Bones

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A Similar Case

Around the time of Teresa Halbach’s disappearance, Kristine Rudy of Clark County, Wisconsin also went missing. She was last seen November 12, 2005. She was twenty-one years old and six months pregnant, married to Shaun Rudy. Search efforts were unsuccessful and in December, 2005 investigators discovered a burn pit — sound familiar?

In December, detectives piecing together a case against Christine’s husband Shaun were led to the suspect’s mother’s home in northwestern Clark County. According to court documents, they found a burn pile they believe Shaun used to destroy evidence of the crime. In that burn pile, they found what a well-respected forensic anthropologist determined were fetal remains.

Court documents show Dr. Leslie Eisenberg of the State Crime Lab in Madison wrote investigators asking them to consider the mechanisms by which the fetal remains, yet very few adult remains, made their way to the burn pile, and says it’s possible the fetus was deliberately removed and burned independently of the majority of the adult remains. (link)

The really interesting thing is that the victim’s body was found a few months later – fetus intact.

But investigators were surprised when what’s believed to be Christine Rudy’s body was found last month in the Chippewa River – the fetus was still intact.

It kind of throws us for a loop. It raised a couple questions, says Clark County Sheriff’s Department Chief Deputy Jim Backus.

The bones found in the burn pile were severely charred, but Dr. Eisenberg has an excellent reputation and it’s seen as somewhat unlikely that her analysis was wrong, Backus says.(audio)

Dr. Eisenberg incorrectly identified bones as human. Though it may be possible to make a mistake like that, it certainly calls her credibility into question. Had they not found the woman, would they have prosecuted Shaun Rudy with the bone evidence?

We must consider the possibility that Dr. Eisenberg may have been mistaken with the Halbach case as well. We know there were charred animal bones mixed in. Is it possible there was nothing but animal bones?

We can also consider that maybe the state revealed just enough to convince the public that Teresa’s remains were found — photographs of random bones in a box and high priced experts sifting through debris. If true, it’s possible Teresa’s body was never found because it wasn’t on the Avery property. Police were searching in the wrong place.

https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...e-bone-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/
 
DNA testing on one of the bones that had some tissue was done in TH's case. And that didn't involve Eisenberg.
 
Has anyone found any pictures of the quarry yet? any pictures of the bones found in the quarry? (human and not human) I just had a quick look again on http://www.stevenaverycase.org/photos/ and I guess there were just none taken. I don't know why I'm surprised at this point lol but was hoping to see what this quarry looked like.
 
DNA testing on one of the bones that had some tissue was done in TH's case. And that didn't involve Eisenberg.

But she is the one who decided certain bones were from the skull and showed evidence of being shot with a .22 caliber bullet. If she can't tell the difference between bones and normal fire debris in another case (in extremely close proximity of the SA case) it stands to reason she could be incorrect about those skull bones and the cause of death.
 
Nawwww. She wasn't the only one looking at the bones in this case and there was an ME in addition to DNA testing. DNA proves bones = TH and Pictures + Xrays prove GSW to 2 areas of skull.

Not even the defense is suggesting otherwise.
 
DNA proves bones = TH.
I am respectfully challenging this assertion.

The DNA results did not "prove" the cremains were TH, they indicated to a "high degree of probability" that they were.

To wit: From my post in the Kratz page and to save typing.

Kratz email to Culhane, where in he states, and I quote:

I understand the frequency point on the MtDNA match--it's amazing, however, how much weight the public attributed to that finding locally, that "the FBI confirms that the human remains are that of the victims"! We were careful not to say that at all, but perceptions are what they are.

If you review page 6 of the SA's Motion to Compel Disclosure of potentially Exculpatory Evidence, you will see that he is referring to the FBI's mtDNA test results, as follows:

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences were obtained from the Q1 charred remains and the K1 buccal swab identified as coming from KH, the identified mother of TH. The mtDNA sequences obtained from Q1 and K1 are the same, with the exception of position 320. At this position, the presence of cytosine (C) was observed in the Q1 charred remains. In specimen K1, evidence both a cytosine (C) and a thymine (T) was characterized at position 320.

Due to the closely related sequences obtained from specimens Q1 and K1, TH cannot be excluded as the source of the charred remains.

... and the headlines blaring: "FBI Confirms Remains Those of TH."

As with other DNA evidence, it can only be used to exclude people from crimes, or in this case, exclude remains from belonging to a victim. Which is why, for example, in this ABA article, and while, regarding hair DNA testing, it reiterates this point, as quoted:

FBI officials say that, in cases involving mitochondrial DNA testing conducted by the lab, they always explain the differences between mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA to triers of fact and always make the limitations of mitochondria DNA testing perfectly clear.

"We always say it's maternally inherited and it's not unique to the individual," says Mark Wilson, the FBI's program manager for mitochondrial DNA analysis. "And we always tell them it cannot be used as a means of positive identification."

So, basically, Kratz, actually understanding the aforementioned relevant point, seemed to be quite pleased that the public believed the FBI results were affirmative.

That said, yes, the likelihood the cremains belonged to someone other than TH, is quite low... arguably, and to my mind, negligible. However, I think it is extremely important, since this is a fact based thread (as opposed to the "planted/framed" speculation thread) to avoid overstating facts, especially as they relate to DNA results.

Why? Because DNA is about probabilities, not proof positive. And fully understanding this, imho, goes beyond this case.
 
ALL DNA results anywhere, in any case, in any paternity case or criminal case, around the world, are expressed as a statistical probability. If doubt is being placed on the DNA results of TH in terms of not being high enough in probability to determine the DNA tested in the tibia is TH's DNA, then many (perhaps most) DNA cases should be questioned.

There is no such thing as a DNA match of 100%. No test exists that will provide that probability. The very best probability that can be achieved in any current DNA test that exists is 99.99xxx%. Most DNA cases result in probabilities less than that.

If one insists that only a 100% match is valid then there won't be any DNA evidence that will ever be strong enough to be convincing.

And if one has arrived at that point, one has crossed into the realm of insisting they need to have personally witnessed the crime being committed or else it didn't happen. I've seen folks who are in that mind space (though not in this case, on WS...yet)
 
RIGHT...

THIS is why ( well, I have a few reasons, but ya know )

the BONES/CREMAINS, in light of many plausible scenarios,

make me so furious!!
Has anyone found any pictures of the quarry yet? any pictures of the bones found in the quarry? (human and not human) I just had a quick look again on http://www.stevenaverycase.org/photos/ and I guess there were just none taken. I don't know why I'm surprised at this point lol but was hoping to see what this quarry looked like.
 
Thanks for making that a bit clearer shadowraiths.... I have read a lot of discussion (mostly elsewhere) about the FBI's findings, and how it really doesn't positively ID the remains.

Even if they couldn't get any DNA, I had really thought the likelyhood of it being anyone else was slim, unfortunately.... TH was not the only young lady that died that week (and if you look online for photo's, they even looked similar) And now I hear about this other case where Dr. Eisenberg mistakenly (maybe?) ID'd burned remains as fetal remains with "some" adult bones. (I have looked and can't really find much more on this case)

So now it's hard not to look at the testing and wonder about it all.

Kratz was more than happy to just "go with it" as far as the media reporting Pagel saying the FBI positively ID'd the remains.

Hey Missy, I might be able to help you with the Eisenberg issue. Pregnant woman was assumed dead. Eisenberg searched a burn pit in December 2005 at a house owned by the pregnant woman's mother-in-law. Eisenberg found fetal bones and suggested LE consider mechanism by which the fetus was removed from the mother and burned separately. In April 2006 the woman's body was found with the fetus still in her body. Eisenberg identified normal fire debris as bones.

I mention the proximity of this case with SA's because within a month of identifying bones in one pit she misidentified bones in another.
 
Hey Missy, I might be able to help you with the Eisenberg issue. Pregnant woman was assumed dead. Eisenberg searched a burn pit in December 2005 at a house owned by the pregnant woman's mother-in-law. Eisenberg found fetal bones and suggested LE consider mechanism by which the fetus was removed from the mother and burned separately. In April 2006 the woman's body was found with the fetus still in her body. Eisenberg identified normal fire debris as bones.

I mention the proximity of this case with SA's because within a month of identifying bones in one pit she misidentified bones in another.

thanks :) I did find the story or article online. What I am confused about is.... in the article it stated that fetal bones were found among adult one's. I get that she was wrong about the fetal bones, but were there adult bones still? Or was she wrong about that too?

here is what I read that confused me:

Court documents show Dr. Leslie Eisenberg of the State Crime Lab in Madison wrote investigators asking them to consider the mechanisms by which the fetal remains, yet very few adult remains, made their way to the burn pile, and says it’s possible the fetus was deliberately removed and burned independently of the majority of the adult remains

from https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...e-bone-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/ which links this: http://cwbradio.com/news/?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_id=933

Anyway.... just seemed strange if there were adult bones there, who's were they? because they later found her body (with fetus).
 
thanks :) I did find the story or article online. What I am confused about is.... in the article it stated that fetal bones were found among adult one's. I get that she was wrong about the fetal bones, but were there adult bones still? Or was she wrong about that too?

here is what I read that confused me:

Court documents show Dr. Leslie Eisenberg of the State Crime Lab in Madison wrote investigators asking them to consider the mechanisms by which the fetal remains, yet very few adult remains, made their way to the burn pile, and says it’s possible the fetus was deliberately removed and burned independently of the majority of the adult remains

from https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...e-bone-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/ which links this: http://cwbradio.com/news/?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_id=933

Anyway.... just seemed strange if there were adult bones there, who's were they? because they later found her body (with fetus).

I would assume she was wrong about both. The pregnant woman was found with all her parts and the fetus was still inside her. The guy has not be linked to any other murders or missing people. She simply screwed up.
 
Ok.... read something interesting "elsewhere" and did a bit of looking... so I'm a bit confused LOL

Page 13 of http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf
search warrant page 13 bone.PNG

IIRC Eisenberg was out of town and returned on November 10th and she had the bones on her desk that morning. Because she was not around, they sent some bone fragments to Ken Bennett to see if they were human or not. According to this search warrant.... he was able to make his determination based on the characteristics of the ilium bone.....

Here is where I am confused.... the ilium bone is part of the pelvic bones.... isn't this what was found in the quarry? I don't recall hearing about any other pelvic bones. Checking on Eisenbergs testimony, doing a "find" and ilium does not come up at all. Iliac crest... sacroiliac

When were the bones in the quarry found?

I guess I have a few questions about this statement and Ken Bennett.... first, why is the bone being stated as being an adult human female when Dr. Eisenberg wouldn't even definitively say it was human.... second, why is it saying it was found in the burn pit if it was found at the quarry? The second question is somewhat rhetorical LOL I know why they would do that... ;-)
 
When were the bones in the quarry found?

See red pin, upper right corner, in the below map, per GPS coordinates given during Timothy Austin's testimony (Day 3, p154).

DeerCamp_zpsahrig0ix.png

Notably, testing of the bones found in Radant Quarry were inconclusive (Day 1, p142).
 
I still can't find the "when" they were found. I have now done a search in the documents for Radandt quarry, and found in Peyvtoe's testimony....

page 64/65 Day 18

Q. Is that a site you went to?
23 A. At one time on Thursday, maybe on Friday, I went
24 to multiple sites, not to examine them, but to
25 check on the welfare of my fellow agents who were
1 doing those sites. So I didn't participate in
2 those areas, but it's possible I may have stopped
3 and asked if they needed some water, or
4 assistance, or special tools to complete their
5 job.

so that would be the 11th/12th. I will have to do some more digging when I get home tonight, but if those bones were taken from the quarry to Bennett, they misrepresented that in the search warrant. IMO Still looking though... LOL
 
lol, cannot believe I quoted that and still saw "where"

I read it this morning... and went back to my own post because I thought maybe I posted wrong because I was tired haha No biggie :) and I have never seen that pic before, so all good :)

After a cup of coffee or 5... I might go back looking to see if I can find what date those "not conclusive human pelvic bones" were found in the quarry!
 
I haven't read any theories that might include a wood chipper. I can't imagine him tapping away with a claw or ball peen hammer to get her bones in such small pieces. The transcript does not hint as to how the condition actually came to be. Were there ever any cut marks noted?

There was a case in (i think) Connecticut where a husband froze his wife and ran her through the wood chipper into a river bank/river.
 
DNA testing on one of the bones that had some tissue was done in TH's case. And that didn't involve Eisenberg.

oh no! Did Sherry Culhane do the DNA testing on the bone tissue? If so, the results are certainly questionable.
 
oh no! Did Sherry Culhane do the DNA testing on the bone tissue? If so, the results are certainly questionable.

Hi Inana!

I know Missy looked at those quite extensively--I can't remember who did the bone testing. You should be able to find it at stevenaverycase.org
 

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