Bosma Murder Trial 04.07.16 - Day 32

[Inspector_North]

Interesting tidbit. Kowalski is also the(drug addicted) driver in the movie Vanishing Point. DM seemed to have a few people who did various driving tasks for him and when I saw the name Kowalski the Vanishing Point connection was my first thought rather than the Penguins of Madagascar.

Wow! A blast from the past! Wolfman Jack!

My mistake, it was Super Soul the DJ. Been a very long long time since I watched it.

 

[musicaljoke]

During testimony today, I had to not cry FOR him and I am a friend of the Bosma's. I truly feel that his animosity towards DM and MS is shown by his willingness to be so vulnerable on the stand, telling the emotional truth and showing his family as well, that he made many epic mistakes. I actually can't imagine what he loves with every day and am not shocked he couldn't look to anyone in court that would truly make him emotionally fold.

I wonder how many of the sordid crew are motivated to continue lying in court, not so much out of devotion to DM and MS, but because they are genuinely afraid that someone was coming after them if they spoke the truth in court. If so, and I believe there may be good reason for them to be fearful, then this young man showed a measure of courage.

 

[hellkat2]

De-lurking to say, "Sweet prince", "What's the situation crustacean?" ? His involvement in this aside, does anybody else think MH is just a really sweet, goofy kid who got mixed up in the waaay wrong crowd? I feel sorry for the guy, especially given his emotional reaction on the stand.

No I don't think MS is what you say. I think...you can't cheat an honest man. IMO these birds of a feather flocked together.

 

[Inspector_North]

I wonder how many of the sordid crew are motivated to continue lying in court, not so much out of devotion to DM and MS, but because they are genuinely afraid that someone was coming after them if they spoke the truth in court. If so, and I believe there may be good reason for them to be fearful, then this young man showed a measure of courage.

I get the impression that they are lying only to minimize their involvement with DM activities. I am going to give them undeserved credit. They believe playing dumb is that way to minimize lying.

 

[hellkat2]

I get the impression that they are lying only to minimize their involvement with DM activities. I am going to give them undeserved credit. They believe playing dumb is that way to minimize lying.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. quote by edmund burke. IMO this applies to lawyers too.

 

[Ontario Mom]

During testimony today, I had to not cry FOR him and I am a friend of the Bosma's. I truly feel that his animosity towards DM and MS is shown by his willingness to be so vulnerable on the stand, telling the emotional truth and showing his family as well, that he made many epic mistakes. I actually can't imagine what he loves with every day and am not shocked he couldn't look to anyone in court that would truly make him emotionally fold.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on his testimony today. I know mine isn't the popular opinion and that's okay but I have to give this young man credit. I know it's real tempting to assume everyone ever associated with DM is just like him, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. Yes he did stupid, irresponsible and illegal things but that was then, and this is now.

moo

 

[swedie]

I'm about halfway through reading on today's thread, sorry if this has come up today. Speaking of the Bobcats, IIRC it was Arnie who discovered there was another Bobcat in DM's possession. Wonder if this one was stolen also and will be brought out during testimony. One sitting in the yard at Maplegate and then the one taken from the farmland.

BD and MH were well advised by their lawyers about what to say and what not to say. Obviously they don't want to implicate themselves, and we see a lot of untruths and being evasive. In the beginning they were trying to cover DM's hiney, but then realized their illegal actions were going to be realized and they needed cover their own hineys. On the stand it seems they still have that reservation about remaining loyal to DM. I don't believe MH is being truthful about what DM said to him when he dropped the toolbox off, or that MH didn't know what was in the toolbox, that he didn't know anything about DM's involvement of TB's truck theft until DM was arrested, he never saw DM with a gun in his house (we've seen photos of a gun in DM's house and a photo of a jar of pellets on a table), and I'm doubting the whole "we didn't see each other or keep in close contact much" line. MH said he never imagined DM would do something like what he's accused of. These guys are pretty transparent and no doubt the jurors are seeing right through them.

MH won't admit to receiving money from DM because that would be making money off the proceeds of crime would it not? It's bad enough that he was involved in thefts over $5000, but perhaps the penalty is stiffer if you're making money off the process. Regardless, I hope there is a penalty to pay for being willing and active participants in these thefts. This is just a tip of the iceberg on what bad business these goons were up to. ALL MOO.

I'm banking on MM to blow this case wide open with truths and clarity. She's going to provide many missing pieces. Again JMO.

Another property that police searched over the weekend — a ranch-style house on Maple Gate Court in Etobicoke, co-owned by Millard and his now-deceased father, a former pilot — was quiet Monday.

Aside from a few house lights flicked on, there were no signs of activity at Millard's childhood home. A Bobcat sat in weeds in the back yard.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...et_up_at_millard_farm_in_waterloo_region.html

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 7h7 hours ago
"You were the lookout, right? He gave you 100 bucks?" Sachak says. Hagerman says he doesn't know if money was ever exchanged.

 

[iknowhim2]

I wonder how many of the sordid crew are motivated to continue lying in court, not so much out of devotion to DM and MS, but because they are genuinely afraid that someone was coming after them if they spoke the truth in court. If so, and I believe there may be good reason for them to be fearful, then this young man showed a measure of courage.

I think A lot of us close to the case feel this way. I think he will have to fear for his life forever.

 

[hellkat2]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on his testimony today. I know mine isn't the popular opinion and that's okay but I have to give this young man credit. I know it's real tempting to assume everyone ever associated with DM is just like him, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. Yes he did stupid, irresponsible and illegal things but that was then, and this is now.

moo

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. quote by edmund burke

 

[Abitcountry]

"Inside the toolbox, there were different narcotics in the toolbox," Hagerman says -- not the pot that was in Michalski's backpack.
by Adam Carter 2:22 PM

Hagerman says repeatedly it "never crossed his mind" that there was anything other than drugs in the toolbox. "Sir, that's just nonsense and you know that's nonsense." Dungey says. "I know now that there was something different in there," Hagerman says.
by Adam Carter 2:24 PM

"I just thought he wanted these small incriminating things out of his house," Hagerman says.
by Adam Carter 2:25 PM

So I'm thinking , if this was Los Angeles,California and the defense was Johnnie Cochrane of OJ Simpson fame...there would have been two new toolboxes in court today......One containing an PPK wrapped in a hoodie ....and One full of party drugs. Hagerman would have been asked which one best fit with the one he was given by DM. Don't know if you can do such a comparison in the courts in Canada......but it would have been interesting.
Hard to believe that party drugs would be weighing in at 4-5 as MH claimed.
Hagerman didn't know what the toolbox possibly contained ??? when he has often partied at DM's house and more than likely knew about the gun and had likely seen pics of the PPK---hell, he probably saw the gun in the flesh!
So now he has this toolbox from DM and it is heavy and the dead weight inside shifts from side to side as he takes it down to the fruit cellar and he can't figure it out .......Seems he figured it out right quick after Michalski called. Presto----Hagerman and Michalski talk and we're back to playing "hot potatoe" again. (Hagerman actually said later that Milchalski figured it out !)

I think it was no mistake that DM separated the backpack and the tool box. He had no need for the backpack and the weed---But the toolbox and the gun.....that was insurance for a future frame up against Smich if the need arose.
I think it is a fluke that the gun made it's way back to Smich....and the weed too for that matter. <modsnip>

 

[hellkat2]

I wonder how many of the sordid crew are motivated to continue lying in court, not so much out of devotion to DM and MS, but because they are genuinely afraid that someone was coming after them if they spoke the truth in court. If so, and I believe there may be good reason for them to be fearful, then this young man showed a measure of courage.

The truth is so much easier that keeping track of all the lies. Pathological liars always trip themselves up. IMO ...theoretically speaking.

 

[brightii]

During testimony today, I had to not cry FOR him and I am a friend of the Bosma's. I truly feel that his animosity towards DM and MS is shown by his willingness to be so vulnerable on the stand, telling the emotional truth and showing his family as well, that he made many epic mistakes. I actually can't imagine what he loves with every day and am not shocked he couldn't look to anyone in court that would truly make him emotionally fold.

First allow me to express to you my sincere condolences for your loss of your friend, Tim. As a member of the public, I am merely an observer and while not directly affected by Tim's murder, I do believe the nature of the brutal crime and its randomness has impacted everyone who knows about what happened to Tim because it clearly could have happened to anyone.

I can only imagine the many emotions you and all Tim's friends and family feel and grapple with now, and will forever no doubt, and I feel endless compassion for you all. It is beyond my comprehension how you all cope daily and especially having to endure this painful trial experience on top of the immense grief that is ongoing. ((((HUGS))))

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. It's helpful to hear your perspective. My perspective is that MH, while a sympathetic character, was involved in preventing evidence from reaching LE that could have made a big difference in the outcome of this trial. I agree that MH seems genuinely sorry for his past actions, but I do also get the sense that he is holding back on some of the details. JPC mentioned upthread that MH could have been charged with obstruction, and I agree. He is very fortunate that he too is not currently locked up and I think he now realizes it.

My comments this afternoon were about TD and his cross of MH which, in context of him representing MS's best interests in the trial, seemed to me to be a reasonable attempt on TD's part to show holes in MH's testimony or call him out on lies he had told to LE.

I can only think of this analogy in the moment, but if a husband is unfaithful to his wife and when caught expresses remorse, is it truly remorse if his wife feels justifiably angry and doesn't let him off the hook and yet the husband then feels unfairly punished by her anger and lack of forgiveness? IMO, the husband should accept that he broke his wife's heart and robbed her of trust. If he is truly remorseful he would expect that her forgiveness would come on her time-table and not merely because he said he's sorry, IMO. It takes time to believe someone after they admit to letting you down, IMO and in the meantime the perpetrator has to endure the victim's uncomfortable wrath until the victim has the chance to fully express it. I guess it's called taking one's lumps. IMO, one has to believe that remorse is genuine when expressed until finally it can be fully accepted and trust rebuilt.

In context of MH, I think he should expect that he has disappointed himself, his family and LE (initially) and TB's loved ones in this important investigation, and if I am to completely accept that his remorse is authentic, I would find it easier if he showed that he expects to be given a hard time to prove it. He should know that good people might still doubt his words and intentions, and therefore they may be suspicious of his words now in light of his previous actions.

I've probably not explained it all well, but I do hope that helps you and others see where I'm coming from.

Throughout, and until the end of this trial, verdict and sentencing, I am with you, as are we all, hoping for only one thing, to hear the whole truth that will deliver justice for TB, his family, his friends and the wider community.

God bless. You have a special angel watching over you all. :angel:

All MOO

 

[Abitcountry]

interesting........what made him change his mind yesterday????

Maybe be the impact of just being in the courtroom setting did it......Maybe it was seeing his buddies again---don't know if they still have leg irons when they are seated......Maybe seeing the Bosma family just behind his buddies.....Maybe seeing a courtroom full of strangers that troubled themselves to be there just because this trial is so serious......and just Maybe it was a room full of people whose eyes were riveted right on him and he could not hide under the cove of a dark night !!!!!

I think anyone of those might have done the trick....and all of them together in the same place ??? BINGO !

 

[hellkat2]

I wonder how many of the sordid crew are motivated to continue lying in court, not so much out of devotion to DM and MS, but because they are genuinely afraid that someone was coming after them if they spoke the truth in court. If so, and I believe there may be good reason for them to be fearful, then this young man showed a measure of courage.

I wonder why so many of the crew are not in jail right now for obstruction of justice and I was thinking that it is because allowing them to wander around will take the police who have them under surveillance to more incriminating details. I have read that this is something that is done.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm not at all convinced we're ever going to hear the whole truth in this case. I do think, we're going to hear enough of it, pieced together by multiple testimonies and evidence that will shine a pretty bright light on the pieces we don't hear. Unless DM and MS were given some sort of truth serum and both took the stand and confessed to every single horrid detail, it's just not going to happen.

That said, I do very strongly believe we'll all see justice for the Bosma family and those who love them. The evidence thus far (and there's SO much more to come) lends toward me believing that. The defense truly has nothing to work with, aside from TD's impeccable skill of finding a witness's weaknesses and exploiting them. While entertaining for entertainment purposes, it doesn't change the facts or evidence that the Crown is presenting.

moo.

 

[MsSherlock]

I'm with both of you. I feel empathy for him as I believe that he has matured and clearly regrets everything that happened. I think that most of us are also responding to his testimony since he is the first person who has shown any remorse for their wrongdoing. He is lucky that he was not charged with obstruction of justice.

On a completely other note, has anyone watched the movie Longford? I watched it last night. It is about the Moors murderers in the UK and one mans belief in forgiveness and redemption.

I feel for this young man as well- regardless if he lied on numerous occasions to LE before he came clean. IMO, it takes a incredible amount of moral fortitude to say over and over "I lied" "I lied" on the stand, in front of a Judge, Jury, the victims family and gallery of spectators. DM had it all figured out. He had friends who trusted him like friends do - AM, MH & pals. MH and him went back a long time and with MH's grandmother being so involved with the Millard family, I would imagine MH viewed DM as family. DM then desensitized all of his friends to his petty criminal activities. He called the acts a very familiar name "missions", got walkie talkies, kind of put bids out for helpers. He turned it into a game. The crimes got bigger, they all got in deeper and voila! DM's got a pretty loyal following.

And what does DM do? He saddles them to dispose of the illegal items that could incriminate him. It was payback time- only they just didn't know it. He betrays the friendship without one ounce of guilt and exposes himself as the person he really is. A narcissistic psychopath. He was never their friend. He used them.

The day DM was charged with murder was the day DM's friends realized that they were never DM's friend. IMO, it would be very confusing for a young 20 something guy. Just like LB and his Dad were never his friends. MH was pulled into this whole mess by DM's self serving needs. DM had 100 places where he could have put the tool box- why didn't he take it to Shaner or drop it off in his mothers garage? Why did the gun even have to go in the toolbox? My theory is this. MH and AM knew the toolbox. DM used it to transport narcotics and other drugs. DM knew that when he dropped it off to MH, MH would assume it was full of drugs. It was locked. That's the reason why DM put the gun in that tool box: calculating, manipulating, devious. He needed to get all of this stuff thru as many of his friends hands as possible. None of them would be left unscathed and none would dare snitch him out.

So as LE came calling on each of his friends, they lied to cover for themselves and DM. And they continued to lie until they broke under the pressure. MH spoke to his father- retained a lawyer and told LE the truth. And even after that, DM was still trying to get at his friends via CN. IMO, they just couldn't wrap their head around DM ever being responsible for TB's murder- they were looking for every possible explanation. Hopefully, with time, MH can come to terms with everything. I applaud his honesty, regardless if it took a while to come out. He did the right thing and regardless what anyone says, I think it takes a lot of courage and moral fortitude for anyone to sit there in front of DM and tell the truth. SS and the 2 LW's weren't able to do it, yet somehow, with love and respect for their families, these young guys are doing their best to close this chapter in their life. MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Maybe be the impact of just being in the courtroom setting did it......Maybe it was seeing his buddies again---don't know if they still have leg irons when they are seated......Maybe seeing the Bosma family just behind his buddies.....Maybe seeing a courtroom full of strangers that troubled themselves to be there just because this trial is so serious......and just Maybe it was a room full of people whose eyes were riveted right on him and he could not hide under the cove of a dark night !!!!!

I think anyone of those might have done the trick....and all of them together in the same place ??? BINGO !

It is hard to keep track of the lies and he is being painted into a corner inside and outside the courtroom IMO.

 

[jash]

It may be difficult for a witness to express his/her personal feelings about the accused. I have testified in court before, and was coached by the prosecution to only answer the questions posed to me (i.e. don't add in anything extra - if yes/no is sufficient, don't expound). We may have had a better indication of MH's feelings if DM's lawyer didn't shut it down.

Colin Butler &#8207;@ColinButlerCBC 9h9 hours ago
Hagerman is crying after the crown asks "how do you feel about this now?" Which the judge wouldn't allow after Pillay objected. #Bosma

I'd guess his feelings for DM are somewhere between DM's uncle's (palpable animosity) and LW2's (smiling and googly-eyed).

I can't wait for AM to take the stand. IMO he will be more like SS than MH.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I feel for this young man as well- regardless if he lied on numerous occasions to LE before he came clean. IMO, it takes a incredible amount of moral fortitude to say over and over "I lied" "I lied" on the stand, in front of a Judge, Jury, the victims family and gallery of spectators. DM had it all figured out. He had friends who trusted him like friends do - AM, MH & pals. MH and him went back a long time and with MH's grandmother being so involved with the Millard family, I would imagine MH viewed DM as family. DM then desensitized all of his friends to his petty criminal activities. He called the acts a very familiar name "missions", got walkie talkies, kind of put bids out for helpers. He turned it into a game. The crimes got bigger, they all got in deeper and voila! DM's got a pretty loyal following.

And what does DM do? He saddles them to dispose of the illegal items that could incriminate him. It was payback time- only they just didn't know it. He betrays the friendship without one ounce of guilt and exposes himself as the person he really is. A narcissistic psychopath. He was never their friend. He used them.

The day DM was charged with murder was the day DM's friends realized that they were never DM's friend. IMO, it would be very confusing for a young 20 something guy. Just like LB and his Dad were never his friends. MH was pulled into this whole mess by DM's self serving needs. DM had 100 places where he could have put the tool box- why didn't he take it to Shaner or drop it off in his mothers garage? Why did the gun even have to go in the toolbox? My theory is this. MH and AM knew the toolbox. DM used it to transport narcotics and other drugs. DM knew that when he dropped it off to MH, MH would assume it was full of drugs. It was locked. That's the reason why DM put the gun in that tool box: calculating, manipulating, devious. He needed to get all of this stuff thru as many of his friends hands as possible. None of them would be left unscathed and none would dare snitch him out.

So as LE came calling on each of his friends, they lied to cover for themselves and DM. And they continued to lie until they broke under the pressure. MH spoke to his father- retained a lawyer and told LE the truth. And even after that, DM was still trying to get at his friends via CN. IMO, they just couldn't wrap their head around DM ever being responsible for TB's murder- they were looking for every possible explanation. Hopefully, with time, MH can come to terms with everything. I applaud his honesty, regardless if it took a while to come out. He did the right thing and regardless what anyone says, I think it takes a lot of courage and moral fortitude for anyone to sit there in front of DM and tell the truth. SS and the 2 LW's weren't able to do it, yet somehow, with love and respect for their families, these young guys are doing their best to close this chapter in their life. MOO

Clicking "thanks" just wasn't enough. I've been trying to say the same thing and somehow it doesn't feel like it's coming out right. You nailed it though.

 

[Elisabeth]

Susan Clairmont &#8207;@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Items given to them by Millard. "We were both in a panic. I was upset. His thing had been thrown in my lap a couple of days ago."

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Hagerman said he disagreed about going to see Mark. They argued, and eventually agreed to dump it somewhere in Oakville. #Bosma

Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
Michalski said Dellen would've wanted the 'thing' to go to Mark. Hagerman disagreed. Words were heated. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner &#8207;@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
At the park Hagerman learned of #Millard's arrest, & that Michalski had been living with him; cops raided that morn. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont &#8207;@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Wanted to get rid of it. Discussed giving it to Mark Smich. Talk was heated.

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 2m2 minutes ago
He knew Mark to be Mark Smich, Dellen's friend, Hagerman says. #Bosma

Have any of the lawyers asked if MH asked WHY DM wanted it to go to MS? What did AM tell MH? And why MH emphatically didn't want it to go to MS (based on the heated words). Why would MH have had such a strong opinion? MH has said he wanted to get rid of it. But what did he want to do with it?