Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

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The original statement remains in the court file, and the defense team can cross only on the new statement. However, the fact that the statement has been changed becomes part of the record, together with all the relevant legal arguments. Depending on what the change is, how critical it is to the case, the defence team can question a witness as to his/her reliability in remembering facts, her credibility, etc. But in doing so, one has to consider how the witness is going to answer, and is it going to prove helpful to the defence or not.

This is not true. We've seen multiple examples at this trial where there has been extensive cross examination on the various contradictory police statements given by witnesses. In one case, Dungey held the bound copies of the different statements of one witness up for the jury to see complete with all the post-it notes marking what he said were witness lies.

It doesn't make any sense at all from a legal point of view to block the defendants from using a witness's prior inconsistent statements.

Also how is the original police statement on the "court file" unless it's an exhibit?
 
walkie talkie? it is mentioned that they used these on stake outs. so......???? where did this info that mm contacted smich? was it part of her testimony?
 
Palisadesk thank you so much for your last write up. It cleared up so much for me on that last question of billandrew's very well, i have always wondered on that for years.
 
Just days before she testifies MM writes a *new* statement which she gets to refer to in court. Isn't that odd? What happens to the original one then?
The defense must have agreed to the new evidence in an argument... SO..... Can the defense team still refer to the first one during cross? anyone know?
Is MM writing a new statement legal code for changing her testimony? AKA legal code for getting caught in a lie that she had to come clean on ???? What the heck???!!!!!!
 
It's nice for a change to have such a quiet weekend, sometimes i wonder if many of you even sleep. :) i just want to say that sometimes as i am going through my day i waver between feelings between TB and the monsters. If i am doing something luxurious or i hear a sweet sound i feel sorry for T and S B because they/he have that stolen from them, then i like to picture DM/ MS in prison not enjoying such luxuries. The i also wonder if 25 yrs is long enough.
 
Is MM writing a new statement legal code for changing her testimony? AKA legal code for getting caught in a lie that she had to come clean on ???? What the heck???!!!!!!

No she just clarified that when she entered DM's Yukon, the two told them that they had stolen a truck.
 
Dellen is representing himself now...so that should take up lots of time......not sure what happened to his first lawyer.

One thing that happened is that his first lawyer was never properly retained (a matter that requires payment of a retention fee and certain court paperwork.) Whether the fee matter was ever resolved, I don't know. But Paradkar withdrew from the case, leaving it to his associate, Pillay, who was eventually retained and had been involved in the case from the start.

This article raises more questions than it answers:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5688757-tim-bosma-accused-killer-dellen-millard-gets-a-new-lawyer/

DM may indeed be representing himself for something to do; he's likely pretty bored (he appeared to be an individual used to a lot of high-stimulation activities). He can always opt for a Legal Aid lawyer later if it comes to that; I suspect the "family fortune" may have vanished under his fiduciary management. He did hire a Hamilton lawyer for the first stages of the case involving his father's murder, but there hasn't been any update on that.
 
Is MM writing a new statement legal code for changing her testimony? AKA legal code for getting caught in a lie that she had to come clean on ???? What the heck???!!!!!!

It's not unusual for witnesses to remember details that they didn't think of when they made their first statement. It doesn't mean they were "lying" on either occasion.
 
Somebody mentioned on this post that Dellen is defending himself and complaining he has not been given enough access to legal things he needs. Is this true? If this is the case....what has happened to the legal process. Someone else has referred to this quite accurately saying DM doing his own defense is like what Bundy did. This will drag things on quite a bit. Which is exactly what he wants. Any excuse to be out of the cell.

It is like what Bundy did, but a fact that people are less likely aware of is that the courts in Ontario and across Canada are being inundated by people representing themselves - more often in divorces, custody cases and vehicle offenses, but in criminal cases too.So, while Bundy may have been an anomaly in his time, DM is less of one in ours, It's not so common in serious criminal cases, though. Legal Aid covered the cases of Bernardo and Rafferty, among other recent "notables."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/representing-self-court-lawyers-1.3375609

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/courting-a-crisis/
 
It is like what Bundy did, but a fact that people are less likely aware of is that the courts in Ontario and across Canada are being inundated by people representing themselves - more often in divorces, custody cases and vehicle offenses, but in criminal cases too.So, while Bundy may have been an anomaly in his time, DM is less of one in ours, It's not so common in serious criminal cases, though. Legal Aid covered the cases of Bernardo and Rafferty, among other recent "notables."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/representing-self-court-lawyers-1.3375609

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/courting-a-crisis/

Not sure what your source is for syaing that Bernardo and Rafferty had lawyers covered by Legal Aid. Who has a Legal Aid lawyer is not information on the public record and it's pretty difficult to qualify for Legal Aid. I find it hard to believe Bernardo would have been eligible. Rafferty, more likely.
 
It is like what Bundy did, but a fact that people are less likely aware of is that the courts in Ontario and across Canada are being inundated by people representing themselves - more often in divorces, custody cases and vehicle offenses, but in criminal cases too.So, while Bundy may have been an anomaly in his time, DM is less of one in ours, It's not so common in serious criminal cases, though. Legal Aid covered the cases of Bernardo and Rafferty, among other recent "notables."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/representing-self-court-lawyers-1.3375609

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/courting-a-crisis/

From the Macleans article:

In a survey performed last year, 84 out of 132 litigants approached randomly in Ontario courthouses said they were representing themselves, taking advantage of the ready availability of information online, and research skills learned in university.

That stuck out to me because DM didn't spend four years after high school honing his research skills...and I don't think he would have online access in his current situation. He probably had to buy a set of disks...

Seems optimistic on his part, anyway.
 
Not sure what your source is for syaing that Bernardo and Rafferty had lawyers covered by Legal Aid. Who has a Legal Aid lawyer is not information on the public record and it's pretty difficult to qualify for Legal Aid. I find it hard to believe Bernardo would have been eligible. Rafferty, more likely.

My source is interviews with Derstine and Rosen. Not personal interviews, ones they gave that were available through the media. Derstine was talking with the interviewer about the challenges faced by counsel doing cases on Legal Aid when there were many complexities to the case (he cited examples). He wasn't complaining, but elaborating on the limitations Legal Aid imposed on his ability to hire staff and so forth.

Bernardo had no assets; he was living off the proceeds of selling illegal smuggled cigarettes. His parents may have helped him initially (I don't know - though they had their own legal issues to deal with) but Rosen mentioned Legal Aid too; however I don't recall the context because it was much longer ago.

Edited to add: Both Bernardo and Rafferty were denied Legal Aid for lawyers for appeals of their convictions (last I heard anyway) but I was referring in my original post to their jury trials.
 
My source is interviews with Derstine and Rosen. Not personal interviews, ones they gave that were available through the media. Derstine was talking with the interviewer about the challenges faced by counsel doing cases on Legal Aid when there were many complexities to the case (he cited examples). He wasn't complaining, but elaborating on the limitations Legal Aid imposed on his ability to hire staff and so forth.

Bernardo had no assets; he was living off the proceeds of selling illegal smuggled cigarettes. His parents may have helped him initially (I don't know - though they had their own legal issues to deal with) but Rosen mentioned Legal Aid too; however I don't recall the context because it was much longer ago.

Edited to add: Both Bernardo and Rafferty were denied Legal Aid for lawyers for appeals of their convictions (last I heard anyway) but I was referring in my original post to their jury trials.

If you have sources, then why don't you cite them? As a rule, lawyers will not say that any one specific client is a Legal Aid case. The fact that they do some Legal Aid work and talk about it can't be used to prove that every one of their clients is a Legal Aid case.

FWIW, I have never before heard the claim that Bernardo was a Legal Aid case. And if him, why not Homolka?

Sorry but until I see an actual citation, I'm not buying it.
 
In serious cases with high penalties the general rule is the judge appointing a lawyer for the accused. For example, Basil Borutski he's accused of killing three former partners in one day is being appointed a lawyer by the court because him not having a lawyer would be bad. Here's the attorney general explanation why:

"Whatever the reason for his or her status, the self-represented accused is usually ill-equipped to conduct a criminal trial. He or she comes to court with a rudimentary understanding of the trial process, often influenced by misleading depictions from television shows and the movies. His or her knowledge of substantive legal principles is limited to that derived from reading an annotated Criminal Code. He or she is unaware of procedural and evidentiary rules. Even once made aware of the rules, he or she is reluctant to comply with them, or has difficulty doing so. The limitations imposed by the concept of relevance are not understood or are ignored, and the focus of the trial is often on tangential matters. Questions, whether in examination-in-chief or cross-examination, are not framed properly. Rambling, disjointed or convoluted questions are the norm. The opportunity to make submissions is viewed as an opportunity to give evidence without entering the witness box."

https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/lesage_code/chapter_7.php


They clearly look very unfavourably on people representing themselves because it delays the trial and means that either the judge has to help the accused, a lawyer who works for the courts has to be secured to provide general advice to the accused or a lawyer has to be appointed, it's just messy and delays the trial.
 
It's a tricky balancing act, but let's start with this: most criminal lawyers are regularly dealing with clients who have broken the law (not all of them, but most), and so, in some sense, the client is "guilty." But guilty of what, exactly?

Take the case of the Toronto police officer who shot the boy Sammy Yatin in the streetcar. That officer was clearly guilty of firing his gun and killing the young man. But was he guilty of 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, or was it justifiable homicide in the performance of his professional duties and in accordance with his training? In that case, the nature of the accused's responsibility was what the jury had to determine, as the broad outline of the events that occurred was well known. It was by no means an open-and-shut "obvious" case - different very conscientious jurors could, and likely did, interpret the evidence differently and would reach a different verdict with respect to the officer's guilt. They ended up bringing down a verdict of guilty of attempted murder. That was probably a compromise, where different jurors felt that the officer was more (or less) culpable. Because the crime was less brutally heinous than ones like this, I don't think there was any outcry that a lawyer should not be defending him, but it illustrates one aspect of the question: the lawyer is not tasked with judging the degree or extent of the client's guilt, but with ensuring his right to a fair trial, including acting as a watchdog on evidence brought against him, putting forward any mitigating factors that may apply (the lawyer in this case, IIRC, made a pretty big deal about the type of training the officer had received and argued his response was consistent with it - whether that is justification is something the jury decides, but the lawyer's bringing the matter up is quite ethical).

Remember that, in sensational cases such as this (as well as in lesser ones), clients are not necessarily telling their lawyers the truth. If they say they have an alibi, the lawyer will research it and see if it can be honestly put forward. The lawyer will not, ethically, present evidence that he knows to be false (something Crowns, as well as defense counsel, have done in the past), He will call witnesses that support his client, whether these be character witnesses, witnesses that provide an alibi, or witnesses that call Crown evidence into question that he feels are credible and telling the truth. He can of course be wrong (as can the Crown about its witnesses), but the witnesses he calls, he calls in good faith that they are honest and will bring needed evidence to the table.

In really damning cases, the most the defense counsel can do may be to challenge some evidence, based on valid legal arguments, and raise doubts about the validity of some testimony. He will not try to argue that his client is "innocent." The client enters the court "innocent until proven guilty," although the general public has the opposite approach in most cases: if someone is charged with sensational crimes, the public normally considers them guilty until proven innocent.

Often the defense counsel will try to arrange a plea resolution agreement that he feels is fair to the client (given the facts and evidence he is aware of), and if the Crown agrees, this frequently takes place, but less often in cases like this, where as the saying goes, justice must be seen to be done. The Homolka "deal" is still fresh in many minds.

So in general (and I'm not a lawyer, but have many legal contacts) it is unethical for a defense lawyer, or a Crown either, to knowingly put forward false "facts" or arguments, but it is legitimate to emphasize areas where mitigating circumstances might apply, where circumstantial evidence is capable of more than one interpretation, where details are unknown, where the Crown's evidence may be questionable, and suggest that the totality of the evidence does not add up to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

In some cases, the defense enters a counter-narrative, but if one does so, he is ethically obliged to consider it may be true. He doesn't have to be certain (nor does the Crown have to be certain of the guilt of the accused), but he can't put forth a wild tale the client told him just because the client told him. He's used to having clients who lie, after all. And criminal defense lawyers rarely ask their clients if they are "guilty." That is a matter for the jury to decide.

This essay may be of use, but with a caveat: it's referring to the US criminal justice system and not all the details are the same. For example, Canada does not have a "double jeopardy" guarantee. If a court acquits someone here, the Crown can appeal and try the person again in hopes of a conviction. That is not allowed in the USA, but a recent case here was of Guy Paul Morin, who was acquitted at his first trial, convicted on the second (massive screw-ups in that trial by multiple parties), and completely exonerated by DNA.

http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/defense.html

In this case, I doubt any of the legal teams believe the accused had nothing to do with the death of Tim Bosma. But there is room for debate on whether they are equally guilty, whether it was "planned and deliberate," whether it was a robbery that went amiss, even whether the shooting was accidental (I don't buy it, but a possible scenario might be imagined). I think it will be hard for DM's lawyer to make a strong counter-argument, but they may be in possession of facts we don't know yet. MS's team may be able to put forward an argument that while their client was a party to the offense, he neither planned nor executed the killing and therefore is guilty of a lesser degree of homicide than his co-accused. If one of the lawyers put such an argument forward, he would (ethically) need to think it is a possible scenario. He does not need to "know" it is true -- how could he know, anyway? - but he cannot put forth an argument that he knows is untrue.

this has evolved Into a game whereby the lawyer with the best ability to provide doubt as to validity of the evidence, "wins" and his client who is most likely truly guilty of murder gets away with a lesser charge and lesser sentence. And this is justice? This will satisfy the public and the Bosma family that those responsible for Tim's death are truly serving a life sentence for their crimes?

Murder is the worst crime and should be treated as such. These 2 low life's don't respect human life and therefore do not deserve to have any chance of freedom ever. They lost that right when they chose to kill an innocent man for no reason than a thrill and a used hunk of steel! Their ability to choose right from wrong is non existent. Rehab doesn't work for these types of monsters.

Life in prison with no chance of parole is the only solution for these two. The general public should not ever have to worry about these psychos being free to start up their perverted lifestyle of thieving and killing again.
 
If you have sources, then why don't you cite them? As a rule, lawyers will not say that any one specific client is a Legal Aid case. The fact that they do some Legal Aid work and talk about it can't be used to prove that every one of their clients is a Legal Aid case.

FWIW, I have never before heard the claim that Bernardo was a Legal Aid case. And if him, why not Homolka?

Sorry but until I see an actual citation, I'm not buying it.

I don't have print sources I can cite, because these were video interviews, besides which, most stuff from Bernardo's trial (20 years ago) is no longer online. Also, no one, least of all me, was suggesting that "all their cases were Legal Aid." Derstine was specifically discussing the Rafferty case and no other, and the Bernardo example was the same -- his case was the subject of the discussion, not any other cases.

Homolka reportedly had help with her legal fees for George Walker from family. They have always been supportive of her, in spite of everything. But I do not know the former for certain, though the latter is a fact.

I'm not selling, so it's fine if you're not buying :) You asked, I tried to satisfy your curiosity. I failed to do so, and cela suffit..

Edited to add: Well, I can provide a cite for the Rafferty case. It was a Global TV interview

[video=youtube;YwbBNgSO15M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwbBNgSO15M[/video]

at 15:00 + you can hear the Global background reporter reference the fact that the case was paid for by Legal Aid.

But I didn't have internet during the Bernardo trial. Maybe just as well.
 
This was probably the exception not the rule. I'm sure if she's testifying she was offered protection of some sort.

Sorry, it is not the exception and I previously provided legal resources to substantiate. It is a Charter guarantee against self-incrimination. What they testify to cannot be used against them in a subsequent proceeding UNLESS they have committed perjury.
 
NOTE: We do not have any verified legal experts in this thread. If you are stating something as a legal fact, please back it up with a link to a legal resource to substantiate it. Otherwise it is an opinion only and should be made clear that it is an opinion (i.e. JMO, MOO, IMO, I think, I believe, etc).

Also, cut the snark ... it's not in the spirit of Websleuths and is against TOS.

:tyou:
 
I have a question. I've been watching a few police interrogations on Youtube and I was wondering when everything is finished with this trial (and the trials of WM and LB) will the interrogations of DM, MS and CN be released to the public?
 
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