Bosma Murder Trial 05.12.16 - Day 48

[Errrr]

His credibility went way down with not knowing where the gun was buried. He is covering for someone.

If he sold it to Iisho he wouldn't dare tell.

 

[don_quixote]

Matching it to the shell casing ? Matching it to the pictures ?

Agreed, but it is another feather in MS's cap in helping provide the truth to a trial in which it has been lacking.

Not sure about that.

Well, you are right about the casing and the firing pin indentation. I didn't think about that for some reason. Although, that would bring up a whole bunch of what ifs as well. In the end it doesn't even matter. I wouldn't be surprised if the prosecutors were thinking (privately) "oh no, please don't let the gun emerge"

 

[EspressoBean]

But there was a material change to the situation. IMO, if he wanted to get on the stand, he still could. Who sets the turns? It's not like they toss a coin when it comes to such serious charges. What if MS was to make the election first? And then DM would get on the stand and say absolutely opposite. That MS was driving and DM thought they are going to Timmie's. I'm not a lawyer but I am 90%+ confident that he'd still be allowed to testify.

The turns are set by who is the first listed, the first to be charged which is DM.
At this point, the Crown and defense for MS are saying that it is not possible for DM to still take the stand.
Pillay may have something up his sleeve in this but it's not so simple as he wants his turn now.

 

[RandomName479]

But there was a material change to the situation. IMO, if he wanted to get on the stand, he still could. Who sets the turns? It's not like they toss a coin when it comes to such serious charges. What if MS was to make the election first? And then DM would get on the stand and say absolutely opposite. That MS was driving and DM thought they are going to Timmie's. I'm not a lawyer but I am 90%+ confident that he'd still be allowed to testify.

I'm terrible at finding links when I need them.....but the reason DM's team goes first (with everything....cross examinations of Crown witnesses, presenting their case, etc) was because DM's name was listed first on the charge (indictment? no clue what the right word is).....it's not a coin toss, but it can't be changed part way through the trial. DM was given his opportunity to testify and declined....I'm not so sure he can change his mind. I would expect some major legal arguments around this......but the Crown and Dungey ABSOLUTELY disagree with you.....MOO

ETA - EB you beat me to the punch....

 

[JuneBug67]

I think something changed between yesterday and this morning. When the judge ended things yesterday, given what happened today, it would have been appropriate for TD to say he could wrap things up in 5 minutes, thus saving the the need to meet today. The judge apologized to the jury this morning for such a short day. It clearly wasn't what either of them were expecting.

Is there any negotiation behind the scenes on charges or outcomes during the trial ? Was MS trying to make a deal with the Crown last night ? Or does that only happen in movies ?

Did TD ask to end proceedings yesterday? If so it may have been because he knew he was going to be stuck with a weak close regarding the gun. Leaving the jury to absorb yesterday's testimony overnight without that may have been a preferable strategy.

 

[don_quixote]

I'm terrible at finding links when I need them.....but the reason DM's team goes first (with everything....cross examinations of Crown witnesses, presenting their case, etc) was because DM's name was listed first on the charge (indictment? no clue what the right word is).....it's not a coin toss, but it can't be changed part way through the trial. DM was given his opportunity to testify and declined....I'm not so sure he can change his mind. I would expect some major legal arguments around this......but the Crown and Dungey ABSOLUTELY disagree with you.....MOO

ETA - EB you beat me to the punch....

Until they clarify, I disagree that they disagree. They do not give the reason why they think it's impossible. May be they are saying it due to some other reasons.

 

[Kamille]

The turns are set by who is the first listed, the first to be charged which is DM.
At this point, the Crown and defense for MS are saying that it is not possible for DM to still take the stand.
Pillay may have something up his sleeve in this but it's not so simple as he wants his turn now.

He might apply for it if his client truly wants to take the stand (and after watching what MS is about to go through will he want to?) but since MS via TD did not really provide any new evidence, IMO he would probably be denied.

I think we've got a media legal analyst who was originally retained by DM for the WM trial after he weighed in on this trial on television (not sure if he is still the attorney on record for that case) who has started a whole legal debate about whether or not DM can testify now if he wants to. And I think it's just a lot of bluster by an attorney who may have a personal interest in the outcome of this case.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

If he sold it to Iisho he wouldn't dare tell.

Or just got word to him on where to pick it up.

MOO

 

[Claroon]

I read an article of how to tell someone is lying. One thing the article said was they will use "I did not" instead of "I didn't" especially before a point they want you to believe. I know the tweets aren't verbatim, but I looked through to see if MS did that. Tweets had " I did not kill Mr. Bosma" and "I did not know he had a gun" Just my opinion.

 

[MsSherlock]

As you know I'm not averse to wild thoughts. lol I had actually wondered the exact same thing! TD has presented a stellar defence for MS up to this point, IMO.

All MOO.

I'm thinking that the issue was around MS saying that he believed the gun was the one DM used to kill TB with- that's when the curtain came down and they went into legal arguments for the rest of the day. IMHO, P & S could argue that what MS was allowed to say on the stand was extremely prejudicial to DM and now DM doesn't have an opportunity to defend himself. Maybe we'll end up seeing DM on the stand after all? MOO

 

[Errrr]

The holes in his story are intentional, IMO. Enough to cause doubt on a potential murder 1 conviction. He will definitely be pulled to pieces under cross. I still maintain that DM was the shooter and mastermind (I use that term loosely) but MS was just as complicit since he did nothing but go along with DM.

I agree with you. I thought MS was going to go the whole way and admit the truth but it appears he's trying for reasonable doubt to get him off first degree. Lucky for him I'm not on that jury.
I still think his friend was right and MS owned a gun and so did DM. I do believe from the malingering shown by MS and fear of this last mission shown by his girlfriend, that MS knew they were planning murder but that he was hoping it wouldn't happen. I think his is a poser and does not have the stomach for real murder. All his testimony was to show for the jury how he is respectful now and turning his life around. As well, he is trying to remove himself from any of the planning, anything involving guns, any incineration activity and any cleanup. I don't think a judge would buy his excuses either.

 

[Kamille]

I think something changed between yesterday and this morning. When the judge ended things yesterday, given what happened today, it would have been appropriate for TD to say he could wrap things up in 5 minutes, thus saving the the need to meet today. The judge apologized to the jury this morning for such a short day. It clearly wasn't what either of them were expecting.

Is there any negotiation behind the scenes on charges or outcomes during the trial ? Was MS trying to make a deal with the Crown last night ? Or does that only happen in movies ?

I'm at a loss at to why the day had to end. Why would the judge not have just told RP to start his cross? Why are these "seasoned and professional" attorneys getting all this "legal arguments and prep time" prior to starting their cross exams?

:waitasec:

MOO

 

[don_quixote]

I read an article of how to tell someone is lying. One thing the article said was they will use "I did not" instead of "I didn't" especially before a point they want you to believe. I know the tweets aren't verbatim, but I looked through to see if MS did that. Tweets had " I did not kill Mr. Bosma" and "I did not know he had a gun" Just my opinion.

LOL. I bet QE doesn't use contractions too much. Is that indicative?

 

[EspressoBean]

I read an article of how to tell someone is lying. One thing the article said was they will use "I did not" instead of "I didn't" especially before a point they want you to believe. I know the tweets aren't verbatim, but I looked through to see if MS did that. Tweets had " I did not kill Mr. Bosma" and "I did not know he had a gun" Just my opinion.

Those general tools to consider if someone is telling the truth apply in reference to having a conversation with someone and could even be some indication if this was a first statement to police. On trial, in a court, the words someone chooses are both planned and you speak more formally in that setting which would be without contractions. moo

 

[RandomName479]

I'm thinking that the issue was around MS saying that he believed the gun was the one DM used to kill TB with- that's when the curtain came down and they went into legal arguments for the rest of the day. IMHO, P & S could argue that what MS was allowed to say on the stand was extremely prejudicial to DM and now DM doesn't have an opportunity to defend himself. Maybe we'll end up seeing DM on the stand after all? MOO

Not disagreeing that we may see DM on the stand, but wasn't it just TODAY that MS made the statement about the gun he received in the toolbox being the one that DM used to kill TB? I may have completely missed that part of the testimony yesterday..... I wish there was an easy way to search this stuff....MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Hadn't thought of that......legal people may need to weigh in here....I have never followed a trial so closely and I'm not sure what protocol is.....having 2 defendants complicates matters too....

That being said, even the legal people don't agree on certain aspects of how this case will progress....ie: DM testifying......will be interesting to see how that develops......MOO

ETA - maybe someone with tweeting capability could ask SC this (I don't do twitter).....she is usually really good about answering questions......

Well I tweeted this:

@susanclairmont Thanks for clearing that up. @PeterAkmanCTV tweeted Peter Bouchy, Millard's lawyer in Wayne Millard case, said it could be

SC retweeted it under this:

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 49m49 minutes ago
Crown and Dungey say it's impossible.

I understand it as he no longer has that option because he declined to present any evidence or testify when it was his turn. Not that his testimony won't do him any good (although I don't believe it could.....) MOO


ETA - if you check out SC's twitter she explains to a question about why Crown/Dungey say DM won't be allowed to testify (I know I can't post it here....but it's specific and cites a case)

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 7m7 minutes ago

I guess we'll see. Not sure any "unexpected" evidence came from Smich's testimony. That's the test. #Bosma

The guy that tweeted that is a law student currently articling. the case was Case is R. v. Karim 2010 ABCA 401.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2010/2010abca401/2010abca401.html

 

[EspressoBean]

I'm at a loss at to why the day had to end. Why would the judge not have just told RP to start his cross? Why are these "seasoned and professional" attorneys getting all this "legal arguments and prep time" prior to starting their cross exams?

:waitasec:

MOO

These legal arguments are very important to ensure a fair trial and prevent a mistrial.
The judge makes decisions about what can be questioned and brought up. With two accused in this trial, there are going to be so many more challenges and objections and there needs to be adequate time given to address these and not rush through it. There was no pre-trial so there are going to be things that need to be addressed during the trial that might have usually been done during a pre-trial- where so much more time is given for legal arguments and prep. jmo

 

[Errrr]

Not surprisingly, Dungey is very careful with his questioning following the murder, and MS is quite vague in his answers. No idea where the gun is? Really? Talk about full of ****. I am surprised Dungey even asked the question, knowing the answer. It just makes Smich seem like a liar, IMO.

On another note, if, as MS says, they were only scoping out a truck and would steal in later, one would assume they were also just "scoping" when the went out with Igor, in broad daylight, the day before. Why then, as Igor testified, did DM turn to MS following the Israeli army comment, and "you don't want to know what I did." If they were only scoping out the truck, why would he do that, as if to say "No way we are doing this?" Why not just finish the test drive, and agree later that it wasn't a truck they wanted?

Was it because they were planning to overpower Igor and when that comment was made, DM and MS decided that wasn't such a good idea because they were going to get their asses whipped? Why would DM have to turn around at all?

MOO

Yep, I still believe TM was overpowered from the back seat. How else could he let DM drive him almost to Paris?
So how does MS identify a little gun going into a sachel in the dark to the one in the photograph taken inside the gigantic white vehicle? It also sounds like his shoulder injury didn't become bad enough to see a doctor till after the shooting? What motive does his friend have to lie about everything he said about his and DMs guns?

 

[brightii]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...-can-t-remember-where-he-buried-gun-1.3578641

MS's testimony today about receiving the gun unexpectedly from AM and MH which caused him to worry that DM was framing him may have more impact on the jury than MS not being able to remember where he hid it, IMO. DM in his letters did seem to want MS framed, IMO.

I can't wait for closing arguments from both defence teams and the finale from the Crown. IMO the Crown will have the last word and I am hoping they will make it memorable and persuasive. I don't know about all of you, but I'd like to arrive at a point where all reasonable doubt is removed about the guilt of both accused. In the meantime, I think I'll take break for a while because the discussions actually make me get more confused. So many of you seem certain about MS or DM being guilty, but I waffle back and forth about MS. I wouldn't want to convict him, but I wouldn't want him set free - that's quite the dilemma, IMO.

It's time for clarity and a conclusion, IMO and I think the Crown's closing address will provide it, IMO. Whatever justice looks like after the verdicts, I will be glad to finally see it! I'm sure the Bosma's are anxious to have this trial over with and once they finally get justice for Tim, hopefully they can begin a happier and more hopeful chapter in the lives.

All MOO.

 

[MsSherlock]

So based on the evidence so far, if anyone was sitting on the Jury and only knew what the Jury has been allowed to hear, would you be able to find DM and MS guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" of 1st degree murder? JFMOC (Just for my own curiosity!)