Body snatchers?

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midwest mama,

This could have been the original intention?


This I fail to understand. The R's were never in a position to predict the future. For all they knew the police might arrive in an unmarked car?

How do the kidnappers know the R's failed if they are sitting about at another location awaiting a ransom drop off?

If the kidnappers do not phone back by the deadline, then how are the R's to blame?

IMO the ransom note is simply a crime-scene construct to allow JonBenet to be moved from her bed to the wine-cellar, otherwise you have a bedroom assault, which patently implicates the R's in a manner the wine-cellar does not when you add in the ransom note.

It might be the original intent was to dump JonBenet outdoors, but once the logistics were worked out, the R's realized a dead JonBenet dumped outdoors is not much different from a dead JonBenet dumped into the wine-cellar, because in both cases the Ransom Demand is never met, since there was no kidnapping! I can envisage Patsy vetoing dumping JonBenet outdoors, when the outcome is the same in both cases.


Yes we are flogging the proverbial dead horse, but thats better than eating it LOL.




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The note said the R's and the authorities were under constant scrutiny. No reason to believe someone from the "foreign faction" wasn't able to 'monitor' their phone calls. IF Patsy was involved in any of the scenario, her call for police and friends would have assured a dead body being found later.

This website has an interesting layout of the ransom note - it is stitched together in one long page, and laid with the tablet lines straight, which then show a lack of margin drift:
http://www.trialrun.com/pop-ups/ramsey_note-all.html

Seeing the note this way somehow gives a different view of it. IMO, it looks more aggressive - again, JMO.

When the awaited call did not come in with further instructions on the 26th, I suspect JR figured the police would then confirm that the call was meant for the 27th, and would disband from his home, allowing him the opportunity to shuffle Patsy off to be with Burke, maybe even then making arrangements for them to go on to Michigan?

IMO, I suspect JR counted on being able to get JB's body into his car at some time following the time after Patsy, police and friends had been cleared. He may have envisioned being allowed to wait alone in the house during the remaining time until it was time to start over again the next day to wait for the ransom call. The end of the note was very clear that it was totally up to John, allowing for him to be expected to be a lone operative.

If Arndt had made a decision to leave the home along with other officers, JR would have had a clear path to convince everyone that it would be best for everyone to leave him alone in the house to 'sit tight', rest for the 'exhausting delivery' that would have to be made, and get ready to make the drop and then pick up his daughter?

EXCEPT, Kidnapping gone bad: R's observed bringing in police and friends = dead JB. But "Kidnappers" go ahead and collect ransom money, before they let JR know where to find JB (assaulted and dead). :moo:
 
Not sure what you mean by jumping the gun-pun or not. What difference did it make how long she had been dead as far as the note was concerned? It only mattered that she WAS already dead- and the note was written after te fact to give a public explanation why.

DeeDee, iirc, didn't some of the Ramsey apologists state way-back-when that JonBenet and her kidnapper were hidden in the basement; that when the kidnapper saw the police, friends, and other invited visitors arrive that morning, at that point they decided to kill JonBenet, hid her in the wine cellar, then escaped (unnoticed) through the basement window or else sneaked out a back door near the butler's pantry?

That note was as phony as a three-dollar bill.
 
Not sure what you mean by jumping the gun-pun or not. What difference did it make how long she had been dead as far as the note was concerned? It only mattered that she WAS already dead- and the note was written after te fact to give a public explanation why.

DeeDee249,
Because JonBenet's TOD death can be estimated, thereby disproving any subsequent Ramsey claim that she was killed because they did not comply with the demands in the ransom note.

i.e. Any theory based on a Ramsey or representative delivering the ranson then being told where to find JonBenet, falls down here.


.
 
DeeDee249,
Because JonBenet's TOD death can be estimated, thereby disproving any subsequent Ramsey claim that she was killed because they did not comply with the demands in the ransom note.

i.e. Any theory based on a Ramsey or representative delivering the ranson then being told where to find JonBenet, falls down here.


.

Maybe. Maybe not. If she were never found, or found weeks or months later, they would only be able to estimate TOD to within a day or two. It all depends on how long until she was found.
 
DeeDee249,
Because JonBenet's TOD death can be estimated, thereby disproving any subsequent Ramsey claim that she was killed because they did not comply with the demands in the ransom note.

i.e. Any theory based on a Ramsey or representative delivering the ranson then being told where to find JonBenet, falls down here.


.

I doubt the writer of the ransom note was giving any consideration to her TOD being able to be forensically established. Whether the assault upon JB's vagina was done to cover-up any sign of former sexual abuse that might have been suspected, or done to make it look like her death was part of a sexual attack, the perpetrator wasn't giving much thought to the fact that an autopsy would also provide other information.

JB's death and the connected ransom note was NOT done by seasoned criminals who would have given much thought to any of the technological aspects of forensic discovery. The goal of the cover-up provided was simply to explain away her death as having been done by someone other than a household member - preferably a couple of crazed foreign killers who just couldn't keep their hands off darling JB, but who would try to get away with extorting money anyway. I can't believe any R as a perpetrator of this crime would have even considered that JB's body might have been studied by autopsy.

Whoever staged her body tried to have her end up looking exactly like a child who had been assaulted and then strangled to death, end of story. I believe it was assumed that there would never be a question of cause or time of death. JB left the White's alive, the ransom note said someone took her that night, and IF she was going to be found dead somewhere later, it would be obvious how she died. My personal opinion is that the plan was to NOT have her be found, but the body had to be prepared to look as it did, just in case it WAS later obtained by the R's. There HAD to be a thought that there would be a possibility she could be found - otherwise, why all the preparation of her body?
 


The above is a screen capture of the date and time of death as shown on JonBenet's autopsy. The time is 11:23 PM.

Is her TOD based solely on the ligature strangulation?

I ask since 30 minutes or up to two hours was the approximate time range given between the head trauma event and the strangulation event. If so, the head trauma may have occurred as early as 9:30 PM.

Has anyone else considered this in their timeline?
 


The above is a screen capture of the date and time of death as shown on JonBenet's autopsy. The time is 11:23 PM.

Is her TOD based solely on the ligature strangulation?

I ask since 30 minutes or up to two hours was the approximate time range given between the head trauma event and the strangulation event. If so, the head trauma may have occurred as early as 9:30 PM.

Has anyone else considered this in their timeline?

If you notice the D/T is 13:23 12/26/96 not 12/25. Not possible that this is actual TOD since she was "found" about 10 1/2 hrs earlier. Also they could never pinpoint TOD to the minute like that.
 
If you notice the D/T is 13:23 12/26/96 not 12/25. Not possible that this is actual TOD since she was "found" about 10 1/2 hrs earlier. Also they could never pinpoint TOD to the minute like that.

Yes, the date is puzzling. I can't remember but what time did John bring JonBenet up from the basement? Wasn't it about 11:30 AM. (I was mistaken when I said PM in my prior post, for PM would have been 23:23...my apologies for the error.)

Somehow, to me, putting the time she was "discovered" as the official time of death is, well, misleading.
 
Yes, the date is puzzling. I can't remember but what time did John bring JonBenet up from the basement? Wasn't it about 11:30 AM. (I was mistaken when I said PM in my prior post, for PM would have been 23:23...my apologies for the error.)

Somehow, to me, putting the time she was "discovered" as the official time of death is, well, misleading.

My mistake as well. I never was good with military time. :blushing: LOL That would be 11:23 AM, yes. He "found" her at approx. 1:04 pm IIRC, but did make the statement to JAR & MR's fiance that he found her at about 11:00 am. That discrepency has been debated for some time. But "officially" he found her at about 1:00 pm and brought her up from the basement then. So it is odd that either time would be listed since her estimated TOD has always been somewhere around 1:00 - 3:00 am, 12/26.

ETA: DUH!! See I told you I wasn't good with military time! 13:23 is 1:23 PM. Ok so not so much of a time difference.
 


The above is a screen capture of the date and time of death as shown on JonBenet's autopsy. The time is 11:23 PM.

Is her TOD based solely on the ligature strangulation?

I ask since 30 minutes or up to two hours was the approximate time range given between the head trauma event and the strangulation event. If so, the head trauma may have occurred as early as 9:30 PM.

Has anyone else considered this in their timeline?

I believe 13:23 is actually 1:23, isn't it? I had read that the coroner (for reasons unknown) used the time JB was found/brought up as the TOD. Military time (used here) recognizes hours after 12 Noon as 13=1, 14=2, etc.
 
I believe 13:23 is actually 1:23, isn't it? I had read that the coroner (for reasons unknown) used the time JB was found/brought up as the TOD. Military time (used here) recognizes hours after 12 Noon as 13=1, 14=2, etc.

Let's see, a body full of rigor at 13:23, no fluids drawn from the body to determine actual time of death, and an obvious murder - how messed up is that for a coroner to list the TOD as 12/26, 13:23! :doh:

Especially since knowing a close TOD usually can be a very key piece of forensic evidence in pointing to a MO, and hence, a possible suspect!:maddening:
 
I believe 13:23 is actually 1:23, isn't it? I had read that the coroner (for reasons unknown) used the time JB was found/brought up as the TOD. Military time (used here) recognizes hours after 12 Noon as 13=1, 14=2, etc.

Yep DeeDee. You are right. I have been in extreme senior citizen mode for almost a week now and probably shouldn't even be posting. You notice I put 11:23 PM which should have been 1:23 PM. Anyway, it would be nice to know that the autopsy didn't really have the discovery time as the official TOD.

Now, where did I put my mind. :waitasec:
 
I doubt the writer of the ransom note was giving any consideration to her TOD being able to be forensically established. Whether the assault upon JB's vagina was done to cover-up any sign of former sexual abuse that might have been suspected, or done to make it look like her death was part of a sexual attack, the perpetrator wasn't giving much thought to the fact that an autopsy would also provide other information.

JB's death and the connected ransom note was NOT done by seasoned criminals who would have given much thought to any of the technological aspects of forensic discovery. The goal of the cover-up provided was simply to explain away her death as having been done by someone other than a household member - preferably a couple of crazed foreign killers who just couldn't keep their hands off darling JB, but who would try to get away with extorting money anyway. I can't believe any R as a perpetrator of this crime would have even considered that JB's body might have been studied by autopsy.

Whoever staged her body tried to have her end up looking exactly like a child who had been assaulted and then strangled to death, end of story. I believe it was assumed that there would never be a question of cause or time of death. JB left the White's alive, the ransom note said someone took her that night, and IF she was going to be found dead somewhere later, it would be obvious how she died. My personal opinion is that the plan was to NOT have her be found, but the body had to be prepared to look as it did, just in case it WAS later obtained by the R's. There HAD to be a thought that there would be a possibility she could be found - otherwise, why all the preparation of her body?

midwest mama,
I doubt the writer of the ransom note was giving any consideration to her TOD being able to be forensically established.
You cannot be seereeous, really?

The primary purpose of the ransom note is to offer a reason/rationale for JonBenet being moved from her bedroom along with accompanying forensic evidence down to the wine-cellar. i.e. the R's were forensically aware, JR had read his John Douglas book. e.g. flashlight wiped clean.

I can't believe any R as a perpetrator of this crime would have even considered that JB's body might have been studied by autopsy.
I disagree 100%.

There HAD to be a thought that there would be a possibility she could be found - otherwise, why all the preparation of her body?
Forensic awareness, removal of prior evidence of any, blood, semen, hair, fibers, clothing, e.g. size-6 underwear; etc.

Just as no intruder would redress JonBenet in those size-12's no intruder would bother to bring along all the other evidence dumped into the wine-cellar or the basement, i.e. bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown, Barbie Doll, Partially Opened Gifts, and anything else we have not been told about.

This laundry list of evidential items alone indicates how forensically aware the R's were. It should also tell you that the R's knew their Kidnapping Scenario would not be particularly realistic.

The most the R's could attempt to gain from the crime-scene staging was deniability. Just enough smoke and mirrors in an attempt to avoid a guilty verdict. I reckon JR expected a court case, thats why he was lawyered so fast, with each family-member individually assigned different legal representatives. JR was going to use the cross-finger defense, regardless!

There could be no post-mortem plan based on the ransom note since it was a work of fiction, and the R's could not predict future events, never mind if they would be arrested on the spot?

The R's basically cleaned up the mess upstairs dumped stuff into the wine-cellar, hid the most incriminating evidence, and crossed their fingers. They rolled the dice and hoped the police would not find JonBenet. Then leave the R's alone, with a search ongoing, the R's would have options of flying interstate ASAP, possibly with JonBenet's corpse in a suitcase, or relocate her locally?

The ransom note is staged artifact, so cannot be used to speculate on future suspect behaviour.

e.g. John Ramsey intended to fetch the ransom demand fake paying the money, then later find, be notified, JonBenet was either in the wine-cellar, or elsewhere, why?

Because JR himself decided to find JonBenet, thereby denying that possibility! And also that since the Kidnappers never phoned that morning, the option that it really meant the next day, was also denied!




.
 
midwest mama,

You cannot be seereeous, really?

The primary purpose of the ransom note is to offer a reason/rationale for JonBenet being moved from her bedroom along with accompanying forensic evidence down to the wine-cellar. i.e. the R's were forensically aware, JR had read his John Douglas book. e.g. flashlight wiped clean.


I disagree 100%.


Forensic awareness, removal of prior evidence of any, blood, semen, hair, fibers, clothing, e.g. size-6 underwear; etc.

Just as no intruder would redress JonBenet in those size-12's no intruder would bother to bring along all the other evidence dumped into the wine-cellar or the basement, i.e. bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown, Barbie Doll, Partially Opened Gifts, and anything else we have not been told about.

This laundry list of evidential items alone indicates how forensically aware the R's were. It should also tell you that the R's knew their Kidnapping Scenario would not be particularly realistic.

The most the R's could attempt to gain from the crime-scene staging was deniability. Just enough smoke and mirrors in an attempt to avoid a guilty verdict. I reckon JR expected a court case, thats why he was lawyered so fast, with each family-member individually assigned different legal representatives. JR was going to use the cross-finger defense, regardless!

There could be no post-mortem plan based on the ransom note since it was a work of fiction, and the R's could not predict future events, never mind if they would be arrested on the spot?

The R's basically cleaned up the mess upstairs dumped stuff into the wine-cellar, hid the most incriminating evidence, and crossed their fingers. They rolled the dice and hoped the police would not find JonBenet. Then leave the R's alone, with a search ongoing, the R's would have options of flying interstate ASAP, possibly with JonBenet's corpse in a suitcase, or relocate her locally?

The ransom note is staged artifact, so cannot be used to speculate on future suspect behaviour.

e.g. John Ramsey intended to fetch the ransom demand fake paying the money, then later find, be notified, JonBenet was either in the wine-cellar, or elsewhere, why?

Because JR himself decided to find JonBenet, thereby denying that possibility! And also that since the Kidnappers never phoned that morning, the option that it really meant the next day, was also denied!




.
It appears we're on different tangents in seeing how this crime might have occurred and also the methodology in creating the ransom note with regard to providing a remedy for the dead body. Such is human nature - and why the old expression "there is more than one way to skin a cat" probably came about.

At least we can agree JB was murdered, by a Ramsey, and the intent was to try to pin it on anyone other than themselves? The circumstances, no matter what, have led to success for them all these years, in spite of there being reasons why they should have been prosecuted.

It now comes down to a simple fact: John Ramsey is the only person, based on any evidence presented so far, that can face charges related to the crime, short of a confession or discovery of a new suspect that would totally exonerate him as being murderously involved. There is, of course, the option that any previous suspect could be re-examined as a perpetrator, since been deemed "cleared" does not afford them immunity from renewed suspicion as long as the case remains an ongoing and open murder investigation - even if it is considered a cold case.
 
It appears we're on different tangents in seeing how this crime might have occurred and also the methodology in creating the ransom note with regard to providing a remedy for the dead body. Such is human nature - and why the old expression "there is more than one way to skin a cat" probably came about.

At least we can agree JB was murdered, by a Ramsey, and the intent was to try to pin it on anyone other than themselves? The circumstances, no matter what, have led to success for them all these years, in spite of there being reasons why they should have been prosecuted.

It now comes down to a simple fact: John Ramsey is the only person, based on any evidence presented so far, that can face charges related to the crime, short of a confession or discovery of a new suspect that would totally exonerate him as being murderously involved. There is, of course, the option that any previous suspect could be re-examined as a perpetrator, since been deemed "cleared" does not afford them immunity from renewed suspicion as long as the case remains an ongoing and open murder investigation - even if it is considered a cold case.

midwest mama,
I do not know how the crime occurred, but I'm fairly certain that there was no post-mortem masterplan that centered around the ransom-note. Simply because John Ramsey never made that choice. It was a clear option he had, and he declined it when he found JonBenet!

.
 
Now, did JB have an open casket funeral or was it strictly for viewing? If not, then was there ever an explanation for it not being open? I can't imagine PR not wanting everyone fawning over her pretty little princess for the last time.
 
Now, did JB have an open casket funeral or was it strictly for viewing? If not, then was there ever an explanation for it not being open? I can't imagine PR not wanting everyone fawning over her pretty little princess for the last time.

JB had an open casket for the wake/viewing. She was in a pageant dress with a tiara. The funeral, of course, always has a closed casket. The funeral and viewing are not the same thing.
 
My mistake as well. I never was good with military time. :blushing: LOL That would be 11:23 AM, yes. He "found" her at approx. 1:04 pm IIRC, but did make the statement to JAR & MR's fiance that he found her at about 11:00 am. That discrepency has been debated for some time. But "officially" he found her at about 1:00 pm and brought her up from the basement then. So it is odd that either time would be listed since her estimated TOD has always been somewhere around 1:00 - 3:00 am, 12/26.

ETA: DUH!! See I told you I wasn't good with military time! 13:23 is 1:23 PM. Ok so not so much of a time difference.

Quoting my own post to clarify another stupid statement I made. BBM What I meant was not much of a time difference between when she was "found" and the time listed. I still don't see how that could be listed as TOD when the ME said her TOD was 10 - 12 hours before she was found. This "13:23" time must be talking about when she was found dead, not when she actually died. If it is stating actual TOD then it's just one more really messed up thing in this case.
 
Quoting my own post to clarify another stupid statement I made. BBM What I meant was not much of a time difference between when she was "found" and the time listed. I still don't see how that could be listed as TOD when the ME said her TOD was 10 - 12 hours before she was found. This "13:23" time must be talking about when she was found dead, not when she actually died. If it is stating actual TOD then it's just one more really messed up thing in this case.

Nom de plume,
During the autopsy Coroner Meyer stated he could not determine TOD. So the time you refer to must be when she was found.


.
 
midwest mama,
I do not know how the crime occurred, but I'm fairly certain that there was no post-mortem masterplan that centered around the ransom-note. Simply because John Ramsey never made that choice. It was a clear option he had, and he declined it when he found JonBenet!

.

IMO, UKGuy, JR had to abandon his original 'masterplan', because the events ended up playing out in a different manner than he had envisioned. I suspect the only reason he 'declined' the option he created in his masterplan - to get rid of the body - was because he had no choice at that point, and here are reasons why he HAD to bring up her body from the WC, IMO:

1. Arndt established she and, eventually, other backup officers were not going to leave the house - no reasonable way left for JR to move the body out of the house before decomposition and odor might give it all away. As it was, IIRC, reports said there was a faint smell of death odor already beginning.
2. Cadaver dogs had been summoned to the premises, but were being kept secured until or unless they were requested. With Arndt's experience, she might have begun to detect decomp and called for the dogs.
3. Since it was established FW had already checked the basement, and JR had disappeared for that morning time frame, if the dogs were then called in and did the 'finding', or even if Arndt had backup officers begin another search of the house for incriminating evidence when they arrived and they found her, GUESS WHO WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY BEEN HAULED OFF!

No option for JR but to 'find' JB himself, and immediately begin the cross-finger pointing. :moo:
 

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