Bosma Murder Trial 06.10.16 - Day 59 - Charge to jury

[mimimic]

Well, couldn't the jury reasonably conclude, without being directed by the Crown, from all the evidence, that once Tim was in the truck, he was forcibly confined? That DM and/or MS were never going to give Tim the option to leave, when they brought a loaded weapon along on the test drive? That seems like a common sense issue to me.

MOO


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yeah, i think with the other option out, it becomes more common sense. Less muddy/more clear.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Re the Forcible Confinement issue, it seems to me that at least one journalist was surprised that it was taken off the table.

Also, I believe he was present in the courtroom for all the legal arguments. So why the surprise then?

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[JuneBug67]

Sorry for another long post...

If they did do a loop on Book Rd, and assuming MS's story is otherwise true, is it possible that that is where TB was shot by DM? I'll try not to speculate too much, but hear me out: With TB sitting in the passenger seat to offer directions, they should've had a general idea of where they were going, so it mustn't have been a mistake to drive down Book Rd originally. What prompted them to then turn around and loop back? Wouldn't it seem odd if DM said to TB, "Oh, we've driven down this road far enough, let's turn around and go back to Trinity and then drive north from there, maybe we'll take some back roads to Brantford." Whatever transpired, the scenario does raise an important question: how far did TB go before he realized something was up?

If TB was shot by DM along Book Rd, then MS's allusions to it happening in Brantford are wrong. At least, that's how I interpreted MS's story of the swerve on the road just before pulling over in front of Bobcat, the putting of the gun back in the satchel, the crazy look on DM's face, the remark "I'm taking this truck", etc. I sensed an air of recency in this evidence. I could be wrong, of course.

If TB was not shot in Ancaster, then how did DM single-handedly keep him confined in the truck all the way to Brantford -- did he hold a gun on him all the way along, while driving at the same time? If there was no confinement (i.e. no holding at gunpoint) and TB was totally complicit in going on a test drive to Brantford, wouldn't it reasonable for him to text his wife, "Hey babe I'm gonna drive to Brantford with these guys so I'm gonna be home a bit later. Don't worry though, they've got their own vehicle following behind so I'll just drive back home on my own." TB didn't even check FB or anything on his phone; it didn't ping off any towers until around 10pm.

Any of these scenarios are possible, but I do not believe any of them are likely. The 10 minute problem is significant and should not be dismissed. In my view there is only one scenario that fits the evidence within a strong probability, and that is where DM and MS took TB on a test drive, one or both of them shot him, and then they came back to get the Yukon. JMO.

The loop via Book wouldn't require a turn around. There is roughly 8km loop that would see them arrive back in front of Tim's house. Recalling how manipulative DM is I have no trouble imagining him keeping Tim at ease and expressing enthusiasm and wanting to continue testing the truck on other road, perhaps implying he could be near a decision. This was a $20,000 purchase, and the test with Igor lasted over an hour. It wouldn't have been an unreasonable request.

If we agree that Brantford is likely the latest time that Tim lost his life, I'd point out that it was still 30 minutes from that time that Sharlene sent a text asking where he was. Whatever was normal for them in terms of communication, normal for the expectations or the situation, I would draw from that that it was not necessarily strange that Tim didn't text her along the way even if he was still able to.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

yeah, i think with the other option out, it becomes more common sense. Less muddy/more clear.

Sadly, to me, it is one less path to possible 1st Degree Murder convictions, and IMO, FC is a simple matter of common sense. A scenario for FC doesn't need to be proven in my mind, it can be reasoned using only the facts at hand. They, doesn't matter who, brought a loaded weapon. When Tim entered that truck, is it reasonable to believe that they were ever going to let Tim leave of his own free will? From the moment Tim closed the door, freedom of choice to leave that situation no longer existed for him.

MOO


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[teamsundin]

The loop via Book wouldn't require a turn around. There is roughly 8km loop that would see them arrive back in front of Tim's house. Recalling how manipulative DM is I have no trouble imagining him keeping Tim at ease and expressing enthusiasm and wanting to continue testing the truck on other road, perhaps implying he could be near a decision. This was a $20,000 purchase, and the test with Igor lasted over an hour. It wouldn't have been an unreasonable request.

If we agree that Brantford is likely the latest time that Tim lost his life, I'd point out that it was still 30 minutes from that time that Sharlene sent a text asking where he was. Whatever was normal for them in terms of communication, normal for the expectations or the situation, I would draw from that that it was not necessarily strange that Tim didn't text her along the way even if he was still able to.

The drive with Igor was in the middle of day, not late evening. I can't imagine someone willing to go for a long test drive at 9pm at night.

 

[teamsundin]

Sadly, to me, it is one less path to possible 1st Degree Murder convictions, and IMO, FC is a simple matter of common sense. A scenario for FC doesn't need to be proven in my mind, it can be reasoned using only the facts at hand. They, doesn't matter who, brought a loaded weapon. When Tim entered that truck, is it reasonable to believe that they were ever going to let Tim leave of his own free will? From the moment Tim closed the door, freedom of choice to leave that situation no longer existed for him.

MOO


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Sure, but if he doesn't know about a gun or their plans how does he know he can't leave? He may have never tried.

 

[canadiangirl]

Sadly, to me, it is one less path to possible 1st Degree Murder convictions, and IMO, FC is a simple matter of common sense. A scenario for FC doesn't need to be proven in my mind, it can be reasoned using only the facts at hand. They, doesn't matter who, brought a loaded weapon. When Tim entered that truck, is it reasonable to believe that they were ever going to let Tim leave of his own free will? From the moment Tim closed the door, freedom of choice to leave that situation no longer existed for him.

MOO


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I believe the problem is you can't assume the other person had knowledge of this happening.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Sure, but if he doesn't know about a gun or their plans how does he know he can't leave? He may have never tried.

The point is more that we can see by what the outcome was that they were NOT going to let him leave. Tim was deprived of freedom of choice as soon as he closed the door, IMO.

And there doesn't need to be proof that Tim KNEW he was being forcibly confined.




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[billandrew]

The loop via Book wouldn't require a turn around. There is roughly 8km loop that would see them arrive back in front of Tim's house. Recalling how manipulative DM is I have no trouble imagining him keeping Tim at ease and expressing enthusiasm and wanting to continue testing the truck on other road, perhaps implying he could be near a decision. This was a $20,000 purchase, and the test with Igor lasted over an hour. It wouldn't have been an unreasonable request.

If we agree that Brantford is likely the latest time that Tim lost his life, I'd point out that it was still 30 minutes from that time that Sharlene sent a text asking where he was. Whatever was normal for them in terms of communication, normal for the expectations or the situation, I would draw from that that it was not necessarily strange that Tim didn't text her along the way even if he was still able to.

Fair enough. I still cannot grasp that as a remotely probably scenario, likely for the same reasons you've previously stated about using building blocks to build a wall. The blocks in that scenario are weak, IMO, relying on other evidence like the additional truck sightings being wrong and MS's own testimony of turning right onto Trinity from Book being wrong. I view the additional video sightings as a stronger block, whereas you may see it as a weaker block. It's all good. Thank you for the hearty discussion on this!

 

[brightii]

I think the jury must be at the point where they just want to get on with their deliberations. It's been a very long trial, and at times after hearing the case repeated in one version or another it becomes quite tedious and harder to judge. It's information overload - at least for me.

Thankfully by Monday the jury will begin to deliberate and soon hopefully they'll come to a unanimous verdict for each accused.

Enjoy your weekend everyone.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

The drive with Igor was in the middle of day, not late evening. I can't imagine someone willing to go for a long test drive at 9pm at night.

With $20,000 dollars at stake I think that might be a failure of imagination. And seriously, we have to bear in mind how well DM presented, how trustworthy he could seem. Tim wanted to sell the truck badly and DM, as we've seen, was a master at selling people their own dreams.

 

[canadiangirl]

The point is more that we can see by what the outcome was that they were NOT going to let him leave. Tim was deprived of freedom of choice as soon as he closed the door, IMO.


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You keep referencing they but the fact is we don't know if it was one, or both.

 

[matou]

My worry is that too much evidence was thrown out that linked to the other murders to find both guilty of murder in the first degree. I can see how a jury would go with guilty of second degree murder for both. JMO

 

[JuneBug67]

Fair enough. I still cannot grasp that as a remotely probably scenario, likely for the same reasons you've previously stated about using building blocks to build a wall. The blocks in that scenario are weak, IMO, relying on other evidence like the additional truck sightings being wrong and MS's own testimony of turning right onto Trinity from Book being wrong. I view the additional video sightings as a stronger block, whereas you may see it as a weaker block. It's all good. Thank you for the hearty discussion on this!

I definitely understand seeing the the video sightings as significant, and definitely see the appeal and credibility of a scenario built around them. I certainly wouldn't never dismiss that scenario; it is a really good possibility. I have noted though that every interpretation of the timeline is a compromise in some way. Mine has to assume Smich didn't know where he was going (credible? certainly consistent) and that the other truck(s) was unrelated, but it covers Bullmann's recollections and overall is not as unrealistic as you imply I don't think. Yours needs to conclude that two independent witnesses missed the same issue with a timestamp, one of those a police officer who presumably understands the critical importance of accuracy, and sidesteps or at least makes meaningless the Bullmann observations, as I understand it. So in short I agree your timeline is very good, but disagree that this one is significantly weaker. They both need to bend around various inconvenient facts.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Adrian Humpreys from the National Post has created an interesting diagram regarding the trial in this article:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/t...on-stand-on-the-details-of-tim-bosmas-killing


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[teamsundin]

With $20,000 dollars at stake I think that might be a failure of imagination. And seriously, we have to bear in mind how well DM presented, how trustworthy he could seem. Tim wanted to sell the truck badly and DM, as we've seen, was a master at selling people their own dreams.

We also know he was annoyed that they were already so late. Going for a half an hour drive and knowing you have to do another half hour to come back is very long. And even if it were possible...if you're sitting in the passenger seat watching this guy drive would you not get bored out of your mind and have texted people, perhaps your wife complaining that this guy wants to keep going? I don't think it's likely he doesn't send a text after 15-20 minutes of driving away from his home.

 

[ILoveDateline]

Warmest praise and thanks to ILoveDateline and Kamille for your great kindness and technical prowess in providing us with all the tweets. Don't know where we would be without you and all the other great WS tweeters! Thank you all! [emoji307]


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Thanks. I don't know how kamille does them ALL, and in the proper order! Mine are always reversed and I have two monitors and four windows going. Kamille, you're a superstar!

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[MrsThreadgoode]

Thanks. I don't know how kamille does them ALL, and in the proper order! Mine are always reversed and I have two monitors and four windows going. Kamille, you're a superstar!

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You BOTH are ... All of the tweeters are. [emoji851] And greatly appreciated too!!


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[deugirtni]

I mostly agree with you, that's why I'm being nitpicky about certain things Don't think I'm picking on you....

The judge clearly said in his charge that the fact that TD did not pose certain questions to witnesses was to be considered by the jury. So, it would have benefitted TD/MS if TD had asked those questions (of course, assuming he got the answers he was looking for).....the fact that he didn't corroborate MS's story when given the opportunity is only going to hurt MS. MOO

I forget which MS story isn't corroborated by TD after MS's testimony.. the fact that BD was there when DM was with MS before DM's arrest? I can't remember what the significance of that is. Can someone remind me please?

 

[deugirtni]

We also know he was annoyed that they were already so late. Going for a half an hour drive and knowing you have to do another half hour to come back is very long. And even if it were possible...if you're sitting in the passenger seat watching this guy drive would you not get bored out of your mind and have texted people, perhaps your wife complaining that this guy wants to keep going? I don't think it's likely he doesn't send a text after 15-20 minutes of driving away from his home.

It isn't like TB had to have been killed either at the Bullman property OR where DM pulled over in front of Bobcat. He could have been shot anywhere along the way, but DM perhaps chose not to stop to let MS know the change of plans until he felt it was a safe area in which to do so. Also, depending on whether TB's truck was actually worth the price he was asking, it may or may not have been going to be an easy sell for TB to sell his truck. I recall SB saying he hopped into the front passenger seat, and I got the impression TB was quite cheerful, who wouldn't be, if it looked like he was finally going to get rid of his lemon? And from the sounds of things, DM had the gift of coming across as 'trustworthy' and personable; DM could have had a million things to talk about to kind of keep TB's focus on things other than where they were headed or how far they were going to go. moo