One thing I've imagined, is JB screaming because she saw the weapon aimed at her fixing to bash her. There's no way to ever know, of course, but you're right about her not being able to scream because of the strangulation.
Body snatchers?
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191
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midwest mama
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I don't think the ransom money would really have been dropped. Oh, JR would have said that he did, but since there was $18,000 in $20's and the rest in $100's, don't you think that it would have been pretty easy for him to stash that money somewhere and then just casually spent it as needed for however long it took? After all, the "kidnappers" would have picked up the dropped cash and made off with it before notifying him of where to "pick up" JB. Unless they "called" him then (**see other option below) and said, "Ha Ha - joke's on you, you're not getting her back after all"! Click. (And no cops trailing him if he would have completed the plan as the note outlined - so there would be no dropped money to trail either).
Twenty bucks here and there for a while, until the heat wore off, and then those hundies would have just been pretty common in a millionaire's wallet, for however long it would take to treat their pals to dinner, I'd say.
Who knows, maybe the suitcase was going to be used at some point later if the plan was to dump her and not have her be found. JR was advised that the delivery of the ransom was going to be exhausting, that he should be well-rested. It has been speculated that the time for the call, according to the note should have been 8-10 am on the 27th, not the 26th. But, JR went ahead and made arrangements for the money at 7:30 am.
After the call didn't come, I think it was expected police would leave. Then Patsy and Burke could have been sent off in the company plane (so they'd be safe) to meet the other kids in Minneapolis as planned and take them all to Michigan. (JR declined to have Archuletta go after them once they learned JB was missing). Since JR would have been 'monitored' getting the money early, he would have then gotten an earlier call (the evening of the 26th) for the 'pick-up' and could have then put JB, placed into the suitcase, in the car and driven her (under darkness) to a far away 'exhausting' (fake) delivery spot for the ransom money, dropped her, then (**) returned to where he was instructed near Boulder (by a note - from sheets missing from the notepad), only to 'find' another note saying, "Too bad you called cops, now she's dead and you'll never see her again."
Of course, he'd have called police, and all the extra miles on his car, if checked out somehow, would have explained that his drop was far away enough to be exhausting, and he would have, of course, told police he'd have gone in an entirely opposite direction of what he did to drop the body. In the odd chance the suitcase was found, the decomposition, with the ligature in place, would have looked like a 'beheading', garrote style.
Sorry if this all sounds too far-fetched or like a crime novel. Just a sleepy old rambling gal who is desperate to see the case get solved.
fftobed:
madeleine
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I was thinking about the items that are missing (the cloth she was wiped off with,the panties,the roll of tape,the gloves...what else am I missing?)
when the Ramseys left the house that afternoon,where they allowed to take bags,suitcases,etc with them??
when the Ramseys left the house that afternoon,where they allowed to take bags,suitcases,etc with them??
madeleine
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I know that PR's sister went to "empty" the house days later but I don't think they left such incriminating evidence behind (way too risky),JB's bloody panties for ex
when was the butlers door first seen open,what time?
and MAYBE that's what JR was doing,we always assumed he disappeared and went to the basement but maybe he went to hide/get rid of the evidence?
when was the butlers door first seen open,what time?
and MAYBE that's what JR was doing,we always assumed he disappeared and went to the basement but maybe he went to hide/get rid of the evidence?
IDK what they were allowed to take, but like Dee said, LE was told to treat them like victims, so...I imagine they took suitcases, JR's 'dock kit', PR's purse, etc. I wish LE watched them pack and went through their pockets and her purse, but I doubt they did. No telling what they walked away with.
madeleine
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what about their cars?what did they leave with?
oh my oh my I so would LOVE to read the Fernies interviews with LE
madeleine
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unbelievable
18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can tell you this,
19 I can tell you I have suspicion, and I have
20 thought about almost everybody we knew, because
21 you just don't trust people anymore. People
22 that I would never, you think could have been,
23 you know, John Fernie, oh, God, no, but how do
24 you know. I have never, ever had that thought
25 about Patsy. Or Burke.
so these people welcome you in their home and you try pointing fingers at them?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can tell you this,
19 I can tell you I have suspicion, and I have
20 thought about almost everybody we knew, because
21 you just don't trust people anymore. People
22 that I would never, you think could have been,
23 you know, John Fernie, oh, God, no, but how do
24 you know. I have never, ever had that thought
25 about Patsy. Or Burke.
so these people welcome you in their home and you try pointing fingers at them?
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FWIW Boulder Canyon is less than 5 minutes from the R's house. There are numerous places to pull over throughout the canyon where you can get out of the car and just take off up the mountain side. This is very rugged territory. There are some houses and lodges but the farther from town you travel, the more desolate it gets until you get to Nederland and the Boulder Reservoir (less than a 30 minute drive in good weather). At Nederland there are several different roads leading off into the wilderness. There are many abandoned mines around. Hikers get lost in these mountains and some are never found. Bear are common in the area, and even wander down into Boulder from time to time. There are an endless number of places to dump a body where it would never be found, at least not by humans.
IMO JR intended to take her up into the canyon and let nature take it's course. The chances of her ever being found up there are infinitesimally small.
IMO JR intended to take her up into the canyon and let nature take it's course. The chances of her ever being found up there are infinitesimally small.
Very interesting. And would this not bring about the best possible outcome? The main piece of evidence (the body), never to be found or found after some time and therefore of little evidentiary value. I agree that the plans probably evolved, and that if more than one person was planning that maybe they did not agree, but imo to assume that there was no thought of removal while a kidnapping was being staged, and in light of fact that no body equals the best chance of evading prosecution seems counter intuitive.
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ITA wengr! Why leave a RN and JB? It's JMO, but it seems so obvious to me that the note was written with the intention of removing her from the house. There is just no other reason to write it.
No body being found is the best chance to get away with murder. No body = no evidence. I can think of two cases right now, one in KC and one in Maine, where a little girl is missing and (most) everyone in both cases "knows" the parent(s) did it. Without the body, no arrests have been made in either case, and probably never will be.
If he/she/they had removed JB from the house, they might not have been suspected as much as they were. There certainly wouldn't have been as much evidence against either of them. It just seems like they were too smart to have thought that leaving her in the house was a good idea.
It was explained that the flashlight looked filthy in the photos because it had been dusted for fingerprints. It was that dust that was all over it, not actual dirt.
IDK what to think about that ransom. I have mixed feelings about the amount. On one hand, I think PR, unbeknownst to JR, may have found out about the bonus and put it in out of slyness...either angry that she wasn't told or because she knew that since he deliberately kept the info from her, he wouldn't suspect her. On the other hand though, I think the bonus was put in out of pure stinginess. This money was a bonus, so extra, so no sweat off their backs. Also, I've suspected that PR used that amount to let JR know that SHE had outsmarted him, so he had better watch out. Whatever the reason, I do believe the amount was used because the author knew about the bonus. mooI don't think the ransom money would really have been dropped. Oh, JR would have said that he did, but since there was $18,000 in $20's and the rest in $100's, don't you think that it would have been pretty easy for him to stash that money somewhere and then just casually spent it as needed for however long it took? After all, the "kidnappers" would have picked up the dropped cash and made off with it before notifying him of where to "pick up" JB. Unless they "called" him then (**see other option below) and said, "Ha Ha - joke's on you, you're not getting her back after all"! Click. (And no cops trailing him if he would have completed the plan as the note outlined - so there would be no dropped money to trail either).
Twenty bucks here and there for a while, until the heat wore off, and then those hundies would have just been pretty common in a millionaire's wallet, for however long it would take to treat their pals to dinner, I'd say.
Who knows, maybe the suitcase was going to be used at some point later if the plan was to dump her and not have her be found. JR was advised that the delivery of the ransom was going to be exhausting, that he should be well-rested. It has been speculated that the time for the call, according to the note should have been 8-10 am on the 27th, not the 26th. But, JR went ahead and made arrangements for the money at 7:30 am.
After the call didn't come, I think it was expected police would leave. Then Patsy and Burke could have been sent off in the company plane (so they'd be safe) to meet the other kids in Minneapolis as planned and take them all to Michigan. (JR declined to have Archuletta go after them once they learned JB was missing). Since JR would have been 'monitored' getting the money early, he would have then gotten an earlier call (the evening of the 26th) for the 'pick-up' and could have then put JB, placed into the suitcase, in the car and driven her (under darkness) to a far away 'exhausting' (fake) delivery spot for the ransom money, dropped her, then (**) returned to where he was instructed near Boulder (by a note - from sheets missing from the notepad), only to 'find' another note saying, "Too bad you called cops, now she's dead and you'll never see her again."
Of course, he'd have called police, and all the extra miles on his car, if checked out somehow, would have explained that his drop was far away enough to be exhausting, and he would have, of course, told police he'd have gone in an entirely opposite direction of what he did to drop the body. In the odd chance the suitcase was found, the decomposition, with the ligature in place, would have looked like a 'beheading', garrote style.
Sorry if this all sounds too far-fetched or like a crime novel. Just a sleepy old rambling gal who is desperate to see the case get solved.
I think both parents had input on the note, with Patsy physically writing it. I think the bonus amount was chosen because they wanted to be able to suggest blame on someone who worked with/for JR and Access Graphics. They threw blame in a lot of different directions with that note- a disgruntled employee, a "small foreign faction" (who would NEVER describe themselves that way), an intruder/pedophile, or someone who knew the family intimately. They hoped one of them would stick. Yet- knew they couldn't name any group or person too specifically because that WOULD be able to be verified by LE and it would be obvious that the note was a fake.
The note explained (after the fact) the previous event of the night- the death of JB. Call someone- talk to anyone - and she dies. What better way to explain why you had a dead chid in the house than to threaten to kill her if you call anyone and then-call everyone!
The note explained (after the fact) the previous event of the night- the death of JB. Call someone- talk to anyone - and she dies. What better way to explain why you had a dead chid in the house than to threaten to kill her if you call anyone and then-call everyone!
there are some things that most definitely sound like JR-like the percentages and ransom amount, but I'm just not convinced that he helped compose it. After reading his nauseating account of his and PR's engagement though, I think I've been giving him undo credit for his writing skills. I assumed he would have had the sense to keep the note short, but IDK anymore. Seems JR writes with added drama and details too! There was something really weird about his writing, kind of effiminate? I guess I should read his whole book, but I don't think I could stomach much more of that drivel. moo
DeeDee249,
Pardon the pun, but are you not jumping the gun? JonBenet was long dead and demonstratabley so, before any calls were made. I reckon you are over rationalising the ransom note.
Its a staged artifact, its not meant to represent reality, past or present. I think for whatever the reason was, the R's abandonded their prior plans and simply dumped JonBenet along with the forensic evidence into the wine-cellar, job done! Then they probably wrote the ransom note, possibly with multiple drafts, that were each burned or eaten afterwards, even bleached down the
sink?
They simply rolled the dice on a bad situation, they were caught bang to rights, so they cleaned everything upstairs, removed the evidence down to the basement, and hoped LEA would either not find the body or leave soon after the deadline passed. In the event JonBenet was found the R's thought they had created a crime-scene with enough deniability, so to avoid a guilty verdict, but not a court case. Fate smiled on them, the dice rolled a double six. There was no arrest, no indictment and it all panned out.
.
midwest mama
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We just keep:deadhorse: about this, don't we! Right along with hundreds of others who can't let this case go because that lovely little child lost her life too soon!
I am sticking to my opinion that the ransom note was designed to be able to get rid of JB's body, to be found dead because the R's did not follow the directions. I believe the ransom money would have been "delivered", at which time they would have learned either through a fake call or a fake note that JB was dead because they messed up. I also believe there might have been an option to not have her be "picked up" somewhere, but because the note was altered from "delivery" to "pick up", that seems the more likely case - so they could have their "proper burial" a.k.a. 'funeral production'.
The original plan did not work out, because of Arndt hanging around and the arrangements being made to keep police right on their backs, so there was no option but to alter the outcome. And the fact that it succeeded so well is MADDENING. :furious:
midwest mama,
This could have been the original intention?
This I fail to understand. The R's were never in a position to predict the future. For all they knew the police might arrive in an unmarked car?
How do the kidnappers know the R's failed if they are sitting about at another location awaiting a ransom drop off?
If the kidnappers do not phone back by the deadline, then how are the R's to blame?
IMO the ransom note is simply a crime-scene construct to allow JonBenet to be moved from her bed to the wine-cellar, otherwise you have a bedroom assault, which patently implicates the R's in a manner the wine-cellar does not when you add in the ransom note.
It might be the original intent was to dump JonBenet outdoors, but once the logistics were worked out, the R's realized a dead JonBenet dumped outdoors is not much different from a dead JonBenet dumped into the wine-cellar, because in both cases the Ransom Demand is never met, since there was no kidnapping! I can envisage Patsy vetoing dumping JonBenet outdoors, when the outcome is the same in both cases.
Yes we are flogging the proverbial dead horse, but thats better than eating it LOL.
.
Not sure what you mean by jumping the gun-pun or not. What difference did it make how long she had been dead as far as the note was concerned? It only mattered that she WAS already dead- and the note was written after te fact to give a public explanation why.