Body snatchers?

[dodie20]

While I have to believe that they would truely despise the idea of leaving her outside the house, it's not like they have not shown a willingness to go to great lengths to protect who they are protecting, and I would add, they did not hesitate to bolt and leave JB lying on the living room floor - and possibly in a filthy basement room.
The BBM portion above is where I have a hard time accepting this theory. How would they explain the return of JB? It would require a selling of the notion that a kidnapping and murdering foreign faction would return to the scene after the fact, after authorities are involved, and for no purpose. Also, If the plan was to have JB found dead in the house, why not skip any note, stage a break in, stage an assault and then call to report a missing child? It would avoid the chance of being connected to the note, and more importantly it avoids the bizarre situation of a ransom note where there is no kidnapping, which imo is the #1 factor that brought attention to the parents.

IMO, you're exactly right. The things that were done to JB showed that someone harbored a deep hatred for her and wanted her gone. So, IMO, that same person wouldn't have had a problem getting rid of the body, and just being done with the whole thing. This is a murderous mind we're talking about here. JB's skull had a huge hole in it, she was raped, and she was laying there with a 'garotte' contraption wrapped around her neck. Someone wasn't worried about doing what was proper. KWIM? IMO, they couldn't have it both ways. Love her but annihilate her...want what's proper, but degrade her...How can we believe that someone who brutalized and murdered their daughter would want to have a proper funeral? IMO, when their plans were thwarted, they Did have a proper funeral, (if being buried with a pageant crown can be considered proper), but Only because it was convenient. moo

 

[BOESP]

I am probably one of the few who do not believe the parents ever planned to "dump" her body or remove her from the home (except temporarily). First of all, they would never just "dump" her. No way would they leave her to be eaten by animals or found by cadaver dogs. (No open coffin in a pageant dress and tiara for sure).
I firmly believe that she was hidden in the wine cellar hoping that she would NOT be found and when the police and everyone else left, then they could call police again she say she had been returned, but the "kidnappers obviously killed her because we disobeyed their instructions in the note". <snip> Patsy's coffin-side comment to BR? "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?". Sure- perfect FOREVER.

DeeDee, (BBM) we sure do agree on that! So count me as one of the few. :dance:

Next-to-last-line, BBM: did Patsy really say that? TIA

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, (BBM) we sure do agree on that! So count me as one of the few. :dance:

Next-to-last-line, BBM: did Patsy really say that? TIA

Yes, I read that she DID say that.

 

[Whaleshark]

Patsy's own words tell the reason of the importance of the note when she stated 'Thank god they left a ransom note..... Because they left some evidence!'

And even after it being pointed out/asked of her during testimony that with JonBenet being found murdered in the house - did it still seem like a kidnapping... Patsy said, 'It seemed like kidnapping to me.'

No reconsideration at that point of it being a non-legit note by the Ramseys themselves, with their daughter left there... Everyone else seeing the obvious bogus staging of a ransom note with a body left behind, but not the Ramseys. They insisted it still looked like a kidnapping to them, and didn't question the logic of the scenario, didn't want to know more about the murder and specific condition or injuries to JonBenet, and stated the ransom note's utmost importance - to Patsy, that is, was that it was evidence - of an intruder for kidnapping for ransom... Not that it may have been staged evidence that wasn't real since their daughter was in the house anyway... But evidence that it was a kidnapping. By someone else.

This tells us the reason for the ransom note. In Patsy's own words.

If Patsy says she still believes it was a kidnapping due to the 'evidence' of the ransom note, despite the real evidence of the body, I think we know all we need to know about the reason for the ransom note.

In the ransom note writer's eyes, it explains the reason for the dead child, and it's supposed to not be due to anyone in the house, even though the dead child is still in the house.

This is Patsy's logic and her priorities and value system, not ours.

Just because it doesn't make sense to leave the body in the house along with a kidnapping ransom note to us, it still makes sense to Patsy, as stated in her own words, per her testimony.

It is what it is.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Patsy's own words tell the reason of the importance of the note when she stated 'Thank god they left a ransom note..... Because they left some evidence!'

And even after it being pointed out/asked of her during testimony that with JonBenet being found murdered in the house - did it still seem like a kidnapping... Patsy said, 'It seemed like kidnapping to me.'

No reconsideration at that point of it being a non-legit note by the Ramseys themselves, with their daughter left there... Everyone else seeing the obvious bogus staging of a ransom note with a body left behind, but not the Ramseys. They insisted it still looked like a kidnapping to them, and didn't question the logic of the scenario, didn't want to know more about the murder and specific condition or injuries to JonBenet, and stated the ransom note's utmost importance - to Patsy, that is, was that it was evidence - of an intruder for kidnapping for ransom... Not that it may have been staged evidence that wasn't real since their daughter was in the house anyway... But evidence that it was a kidnapping. By someone else.

This tells us the reason for the ransom note. In Patsy's own words.

If Patsy says she still believes it was a kidnapping due to the 'evidence' of the ransom note, despite the real evidence of the body, I think we know all we need to know about the reason for the ransom note.

In the ransom note writer's eyes, it explains the reason for the dead child, and it's supposed to not be due to anyone in the house, even though the dead child is still in the house.

This is Patsy's logic and her priorities and value system, not ours.

Just because it doesn't make sense to leave the body in the house along with a kidnapping ransom note to us, it still makes sense to Patsy, as stated in her own words, per her testimony.

It is what it is.

Agree! She creates this 'play', she wrote the 'script' and she plays the 'role'!... She MUST defends her CREATION, no way around....

...disgusting mind....:banghead:

jmo

 

[KarenUK]

Thanks for starting this thread, Rashi's daughter! This aspect deserves good exploration.

Yep, yep and yep.....had to plan to remove the body, or else no need for the "fake kidnappers" to leave the note. If the "kidnappers" would have decided or accidentally killed her, either way they would have removed the note.

The initial plan to remove the body was foiled - had to have been. Madelaine, wrapping the body to remove her makes sense, but if it had been planned to put her body in the car and remove it before the rest of the plan could be worked out, could have led to the R's being arrested immediately, IMO.

If an R would have put JB's body wrapped in the blanket, in the car somewhere, fibers - maybe even fuzzies - from the white blanket would have been discovered in the car, unless she would have additionally been wrapped anything that would have prevented the transference, which still would have been iffy.
Fibers or fuzzies from the blanket could have been accounted for if: (this is scenario according to RN descriptions) the money was delivered, and JR was directed to where he could pick-up his daughter, where he would have found her dead and wrapped in her blanket, could have picked her up immediately and placed her in his car for further protection until either police arrived (called from his cell phone) or he sped somewhere else with her to end the event. But, without completing the ransom exchange, if she was gone, which the note indicated she should have been,there would have been no way those blanket fibers would have been in his car.

JB's body could not have seemingly been placed into the car until AFTER the money had been taken for exchange. This would have allowed for an R to have placed her in the car from the house, keeping her there under guise of taking the ransom.

That now leaves two options: to get her her body out of the house by another maneuver, prior to calling in police so she wouldn't be found in the house (which is what the note indicated) under any circumstances, or keep the body hidden until there might be a chance to get it out later.

An attempt to put her in the suitcase, and somehow get the suitcase out of the house, other than by placing it in the car, might have seemed an option. Until it was tried, (there were duvet fibers on her shirt) and discovered the fit wasn't right, or if it was possible to close and latch the suitcase (which was drawn by another poster once), when the attempt to get the suitcase out through the window might have been tried, (allowing the window debris to come into the basement) it was discovered the suitcase was too large, which it was later documented. Then, the only option was to hide her somewhere until the body could be removed later.

This is the first time I have posted my thought about the fracture of JB's skull in connection with the suitcase: I do not doubt the bash produced the oval displacement of skull that was found during autopsy. But I have wondered if the 8" fracture might have occurred when the suitcase lid was closed and latched on her. If her skull was just a bit too large for the suitcase to close easily, and the closing was forced????? Once she was removed from the suitcase, the fracture could have expanded.

If there had been fibres from the blanket found in the car, could they have explained it as the blanket was from the house - maybe they had pack it in the boot for a trip or one of the children had wrapped themselves in it on a long car trip?
Given some of the evidence found on JBs body (fibres from being wiped down etc), I'm not 100% sure that the Ramseys were aware of forsensics and the capability to match certain fibres to there origin, otherwise they might have been more careful?

 

[madeleine]

something happens....a kid has an accident.....what's the other option besides calling 911?

getting her dressed and and maybe wrapping her up in a blanket (cold outside) because you wanna rush her to the hospital....?

but something happens?

is it possible?

 

[madeleine]

”You will also be denied her remains for proper burial.”

to me this sounds like another excuse for JB never being returned (and body not found)....it explains JB being gone not found dead in the house

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Thank you all for your posts! Everyone has very interesting theories. DeeDee, you are amazing, as I think you have probably figured out exactly what was the original intent here.:great:
I do wonder though why did the Ramseys break the cellar window, and why was the suitcase there? The reason I think that the window was somehow part of the crime was the bizarre and convoluted explanation JR gave about how he broke it and then entered it in his underwear. WHAT??? It had to have something to do with the night of the 25th, or the Ramseys would never have made up that cockamamie story. And then we have the suitcase and its contents. Did the Ramsey's think that they could make it appear as if the Foreign kidnappers had used a book to help lure JB to the site of the hideout? Or just to have something entertaining for her to look at? What about the duvet fibers? Nothing in that cellar was there by chance, everything has some relevance to the crime or it would not be in the WC.:moo:

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

One more question... Does anyone know if LE ever took the Ramsey cars in for forensic testing? I know that they had an attached garage. Easy enough access to the cars without having to go out into the street.

 

[deca]

I think plans were changing rapidly that night and the Ramsey's panickedly (is that a word? :waitasec considered quite a few different plans as the night went on. These people weren't experts and I don't think this murder was premeditated- so they had to think on the fly and under a time crunch.

So as far as the "original" plan- well I bet there were at least a few and I wouldn't be surprised if these were some of them the R's thought up, even if they were discounted within minutes.

1. get her out of the house, pretend she ran away then had accident
2. accident in the house ( like she fell down the stairs)
3. kidnapped, removed from house, dumped nearby to be found by search party
4. kidnapped, never to be found
5. kidnapped, but they left her in the house

I imagine them sniping/*****ing at each other as they work their way to the "final" plan, staging and unstaging as things occurred to them (for example wiping off the flashlight)

 

[InstantProof]

I am probably one of the few who do not believe the parents ever planned to "dump" her body or remove her from the home (except temporarily). First of all, they would never just "dump" her. No way would they leave her to be eaten by animals or found by cadaver dogs. (No open coffin in a pageant dress and tiara for sure).
I firmly believe that she was hidden in the wine cellar hoping that she would NOT be found and when the police and everyone else left, then they could call police again she say she had been returned, but the "kidnappers obviously killed her because we disobeyed their instructions in the note". To me, this explains both the note and the presence of the dead body.
This original plan was thwarted when police did NOT leave, and it became apparent to JR that they were not GOING to leave them alone in the house. When he realized the police were staying until they, themselves, were going to have to leave the house, JR formed "Plan B" (possibly without consulting Patsy". He had to "find" her himself and he took the first opportunity to do so, courtesy of Det. Arndt. That is why he made the statements about wanting to get a blanket to cover her up so Patsy "wouldn't have to see her that way". HE had ALREADY seen her that way- when he made his 10 am trip to the basement during his unaccounted-for time out of Arndt's sight. But I would venture to say that Patsy, while she saw her daughter dead, had not seen her fully stiffened by rigor, blue, with mouth agape from rigor, hands pulled up, etc- the way she looked 10-12 hours LATER. A just-dead body looks asleep, in general. A body dead 10-12 hours looks VERY different and VERY DEAD. I believe this is what JR was trying to spare her from seeing. The next time Patsy and family saw her was in her coffin, rigor finally gone, make up to hide the pallor, hair washed and curled, and in her pageant finery. Patsy's coffin-side comment to BR? "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?". Sure- perfect FOREVER.

This is exactly what I think happened.
Sometimes in movies the police don't stick around long after a kidnapping.

 

[dodie20]

I pick

I think plans were changing rapidly that night and the Ramsey's panickedly (is that a word? :waitasec considered quite a few different plans as the night went on. These people weren't experts and I don't think this murder was premeditated- so they had to think on the fly and under a time crunch.

So as far as the "original" plan- well I bet there were at least a few and I wouldn't be surprised if these were some of them the R's thought up, even if they were discounted within minutes.

1. get her out of the house, pretend she ran away then had accident
2. accident in the house ( like she fell down the stairs)
3. kidnapped, removed from house, dumped nearby to be found by search party
4. kidnapped, never to be found
5. kidnapped, but they left her in the house

I imagine them sniping/*****ing at each other as they work their way to the "final" plan, staging and unstaging as things occurred to them (for example wiping off the flashlight)

I pick number 4, mainly because this is what seems to usually happen. Parents who kill their children don't normally manipulate the situation in order to have a proper funeral...even the parents who love their children. They dump their bodies and then lie and hope the body isn't found. I guess in a true rage/remorse situation, a parent would rush his child to the hospital and make up an accident, but this isn't the case here. This was more of a murder and then murder again situation. The option of rushing JB to the hospital ceased sometime around the rape and final strangulation. There's evidence of a rage, but not much evidence of remorse. The murdering just kept coming and coming until JB was finally dead. This is one of those grey areas that makes me think that only 1 parent was involved, at least initially. If both parents were involved, they had all of the time in the world to get rid of the body, fine tune the note, get rid of evidence, stage a break-in etc., and then later say they were just following the note's instructions. Something happened to cause the killer to not dump the body. IMO, he/she ran out of time. First of all, the note took too long to write and then it became time for the other parent to wake up. IMO, the killer might have still planned to dump the body after the police left, but that plan changed once he/she realized the cops weren't going anywhere. And then JR 'found' the body. moo

 

[BOESP]

I can't see them putting JonBenet out in the cold under any circumstances. I also can't see Patsy missing the opportunity to play the poor me role at JonBenet's funeral. Who puts their child in pageant wear at their funeral?

 

[UKGuy]

I think plans were changing rapidly that night and the Ramsey's panickedly (is that a word? :waitasec considered quite a few different plans as the night went on. These people weren't experts and I don't think this murder was premeditated- so they had to think on the fly and under a time crunch.

So as far as the "original" plan- well I bet there were at least a few and I wouldn't be surprised if these were some of them the R's thought up, even if they were discounted within minutes.

1. get her out of the house, pretend she ran away then had accident
2. accident in the house ( like she fell down the stairs)
3. kidnapped, removed from house, dumped nearby to be found by search party
4. kidnapped, never to be found
5. kidnapped, but they left her in the house

I imagine them sniping/*****ing at each other as they work their way to the "final" plan, staging and unstaging as things occurred to them (for example wiping off the flashlight)

deca,
4. Is the optimal solution.

Why, because the fly in the Ramsey ointment, is that JonBenet was violently assaulted, both physically and sexually, prior to being kidnapped and real kidnappers just do not behave that way. So if she is never found, her injuries are hidden from detection.

Two possible reasons that 4. was not enacted might be:

1. BR carried out most of the staging, and both JR and PR discovered JonBenet at a later stage, and PR vetoed JonBenet being dumped outdoors.

2. JR carried out most of the staging, then ran out of time as their flight schedule loomed?

CSI suggests it is nearly always the killer who finds the body, the killer is usually in staging mode and thinks erroneously that he can deceive those around him.

My preferred interpretation is that the kidnapping was never expected to be successful. The purpose of the staging is to neither fake a kidnapping or a homicide. It is to completely hide whatever took place that night, i.e. remove forensic evidence from upstairs and simply dump it into the wine-cellar.

Thats why they called all their friends over, more confusion and mess, or in some instance, a complete wiping away of forensic evidence under the guise of house-cleaning.

I reckon the Ramsey's rolled the dice on dumping JonBenet and the forensic evidence into the wine-cellar, and hoped that the best outcome would be not enough evidence for any conviction?

.

 

[wengr]

I don't see why the possibility of an R leaving JB elsewhere is hard to accept? After all we have all seen the autopsy photos. The autopsy photos are the proper perspective for considering what someone was willing to do to JB. Maybe one fatal injury could be explained by rage, but we have two different injuries. Fwiw, someone who would tighten that cord around her neck is without a doubt capable of leaving her outside.

 

[dodie20]

I don't see why the possibility of an R leaving JB elsewhere is hard to accept? After all we have all seen the autopsy photos. The autopsy photos are the proper perspective for considering what someone was willing to do to JB. Maybe one fatal injury could be explained by rage, but we have two different injuries. Fwiw, someone who would tighten that cord around her neck is without a doubt capable of leaving her outside.

Exactly. Someone wanted JB dead and gone. And from I can tell, there were opportunities to stop the assault and get help, but no, just to be 100% sure, somebody finished her off with a rape and that garotte. Love and remorse? I don't think so. I see hate and self preservation. Come on now, that 118,000 ransom showed how little JB was worth to the killer. I think somebody sat there and thought about how much money he/she was willing to lose, in case they couldn't get it back. A pitiful, paltry sum. Yes, PR put on a show at the funeral...dressed like Jackie O and buried JB with a tiara, but what choice did she have? I don't know if that suitcase played a part in a dump plan, but I do believe it just might have.

 

[dodie20]

I can't see them putting JonBenet out in the cold under any circumstances. I also can't see Patsy missing the opportunity to play the poor me role at JonBenet's funeral. Who puts their child in pageant wear at their funeral?

yes, PR rose to the occasion with her 'poor me' role, but IMO, she could have played the mother of a missing pageant princess just as well. Made the talk show rounds, showed her bizarre pictures and videos, begged people to be on the look out, all the while pretending to follow up leads on child slavery. IMO, PR had the flair and drama to rise to almost any occasion. moo

 

[dodie20]

Parents abuse their children to death. They abuse and abuse and then it escalates to the point that the only thing left to do is murder. The grand jury found evidence of abuse that resulted in death, and IMO, this is probably exactly what happened. I think there might come a point, when some abusers feel like the jig is up, and they might resort to murder. Either because the abuse led to a really bad injury, or because he thinks he's fixing to be found out. It has been reported that some of PR's friends were planning a mega JB intervention. Consider this...if she was consistently abusing JB, and/or knew that JR was abusing her, how would she have felt about her friends nosing into her private business? IDK what has been said about the content of the intervention, but IMO, the sexualization of JB would have been a concern. IMO, a woman like PR would not want any of these friends talking to JB, maybe finding out their secrets. PR's reaction to the revelation that LE was aware of the prior abuse, compared to her later flat denial of any abuse, is very telling. This changearoo points to the prior abuse as maybe being a main motive in the murder. Maybe not for the head bash, but I'm not even willing to rule that out as premeditated. I think about BR saying someone 'quietly' took JB, and I don't see much rage here. And without the rage, I see premeditation. This wouldn't be the 1st case of a murderer being forced to switch weapons. Once the killer realized the bash didn't get the job done, he finished her off with the strangulation. moo

 

[DeeDee249]

The way I see it is not "well, she has been SO abused we have to kill her at this point.
Rather- I see her as being abused forcefully enough to cause her to scream, and she was then bashed to shut her up. THAT is what I feel the GJ actually believed happened. That would certainly be "abuse leading to death". It could also be that the asphyxiation was part of a sexual assault and led to her death. My problem with this is the scream. She could never have screamed while being strangled. And I can't see the blow happening another way. I suppose BR could have gotten angry and bashed her, but how does the scream happen? Because after that bash she wasn't doing any screaming.