Bosma Murder Trial 06.10.16 - Day 59 - Charge to jury

[ILoveDateline]

I forget which MS story isn't corroborated by TD after MS's testimony.. the fact that BD was there when DM was with MS before DM's arrest? I can't remember what the significance of that is. Can someone remind me please?

I was about to say there was so much that wasn't corroborated, which is true, but when I sat here thinking of the list, BD is the only witness that wasn't asked the questions that could have corroborated it. Everything else that wasn't corroborated couldn't be, or wasn't, corroborated by witness testimony. It was parts of CN, MM and AMs testimony that was contradictory to MS story. And the SS video of course. So I guess it's true, TD did not ask BD about the meeting on the 10th. I guess that's it. Am I, too, missing anything that could have been confirmed or denied by witness testimony?

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[NoodlesMcgee]

I was about to say there was so much that wasn't corroborated, which is true, but when I sat here thinking of the list, BD is the only witness that wasn't asked the questions that could have corroborated it. Everything else that wasn't corroborated couldn't be, or wasn't, corroborated by witness testimony. It was parts of CN, MM and AMs testimony that was contradictory to MS story. And the SS video of course. So I guess it's true, TD did not ask BD about the meeting on the 10th. I guess that's it. Am I, too, missing anything that could have been confirmed or denied by witness testimony?

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The other one the judge brought up is the fact that CN talked to MM and not him the night of the arrest. He could of asked MM about that.

 

[deugirtni]

Re the Forcible Confinement issue, it seems to me that at least one journalist was surprised that it was taken off the table.

Also, I believe he was present in the courtroom for all the legal arguments. So why the surprise then?

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It doesn't necessarily convey surprise on the journalist's part, but rather, he is pointing out what a big deal it is. Considering that other trials have seemingly left it to the jury to decide if a forcible confinement took place, I am really confused now. It sure would have been helpful if the judge had explained why this possibility is off the table for this case. Or perhaps he did explain it, but we weren't tweeted every word? Hopefully one of the journalists will write a story in the news regarding why the judge took this off the table in this case? moo

ETA: I just wanted to mention that at least a couple of times, at least a couple of journalists tweeted that they weren't tweeting everything. At one point AC said it got confusing; LH also noted that to simplify, she was not tweeting everything, because there was complication and duplication, IIRC. I wonder if this subject was one of the times when things got confusing? Hopefully one of the journos took it upon themselves to enquire of the Crown as to the reasoning for this; I know I would have, had I been a journalist in attendance today. moo

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Smich's timeline needs about 10 minutes plugged in to it to make sense, most credibly before he gets to the Bosma's. Here's how it could look if you were trying to make something fit with his story. All times listed relative to Super Sucker time.

8:46 first pass by Super Sucker
8:48 arrive near Bosma home
8:58 complete reconnaissance of area including finding home, mapping possible test drive route, killing time for darkness, searching for a place to park
8:59 depart on foot for Bosma's
9:06 arrive at Bosma driveway
9:10 depart Bosma house
9:11 arrive at field after pause for fake text, pause to let MS out, do X point turn
9:12 go west on Book and do 10 km loop back to Super Sucker at ~70 kph
9:20 pass by Super Sucker

Thx for putting that together. Very interesting, as that scenario of going west on book coincides with what Bullman testified to.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

It isn't like TB had to have been killed either at the Bullman property OR where DM pulled over in front of Bobcat. He could have been shot anywhere along the way, but DM perhaps chose not to stop to let MS know the change of plans until he felt it was a safe area in which to do so. Also, depending on whether TB's truck was actually worth the price he was asking, it may or may not have been going to be an easy sell for TB to sell his truck. I recall SB saying he hopped into the front passenger seat, and I got the impression TB was quite cheerful, who wouldn't be, if it looked like he was finally going to get rid of his lemon? And from the sounds of things, DM had the gift of coming across as 'trustworthy' and personable; DM could have had a million things to talk about to kind of keep TB's focus on things other than where they were headed or how far they were going to go. moo

Would be pretty risky to pull out a gun and hope its not noticed before you shoot a guy who's like 1 foot away from you.

Hadn't really thought about it, but he'd have to pull it out of his man purse and then he'd want it a fair distance away from his own body so he doesn't accidentally shoot himself while avoiding the steering wheel. Be an awkward move while driving.

 

[ILoveDateline]

Thx for putting that together. Very interesting, as that scenario of going west on book coincides with what Bullman testified to.

Did you make it to the courthouse today?

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[hellkat2]

Goodman says they can use this evidence in certain ways. It was admitted to provide context, and to shed light on possible motive.
by Adam Carter 12:07 PM

Goodman says this may seem confusing at first, but he hopes it isn't.
by Adam Carter 12:08 PM

The judge's statement "You can use evidence to shed light on possible motive" is great in my opinion. This means that common sense prevails. DM and MS left the bosma driveway with TB in TB's truck and were observed by TB's wife and TB's tenant doing so. TB's truck was found in the driveway of TB's mother's home and TB's bone fragments were found in the incinerator owned by DM. The judge also said the jury may make inferences and reasoning based on evidence presented. So I feel there is enough evidence to conclude that Tim Bosma was murdered immediately following the "test drive" that the "accused" used as a ploy to lure the "deceased" to participate in the carrying out of their criminal activity. Eye witnesses to all three of them in the vehicle that did not return to the bosma driveway with Tim Bosma alive and well, gun casings, DNA, fingerprints. First Degree Murder for both DM and MS. Confinement cannot be ruled out or ignored. A loaded gun pointed at someone is confinement. You are confined from your freedom when someone has a gun pointed at you. In TB's case I believe the jury can make inferences and reasoning that this occured based on the evidence. TB's blood was all over his own truck. He was murdered in it or trying to get out of it or trying to get away from the forcible confinement of a loaded gun. I don't think it will take this jury long to find these two guilty of first degree cold blooded murder. Luring someone into a vehicle on false premises is fact. This happened.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

BBM - his testimony IS evidence....like it or not.....may not be credible evidence....but it IS evidence.

I do agree with your assessment of the judge's instructions about TD not posing questions to the witnesses.....the judge stated that the omission of questions CAN be considered during their deliberations....

MOO

yes, in addition ( I'm not sure if it was tweeted or not) the judge also provided a couple other examples like Meneses not being asked during cross if she had spoken to Noudga, and Fraser not asking MS if TB was shot outside the truck.
The judge then emphasized that the lawyers don't have to cross examine every detail, before adding that the jurors can still take it into account.

 

[canadiangirl]

Would be pretty risky to pull out a gun and hope its not noticed before you shoot a guy who's like 1 foot away from you.

Hadn't really thought about it, but he'd have to pull it out of his man purse and then he'd want it a fair distance away from his own body so he doesn't accidentally shoot himself while avoiding the steering wheel. Be an awkward move while driving.

I don't think it would be that difficult if done with your left hand vs right. Driving slower would but you in control and no real traffic unless shot on the hwy. TB wouldn't see him reaching for a gun since TB would be on his right not left, and it was getting dark at that time. And DM is left handed so it'd be comfortable for him vs awkward.

 

[billandrew]

I definitely understand seeing the the video sightings as significant, and definitely see the appeal and credibility of a scenario built around them. I certainly wouldn't never dismiss that scenario; it is a really good possibility. I have noted though that every interpretation of the timeline is a compromise in some way. Mine has to assume Smich didn't know where he was going (credible? certainly consistent) and that the other truck(s) was unrelated, but it covers Bullmann's recollections and overall is not as unrealistic as you imply I don't think. Yours needs to conclude that two independent witnesses missed the same issue with a timestamp, one of those a police officer who presumably understands the critical importance of accuracy, and sidesteps or at least makes meaningless the Bullmann observations, as I understand it. So in short I agree your timeline is very good, but disagree that this one is significantly weaker. They both need to bend around various inconvenient facts.

I appreciate your comments, but the possibility of one scenario being weaker than the other goes much further than these compromises that you highlight. In order to give MS's story (and the "loop" scenario) any strength:

• I'd have to accept that DM dropped MS off at the Yukon, which was turned off (no lights) and not idling and parked in the laneway of a farmer's field, and MS got in the driver's side, despite there being a supposed friend in there who was just driving it and couldn't find Tim Horton's. I would have to accept that all of this transpired in front of TB's eyes and didn't raise any serious suspicions.
• I'd have to accept that DM could convince TB to drive in a 5-10 minute loop around his house and then agree to take backroads all the way to Brantford, with the Yukon following them, on a Monday night after 9pm, and that this still did not raise any serious suspicions from TB and it didn't prompt him to let SB know even though the last thing he said to her was, "I'll be right back!"
• I'd have to accept that MS forgot or misrecollected driving in a 5-10 minute loop around Bosma's house, even though they had supposedly scoped the area in advance upon arriving in Ancaster.
• I'd have to accept that DM was capable of single-handedly shooting TB while driving with no assistance or backup from MS.
• I'd have to accept the other video sightings not being TB's truck.

Too many weak building blocks leading to an unrealistic scenario IMO. As for the scenario of DM and MS both being in the truck when TB was shot:

• I don't view the timestamp issue as a significant compromise and I don't think it affects the Crown's case much one way or the other. DM's lawyers highlighted it to discredit the Crown's witnesses, and MS overlooked it when he formulated his story. MS even told the court that he didn't often listen when Pillay or Sachak were asking questions. MS unknowingly built his story around an error of the Crown -- an error which only became significant once he used it.
• Bullman's testimony could still be correct if all three video sightings were TB's truck. Given the 5 minute period between the second Super Sucker video sighting and the third, they had 1 minute to drive back to the Yukon, 30 seconds to let MS into the Yukon and get turned around, 1 minute to drive the wrong way down Book Rd, 1 minute to drive back, and 1 more minute to get back to Super Sucker with 30 seconds to spare.

I've enjoyed fleshing out these scenarios with you. It's ultimately brought me in a loop of my own and reaffirmed in my mind that MS's scenario is unrealistic and that DM and MS were in the truck together when TB was shot.

 

[hellkat2]

You keep referencing they but the fact is we don't know if it was one, or both.

If you have a loaded gun pointed at you then you are beholden. You cannot do what you want to do. You are confined. You cannot leave. If this is done during the process of you being robbed and lured into it under false pretenses by the likes of DM and MS then I think you can make a logical inference that both individuals are responsible for the crimes and lots of evidence to support this. According to the judge the jury cannot use anything DM or MS said to make logical inferences about. You can on actual facts.
The example of you put milk in a bowl for your cat at her feeding time and you came back 5 minutes later and it was gone. You can make logical inference that the cat drank it. Excellent example.

 

[matou]

When the trial began, Goodman told jurors there were two ways to get to first-degree murder. One was if the Crown could prove Bosma was forcibly confined before he was murdered.


Now, after hearing the evidence, the judge has taken that option away.


"You are directed that you shall not conclude or return a verdict of first-degree murder in this case by virtue of any accused person committing an unlawful confinement of Bosma," he instructed jurors.


That leaves just one route to first-degree murder, and that is being satisfied this murder was "planned and deliberate."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...to-deliberate-on-verdicts-bottom-rung-and-up/

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Yes. It's always been clear that there is a 10 minute problem in the timeline. Loop via Book is one thought, potentially supported by Bullman testimony. That assumes Smich misremembered the route they took, which is possible for a variety of reasons. The SS timestamp being out/additional sightings being Tim's truck is of course another significant and quite credible possibility. But, the fact remains that every permutation has a compromise of some kind.

ETA I always felt that the 10 minute problem existed mostly before they arrived at the Bosma's if you accept the Crown/MS timeline that assumes SS timestamp is 3 hours out. So really the gap I filled was the 10 minutes of recon before the walk to Bosma's.

When you wrote your hypothetical scenario, I had an epiphany that this ten minute loop completely could make sense, and the killing could have happened during it. As we know, It corroborates Bullmans observation that the cars went west on Book instead of turning onto Trinity. Doesn't Bullmans approx 9:15 pm - 9:30 pm regular dog walking timeline still fit with this also, as it is a relatively wide window.

 

[hellkat2]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...to-deliberate-on-verdicts-bottom-rung-and-up/

what??? Why not???? Did he explain???

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

It doesn't necessarily convey surprise on the journalist's part, but rather, he is pointing out what a big deal it is. Considering that other trials have seemingly left it to the jury to decide if a forcible confinement took place, I am really confused now. It sure would have been helpful if the judge had explained why this possibility is off the table for this case. Or perhaps he did explain it, but we weren't tweeted every word? Hopefully one of the journalists will write a story in the news regarding why the judge took this off the table in this case? moo

ETA: I just wanted to mention that at least a couple of times, at least a couple of journalists tweeted that they weren't tweeting everything. At one point AC said it got confusing; LH also noted that to simplify, she was not tweeting everything, because there was complication and duplication, IIRC. I wonder if this subject was one of the times when things got confusing? Hopefully one of the journos took it upon themselves to enquire of the Crown as to the reasoning for this; I know I would have, had I been a journalist in attendance today. moo

Thank you! Just want to let you know that on Twitter, a couple of people responded to this tweet of Adam's, asking why FC was no longer up for consideration, as Justice Goodman did say it was at the beginning of the trial. (Beginning of the trial, he had said there were 2 paths, premeditation one path, FC the second, to 1st degree.)

Adam answered that there was no answer/reason given by Justice Goodman, and that Adam didn't know the answer. (Paraphrasing.)


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[NoodlesMcgee]

Regarding the forcible confinement - perhaps it isn't available since TB willingly got into the car? Or perhaps because all theories given by the defense and the crown didn't factor into it. Not too sure.

FWIW here is the criminal code on Forcible Confinement:
[h=6]Forcible confinement[/h][FONT=&quot](2) Every one who, without lawful authority, confines, imprisons or forcibly seizes another person is guilty of[/FONT]

• (a) an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
  
• (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

 

[spanishshara]

What's everyone's guess on how long the jury takes to deliberate?

 

[hellkat2]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...to-deliberate-on-verdicts-bottom-rung-and-up/

DM and MS lured Tim Bosma into the test drive under false pretenses. They were not wanting to purchase it. The intent was to steal it. They brought a loaded gun to the luring. TB was murdered in the process. Lots of evidence before, during and after that DM and MS participated in the mission from beginning to the end. If the judge wants to throw out forcible confinement ...then .....even still....in my opinion there is enough evidence to the jury for them to make a logical inference and conclusion that it is first degree murder or DM and MS. I believe the jury will conclude this very quickly. Less than four hours.

 

[hellkat2]

Regarding the forcible confinement - perhaps it isn't available since TB willingly got into the car? Or perhaps because all theories given by the defense and the crown didn't factor into it. Not too sure.

FWIW here is the criminal code on Forcible Confinement:
[h=6]Forcible confinement[/h][FONT="](2) Every one who, without lawful authority, confines, imprisons or forcibly seizes another person is guilty of[/FONT]

• (a) an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
  
• (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

Tim Bosma was lured into that test drive on false pretenses. Did Tim Bosma know that it wasn't a test drive to purchase that it was a test drive to steal the vehicle and that there was a loaded gun on board???

 

[hellkat2]

What's everyone's guess on how long the jury takes to deliberate?

4 hours.