Bones

[Justiceseeker35]

I have questions-
What do we know about the 3rd bone site- the gravel quarry?
Was this a place on the Avery property or another company's property? Did this place show evidence that there had been a fire here? There was two bones found here, were they ID'd as TH? Could this possibly be where AC found her car and called in her plates on nov 3rd? Possibly found her body here or her charred bones?

 

[missy1974]

It is not owned by the Avery's. I am not sure if it showed evidence of a fire, no pictures have been released, not sure if any were taken. According to the anthropologist, she suspected the fragments were human pelvic bone. The conclusion is that they belong to TH, but not 100% confirmed (the likelihood of them being someone else is pretty low). There were animal bones found there as well.... still no idea if they were burned there or not.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

View attachment 88350

It is not owned by the Avery's. I am not sure if it showed evidence of a fire, no pictures have been released, not sure if any were taken. According to the anthropologist, she suspected the fragments were human pelvic bone. The conclusion is that they belong to TH, but not 100% confirmed (the likelihood of them being someone else is pretty low). There were animal bones found there as well.... still no idea if they were burned there or not.

How would they know to even look there? If the they weren't on the Avery property and didn't have search warrants how could they find the fragments there?

 

[missy1974]

How would they know to even look there? If the they weren't on the Avery property and didn't have search warrants how could they find the fragments there?

I *think* but I am not sure.... there is a bunch of quarries around there... some abandoned, some not. They were searching them all. I am not sure of the circumstances of how they were found, or who found them.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

How would they know to even look there? If the they weren't on the Avery property and didn't have search warrants how could they find the fragments there?

I *think* but I am not sure.... there is a bunch of quarries around there... some abandoned, some not. They were searching them all. I am not sure of the circumstances of how they were found, or who found them.

Maybe this has been mentioned but could it be possible (if one is entertaining the framing possibility) that LE got a call about something going on around the area of the quarry and that's when they found the first crime scene and it went from there? If the quarry had some animal remains maybe it was a used location for that & a few locals already knew that but noticed something different happening around the time Theresa went missing? Or it's also plausible dogs lead them there afterwards. You always say it Missy but it's a shame we don't have more info about the area and discovery.

 

[Amber29]

I thought the quarry was searched after BDs interviews.

 

[bodester413]

I think someone was using that rubber mallet and shovel that were photographed behind SA's trailer in or near the burn pit to dig through the burn pit and smash pieces of bone into dust or much smaller pieces. Less noise with the rubber mallet. It sounded like the pit had smaller bone fragments than the barrels....I think I remember reading that. I wish they had taken more photos of that too and let the coroner come in. The reason they gave her for not letting her come in didn't make much sense when you consider who else they let work on the case.

 

[MysticJynx]

I think someone was using that rubber mallet and shovel that were photographed behind SA's trailer in or near the burn pit to dig through the burn pit and smash pieces of bone into dust or much smaller pieces. Less noise with the rubber mallet. It sounded like the pit had smaller bone fragments than the barrels....I think I remember reading that. I wish they had taken more photos of that too and let the coroner come in. The reason they gave her for not letting her come in didn't make much sense when you consider who else they let work on the case.

What do you think about the being told that the bones were in the debris and the debris were not even in the pit? Also what is your opinion of the screwdriver under the supposed tire belts she was burned in. The screwdriver unscathed by the fire. The bone that was 8 feet south? the bones in the quarry and the barrel that was on another persons property? All the dried leaves in the area too. It just seems like the stuff they photographed was the stuff they did good at planting. The blood the key. But when they dumped those bones from the quarry into his burn pit late at night they aimed for the debris, think that would make sense she be tangled in with that. When they actually found out that the stuff was not in the burn pit they deviated from procedure. Less likely for the jury to find reasonable doubt. They knew that all their planted evidence wasnt adding up but who better to cover up that crime then the departments doing the planting. This of course is all my opinion. Also find it strange that they waited so long to look at that burn pit and remove the dog, when the initial search warrant was only for 48 hours. The aggressive dog I have seen in pictures was either standing there sticking out his tongue, or laying down. I don't even see pictures of this so called aggressive dog. The dog that BJ also tried to pick up early on in the week. The 5th or 6th of November 2005. Seems the states theory and planted evidence was so full of holes that to prove this mans guilt they deviated from several procedures and protocols.

And what was it Gahn said about deviations and protocols in the news conference about the contaminated bullet fragment, the bullet the defense was not allowed to witness the testing, but a group of students did. He said...
"If you want to be rigid, and say that protocol is the protocol and you can never deviate from this whatsoever, I don't think most people believe thats how life operates. THAT SOMETIMES YOU DO HAVE TO DEVIATE JUST TO MAKE SENSE."

And in this case to make sense of it all they deviated from more than just one protocol. And when you are asking a jury to put a man in prison for life that those deviations from protocol should not be used. They needed to deviate to make sense, to give the jury the deviated truth of what really happened to TH, so they could get a guilty verdict, not the truth. JMO

 

[missy1974]

I find it strange that the cadaver dog hit on the 2 barrel's on November 5th, and they didn't investigate right away? This was apparently after he hit on the RAV4, so it would make sense to investigate if he hit on the barrel's.... oh wait... I said "would make sense" ... nevermind.

I would also like to know if any of the garbage/debris left in the barrel was similar to the garbage/debris in the burn pit. How far down in the barrel were the bone's found?

 

[Sinsaint]

I find it strange that the cadaver dog hit on the 2 barrel's on November 5th, and they didn't investigate right away? This was apparently after he hit on the RAV4, so it would make sense to investigate if he hit on the barrel's.... oh wait... I said "would make sense" ... nevermind.

I would also like to know if any of the garbage/debris left in the barrel was similar to the garbage/debris in the burn pit. How far down in the barrel were the bone's found?

Wait a minute... The dog hit on the RAV4?

 

[missy1974]

Wait a minute... The dog hit on the RAV4?

yep, November 5th, when the vehicle was still in the Avery yard, under the tarp.

 

[Madeleine74]

"Brutus," was the first "police officer" to approach the Rav4 after Pam Sturm called it in. Brutus is a canine, he is trained to detect the scent of a cadaver and alert if he detects the scent. Brutus 'hit' on the Rav4, which was the first indication that TH or someone in TH's SUV was dead while in the SUV at some point.

 

[Sinsaint]

What do you think about the being told that the bones were in the debris and the debris were not even in the pit? Also what is your opinion of the screwdriver under the supposed tire belts she was burned in. The screwdriver unscathed by the fire. The bone that was 8 feet south? the bones in the quarry and the barrel that was on another persons property? All the dried leaves in the area too. It just seems like the stuff they photographed was the stuff they did good at planting. The blood the key. But when they dumped those bones from the quarry into his burn pit late at night they aimed for the debris, think that would make sense she be tangled in with that. When they actually found out that the stuff was not in the burn pit they deviated from procedure. Less likely for the jury to find reasonable doubt. They knew that all their planted evidence wasnt adding up but who better to cover up that crime then the departments doing the planting. This of course is all my opinion. Also find it strange that they waited so long to look at that burn pit and remove the dog, when the initial search warrant was only for 48 hours. The aggressive dog I have seen in pictures was either standing there sticking out his tongue, or laying down. I don't even see pictures of this so called aggressive dog. The dog that BJ also tried to pick up early on in the week. The 5th or 6th of November 2005. Seems the states theory and planted evidence was so full of holes that to prove this mans guilt they deviated from several procedures and protocols.

And what was it Gahn said about deviations and protocols in the news conference about the contaminated bullet fragment, the bullet the defense was not allowed to witness the testing, but a group of students did. He said...
"If you want to be rigid, and say that protocol is the protocol and you can never deviate from this whatsoever, I don't think most people believe thats how life operates. THAT SOMETIMES YOU DO HAVE TO DEVIATE JUST TO MAKE SENSE."

And in this case to make sense of it all they deviated from more than just one protocol. And when you are asking a jury to put a man in prison for life that those deviations from protocol should not be used. They needed to deviate to make sense, to give the jury the deviated truth of what really happened to TH, so they could get a guilty verdict, not the truth. JMO

I've been looking at the pictures that are available (burn pit and yard) along with testimony the bones were "intertwined" with the metal. First, whether a body is burned under tires or above them, the bones will not simply disintegrate and melt through the steel tire belts. Assuming the body was above the tires as gravity would dictate it would need to be in order for the broken bones to then fall down through, and get caught in the belts, as it's being broken up the belts themselves should show signs of damage. They wouldn't be perfectly cylindrical. They would be bent and/or shows signs of being hit with something. You can't use enough force to smash bones without mangling those wires as well.

Second, all the pictures of Avery's yard look raked (or absent of any blowing leaves). The pictures of the burn pit and area with the burned seat and at least one steel tire belt all include leaves. The odd thing is that the leaves are both under and, in some cases, over steel belts and the burned seat. The leaves couldn't have been under these items during the burning otherwise they would have been burned as well. Overtop could work as Avery could have dumped leaves over it later but that doesn't explain how they got under the burned items. I mentioned the lack of leaves in Avery's yard only to point out it's not likely leaves blew into the burn pit during the search. But nothing attributes for the fact these metal items were over leaves.

 

[Sinsaint]

yep, November 5th, when the vehicle was still in the Avery yard, under the tarp.

That's not possible according to Dassey. She was still alive when she was placed in the truck. Her body would not have been secreting the decomposition chemicals required for a dog to detect at that point. If the dog "hit" on the RAV4 it's because her body was in there after death and most likely at least thirty minutes or more after death.

 

[MysticJynx]

yep, November 5th, when the vehicle was still in the Avery yard, under the tarp.

I wonder how long that rav4 was under the tarp. it was said they called that Ertl about it and he told them to tarp it, but when he got there the vehicle was no longer under the tarps. IIRC

 

[missy1974]

That's not possible according to Dassey. She was still alive when she was placed in the truck. Her body would not have been secreting the decomposition chemicals required for a dog to detect at that point. If the dog "hit" on the RAV4 it's because her body was in there after death and most likely at least thirty minutes or more after death.

There was testimony that the dog would hit on blood, or bodily fluids as well.

I still want to know why they didn't investigate the barrel's on the 5th, would also like to know which officers were with the handler and who recorded these hits and where did that info go?

 

[Sinsaint]

There was testimony that the dog would hit on blood, or bodily fluids as well.

I still want to know why they didn't investigate the barrel's on the 5th, would also like to know which officers were with the handler and who recorded these hits and where did that info go?

Hmmm... What kind of dog is this? What is his training? Accuracy rating? Dog aren't trained to just "hit" on whatever... Decomposition, blood, urine, sweat, perfume, etc. Dogs that are trained in search and rescue are trained to detect and "hit" on living scent only. "Death dogs" or recovery dogs are trained to only respond to decomposition. Not blood, not sweat, not perfume. Only decomposition. If their dog is "hitting" on everything live or dead, he hasn't been trained properly and is about as useful as my Border Collie.

 

[Sinsaint]

Hmmm... What kind of dog is this? What is his training? Accuracy rating? Dog aren't trained to just "hit" on whatever... Decomposition, blood, urine, sweat, perfume, etc. Dogs that are trained in search and rescue are trained to detect and "hit" on living scent only. "Death dogs" or recovery dogs are trained to only respond to decomposition. Not blood, not sweat, not perfume. Only decomposition. If their dog is "hitting" on everything live or dead, he hasn't been trained properly and is about as useful as my Border Collie.

I should clarify. I'm not trying to be rude or *****y. LE has many types of dogs they employ. When it comes to a missing person two separate dogs can/will be used. One is a "search and rescue" dog. These dogs are trained to go to the last location the missing person was seen. Clothing is usually used so the dog can smell the person they need to track. These dogs are trained to ignore all other smells other than the sample object they use as their primary scent source.

"Death dogs" are trained differently. They train to only hit on decomposition, or death. Not blood, sweat, urine, etc. Only decomposition. These dogs are highly trained working only with a synthetic decomposition liquid, dead pigs or actual dead bodies. They ONLY "hit" on decomposition. If the dog is "hitting" on things other than decomposition, it's not a well trained dog in it's field.

 

[missy1974]

I understand what you are saying Sinsaint ;-)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9dpNu3jLO3tdUstOHdRLUtaVjg/view
Julie Cramer, first witness on day 5.

In cross exam, it was brought up about blood, bodily fluids, because the dog barked in the bathroom in the trailer.... Strang (I think) pointed out... urine/blood would make the dog react, she agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong after you read the testimony, but that is what I understood after reading it

 

[bodester413]

What do you think about the being told that the bones were in the debris and the debris were not even in the pit? Also what is your opinion of the screwdriver under the supposed tire belts she was burned in. The screwdriver unscathed by the fire. The bone that was 8 feet south? the bones in the quarry and the barrel that was on another persons property? All the dried leaves in the area too. It just seems like the stuff they photographed was the stuff they did good at planting. The blood the key. But when they dumped those bones from the quarry into his burn pit late at night they aimed for the debris, think that would make sense she be tangled in with that. When they actually found out that the stuff was not in the burn pit they deviated from procedure. Less likely for the jury to find reasonable doubt. They knew that all their planted evidence wasnt adding up but who better to cover up that crime then the departments doing the planting. This of course is all my opinion. Also find it strange that they waited so long to look at that burn pit and remove the dog, when the initial search warrant was only for 48 hours. The aggressive dog I have seen in pictures was either standing there sticking out his tongue, or laying down. I don't even see pictures of this so called aggressive dog. The dog that BJ also tried to pick up early on in the week. The 5th or 6th of November 2005. Seems the states theory and planted evidence was so full of holes that to prove this mans guilt they deviated from several procedures and protocols.

And what was it Gahn said about deviations and protocols in the news conference about the contaminated bullet fragment, the bullet the defense was not allowed to witness the testing, but a group of students did. He said...
"If you want to be rigid, and say that protocol is the protocol and you can never deviate from this whatsoever, I don't think most people believe thats how life operates. THAT SOMETIMES YOU DO HAVE TO DEVIATE JUST TO MAKE SENSE."

And in this case to make sense of it all they deviated from more than just one protocol. And when you are asking a jury to put a man in prison for life that those deviations from protocol should not be used. They needed to deviate to make sense, to give the jury the deviated truth of what really happened to TH, so they could get a guilty verdict, not the truth. JMO

It's definitely weird that the bones were in the debris which was not even in the pit. Like many other things in this once you think about it for awhile you can see it both ways. It was planted like that or someone removed it from the pit so they could go through it and removed bone fragments.

I thought the screw driver appeared to have been used to dig through the fire, and the wire from the burned tires. Again it could also have been deliberately placed there to make it appear it was being used to poke around in the wire.

My first thought on the leaves was those sure look like someone gathered them up and put them where they are shown in the photo. It makes sense the wire and the burned bench seat would collect blowing leaves, but it also seems like there would be more leaves around the pit too if the window blew them there.

That bullet from the garage that was tested without having someone from the defense present made me so mad. Then you find out the person testing it was also training lab workers and that's probably why it was contaminated. It made no sense at all. It was hard to read that and not come away thinking ok, this was deliberate.

I agree with you on the dog and taking so long to even examine that area. That was another thing that made me want to scream when I read it.

I don't know how anyone could come away from this not thinking there's something very fishy about how a lot of this was handled. Whether or not they believe Steven Avery did this or didn't do it. Like you said they deviated from protocol on so many things to make things fit their theory on what really happened.