would be worth sending a journo, or just buy the independent AAP/Reuters feed.

 

[FormerOakParker]

I want to make sure no one thinks I'm victim bashing yet I found one entry on HM's Spring.me board interesting, her response to the question "Who inspires you?". The only entry that references her Mother I believe.

HM also mentions something about her mom being totally sane...not.

 

[Curious Me]

:laughitup: That's quite a reach, Quester, on the 8:40 theory.

 

[Quester]

:laugh: That's quite a reach, Quester, on the 8:40 theory.

:giggle:

However, the more I've thought about it the less I think it's a reach.

If TS & MS didn't want to use their cell phones because of the record it would have left; and TS appeared to be fond of pot or at least referred to it in some online posts; and if he/they were familiar with the 840 pot meaning - which is probably likely; then 8:40am would have been an easy time for them both to remember as in ... ok, I'll leave my room [616] at 8:40am - 840 get it, hahaha, squat!; go straight to your room [317]; be ready to open the door for me OR I'll use the keycard you gave me to enter the room then ... :notgood:

:groucho: But I could also be blowing an 840s worth of smoke!

 

[seaca]

Today is Heather Mack's 19th birthday, I believe. Date taken from the scan of her passport in an earlier post. I imagine she is having some day contemplating in solitary isolation. Compared to the lavish events supplied by her mother on previous birthdays, as described by her friends, this must be some comparison.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Subscribing....

 

[Orange Tabby]

Today is Heather Mack's 19th birthday, I believe. Date taken from the scan of her passport in an earlier post. I imagine she is having some day contemplating in solitary isolation. Compared to the lavish events supplied by her mother on previous birthdays, as described by her friends, this must be some comparison.

Mountain Misst posted a picture of Heather's passport in an earlier thread. It looks to me like Heather's date of birth is 11 October 1995.

See: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...4#post10922224