Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[ILoveDateline]

I don't think it was contradictory, but perhaps it was unclear! I was only meaning to make the point that something that was such a strong piece of evidence for me didn't even make it to cross examination, and from that I concluded that we are really missing so much that is important to understanding the weight and value of the evidence we try to parse via Twitter. I mean I thought it was THE thing that changed everything with regard to premeditation, and as far as I can tell via Twitter it wasn't even raised with Mark Smich. For me, it was a cautionary tale about how much I could know from this distance.

THAT I surely agree with.

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[Ontario Mom]

Great question, and even though it wasn't directed at me, I'll take the liberty of answering.

Many here have focused on the sausage/fireside furniture pics/texts or at the very least held that up as an example of "see, putting him in the incinerator was planned". And, that may very well be true. Or, it may very well not be. Those pics/texts could have absolutely nothing to do with this crime at all. The same exact way they talked about other things (like oxy, and MS's bad shoulder and planning for an actual barbecue) that had absolutely nothing to do with this crime. This is the problem for me.

If there was a text conversation that specifically spoke of the crime murder, or any mention of bringing a gun on the test drive in the same way they very openly spoke of the crime of stealing a truck, then there'd be no doubt in my mind at all. But there wasn't. There was no text conversation about bringing a gun, shooting a man or incinerating him. Nothing at all on the various devices or even deleted and backed up on the hard drives. Plenty of evidence of pre-planning a truck theft, which MS has never denied, but zero evidence of pre-planning a murder. Just some ambiguous texts about sausages & fireside furniture that the Crown didn't focus on, really at all.

IF there was an plan to kill a man, I'm more inclined to believe it was DM's plan and that's why he bought the gun and brought the gun. IF there are those following this case that have had the benefit of hearing legal arguments that many of us here have not heard, that may explain a few things though.

Okay I'm quoting my own post to admit I have to be missing something. For so many to be so convinced murdering Tim Bosma was pre-planned by both DM and MS, what is your bullet list of evidence taken as a whole that got you there?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

In the simplest of terms ...

It is a fact that both DM and MS admit that their intent was only to steal that truck.

It is a fact that at least one loaded weapon accompanied them in order to steal the truck.

It is a fact that DM and MS left with Tim in the truck.

It is a fact that Tim was murdered and incinerated during the commission of the theft of that truck.

Discounting the abundance of other evidence, and reasonably speaking, what is the most probable conclusion one can come to here?

Is it most probable that Tim would have ever felt free to leave that truck?

I think not.

(In order to prove forcible confinement, there does not need to be proof of being physically restrained.)

MOO



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[ILoveDateline]

On my iPhone so not sure if quotes will work. This is regarding Fraser question on 50 min visit DM had with MS on May 10 just prior to DM arrest.
-- LE knows this as DM under survellience.
-- IMO, I cannot believe the discussion was not around more hiding of evidence and or what had occurred already, etc. and MS in memoty loss was CYA (cover your *advertiser censored*) mode. Could not say anything in court as it went against his narrative.
-- is this where LE starts watching MS? I think his actual survellience started on May 14? And they let it possibly go on to see what he was up to.
-- DM arrest on May 10. I guess LE would not have probable cause to have warrants to search his properties. And he gave wrong a different home to where he normally stayed. It was Maplegrove that AM was staying and had the MJ removed after call from MS. (Correct?)
It was generally Maplegrove where most of parties were for friends?
-- I bet LE really regrets they could not of gotten warrants sooner.
-- it will be enlightening to see what comes out post trial on how much more evidence was likely suppressed by court debate.
-- would appreciate anyone commenting on 50 min and how they knew.
-- and another topic. The SIM card.
If u power off your phone it does not still ping to a cell tower? Not just turn off but power down to save battery life etc?
Or do u always have to take the SIM card out?
I have iPhone so not sure about SIM card or trying to hide usage. I know someone said something on this matter in previous days w MS on stand by Sachat?
Just FYI: I watched the HBO series years ago called, The Wire and they were constantly using burner phones and or switching SIM (I think) to stay one step ahead of LE. Storyline was cops vs drug dealers, gangs. Series took place in early 80's Baltimore when Cell phones were fairly new? And how LE were learning how to combat this new technology for survellience and or getting warrants, etc.

-- just horrifying to think he may of died within 15 min of leaving home. And for them to not think they would be caught after being seen by TB wife and tenant. I think had the wife and tenant not been outside when they arrived, it may of taken longer to find them. But key for me as evidence and how they were caught was SS father in law calling CS about truck VIN and TB cell records to Bate burner phone that lead to IT and tatto info on DM.

Just glad they were so arrogant and stupid that they left a mountain of evidence, IMO.

I'm not sure how the phone signals work but IIRC from the Michael Rafferty trial, they were about to distinguish between when the phone was turned off and then the battery was taken out. There was no pinging when the battery was out.

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[ILoveDateline]

They are an exhibit.

Where can I find them? TIA

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[andreww]

In the simplest of terms ...

It is a fact that both DM and MS admit that their intent was only to steal that truck.

It is a fact that at least one loaded weapon accompanied them in order to steal the truck.

It is a fact that DM and MS left with Tim in the truck.

It is a fact that Tim was murdered and incinerated during the commission of the theft of that truck.

Discounting the abundance of other evidence, and reasonably speaking, what is the most probable conclusion one can come to here?

Is it most probable that Tim would have ever felt free to leave that truck?

I think not.

(In order to prove forcible confinement, there does not need to be proof of being physically restrained.)

MOO



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The crown went with premeditation, the forcible confinement point is moot.


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[Lexiintoronto]

Once one, or both of them pulled out a gun, would that not constitute forcible confinement ? IMO

I don't have a legal background, but I don't think the mere act of pulling out a gun constitutes forcible confinement.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I don't have a legal background, but I don't think the mere act of pulling out a gun constitutes forcible confinement.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that a weapon does constitute forcible confinement but in any case there is this:
"A person who voluntarily enters into a car, but is then denied the ability to leave will usually make out the offence.

Where consent was obtained by fraud, deceit, or trickery, then the consent is not valid.

There must be proven that there was at least a minimal deprivation of the victim's freedom."

https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Law/Offences/Kidnapping_and_Unlawful_Confinement

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[Lexiintoronto]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that a weapon does constitute forcible confinement but in any case there is this:
"A person who voluntarily enters into a car, but is then denied the ability to leave will usually make out the offence.

Where consent was obtained by fraud, deceit, or trickery, then the consent is not valid.

There must be proven that there was at least a minimal deprivation of the victim's freedom."

https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Law/Offences/Kidnapping_and_Unlawful_Confinement

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Thank you for that, that may explain the charge as well - it wasn't a test drive they were on, not the true reason TB was there.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The crown went with premeditation, the forcible confinement point is moot.


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Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ... It is definitely one of the possibilities that can lead to a 1st degree murder indictment/conviction in Canada.

Could you please tell me where I can read about this being dropped? Thank you.


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[redheart]

They are an exhibit -- #144.

Thanks, off to look for it.

 

[Just4TB]

Thanks, off to look for it.

Good luck. I believe the media collaborated and did not publish that exhibit

 

[redheart]

Good luck. I believe the media collaborated and did not publish that exhibit

Hmmm, yes - I can't find anything. I thought the rest of the messages from that day had been published, but maybe not.

The other time some of the media didn't publish something was the video showing the lighting of the incinerator. Some media did, some didn't. The ones that didn't stated that they weren't and that it was out of respect for the Bosmas. So why the silence on these pictures, if that's the case here? (Not arguing with you, just trying to figure this out.)

 

[billandrew]

I've expanded my timeline to include as many texts and other evidence as I could find going back to February 9, 2012. Nearly 225 rows were added today.

Some interesting points:

• On April 15, 2012, Millard texted Smich, "five fingered you some practice ammo", which was followed by a conversation about .380 vs 9 mm ammo. This implies that a gun was intended to be used by Smich since Millard got the ammo for him.
• On May 28, 2012, in the midst of Millard getting Schlatman to build a homemade incinerator, Millard texted Smich, "we go [to] incinerator, cool?" And Smich replied, "Yo I'm down bro." This suggests that the incinerator had some importance to both of them.
• On July 7, 2012, just a few days after Laura Babcock is alleged to have been murdered, Smich wrote rap lyrics about his "380 is no stranger, when I'm angered you're in danger." The jury in this trial cannot speculate on Babcock, but the rap lyrics on their own tie Smich to the same type of gun that was allegedly used to kill Bosma.
• On August 20, 2012, during a text conversation about prepping for their missions, Smich stated that he was going to see Isho the following day. The context suggests that seeing Isho had some relation to the mission prep, and based on other evidence Isho is known to have supplied gun(s) and ammo in this case.
• On September 5, 2012, Millard texted Smich about getting together and moving the BBQ back into the barn. Later that evening, they took a video of the incinerator hitched up to the Yukon in the Millardair hangar. With no questions from Smich about moving the BBQ together, one might speculate that they had recently used it for something (sinister or not). At the very least, it shows that Smich had a prior association with the incinerator, and that he knew very well what "BBQ" meant.
• On September 12, Millard and Isho discussed a 380 gun and Isho said it was possible he could get it by the weekend. This is 7 months after DM had already acquired a 380 from Isho. Then on September 22, Millard sent Noudga a photo (different from the February 2014 photo) of a gun resembling a Walther PPK. This is strong evidence of a second gun IMO.

This is but some of the evidence tying Smich to the murder tools (incinerator, gun, ammo, etc.) in this case. His prior association with these things, combined with the very close, intimate and trusting relationship between him and Millard, makes me pretty sure that he must have had some involvement in planning the murder of May 6, 2013. Now add in the following:

• His love of "search and destroy"
• His photos of the sausages and fireside furniture
• His violent messages to Millard a few weeks before Bosma ("they should have called me MERK...no fun and games til someone's hurt")
• His references to "fireworks" in the days before Bosma's murder

At this point, I'm almost convinced that he's aware of a murder about to take place. Now add in:

• His apparent willingness to help clean up after the murder
• His celebratory mood in the truck with Meneses
• His never going to the police
• His never showing any sign of panic until he knew the police were onto him
• His own testimony, which given the timing could have been formulated to fit the evidence, yet it still contains many holes and directly contradicts several other witnesses' testimony, many of whom did not have an incentive to lie about those facts in this case.

My personal verdict? Smich is guilty as charged.

 

[Mscree]

It's speculation to assume what "jobs" MS was made to do. AJ testified he was working at the hanger doing nothing hanger related and didn't ask questions. MM cleaned toilets. SS was his lackie, built a generator. Showed him some mechanic stuff.

I don't see where there is evidence that MS looked for the generator? That was DM and SS text. I don't see evidence that MS was involved in the vehicle swap beforehand. That was Javier and DM.

Again, I see DM all over it. I see no actual proof MS. A few texts that can be taken out of context and some online searches that others did as well. Moo

I never said ms looked for a generator. Still I'm entitled to my opinion you to yours. I see first degree in the end we will see what the jury decides

 

[canadiangirl]

I never said ms looked for a generator. Still I'm entitled to my opinion you to yours. I see first degree in the end we will see what the jury decides

Yes you definitely are. I've enjoyed discussing with you.

 

[Mscree]

Was I there? How am I to know for sure? How do you know for sure? IIRC both MS and AM testified about a BBQ that week. DM had AM invite the girls. I don't hold any validity that sausage pics meant anything more then that. There is no evidence to support my theory or yours. IMO. The fact it was briefly mentioned and nothing more came of it makes it a moot point

. hey they did say they had bacon not sausage
If that helps and it was part of the testimony😀

 

[ILoveDateline]

I've expanded my timeline to include as many texts and other evidence as I could find going back to February 9, 2012. Nearly 225 rows were added today.

Some interesting points:

• On April 15, 2012, Millard texted Smich, "five fingered you some practice ammo", which was followed by a conversation about .380 vs 9 mm ammo. This implies that a gun was intended to be used by Smich since Millard got the ammo for him.
• On May 28, 2012, in the midst of Millard getting Schlatman to build a homemade incinerator, Millard texted Smich, "we go [to] incinerator, cool?" And Smich replied, "Yo I'm down bro." This suggests that the incinerator had some importance to both of them.
• On July 7, 2012, just a few days after Laura Babcock is alleged to have been murdered, Smich wrote rap lyrics about his "380 is no stranger, when I'm angered you're in danger." The jury in this trial cannot speculate on Babcock, but the rap lyrics on their own tie Smich to the same type of gun that was allegedly used to kill Bosma.
• On August 20, 2012, during a text conversation about prepping for their missions, Smich stated that he was going to see Isho the following day. The context suggests that seeing Isho had some relation to the mission prep, and based on other evidence Isho is known to have supplied gun(s) and ammo in this case.
• On September 5, 2012, Millard texted Smich about getting together and moving the BBQ back into the barn. Later that evening, they took a video of the incinerator hitched up to the Yukon in the Millardair hangar. With no questions from Smich about moving the BBQ together, one might speculate that they had recently used it for something (sinister or not). At the very least, it shows that Smich had a prior association with the incinerator, and that he knew very well what "BBQ" meant.
• On September 12, Millard and Isho discussed a 380 gun and Isho said it was possible he could get it by the weekend. This is 7 months after DM had already acquired a 380 from Isho. Then on September 22, Millard sent Noudga a photo (different from the February 2014 photo) of a gun resembling a Walther PPK. This is strong evidence of a second gun IMO.

This is but some of the evidence tying Smich to the murder tools (incinerator, gun, ammo, etc.) in this case. His prior association with these things, combined with the very close, intimate and trusting relationship between him and Millard, makes me pretty sure that he must have had some involvement in planning the murder of May 6, 2013. Now add in the following:

• His love of "search and destroy"
• His photos of the sausages and fireside furniture
• His violent messages to Millard a few weeks before Bosma ("they should have called me MERK...no fun and games til someone's hurt")
• His references to "fireworks" in the days before Bosma's murder

At this point, I'm almost convinced that he's aware of a murder about to take place. Now add in:

• His apparent willingness to help clean up after the murder
• His celebratory mood in the truck with Meneses
• His never going to the police
• His never showing any sign of panic until he knew the police were onto him
• His own testimony, which given the timing could have been formulated to fit the evidence, yet it still contains many holes and directly contradicts several other witnesses' testimony, many of whom did not have an incentive to lie about those facts in this case.

My personal verdict? Smich is guilty as charged.

Wow, great work!

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[Dutchman]

There does seem to be a lot of glow on the back of TB s truck.

 

[Ashley96]

Okay I'm quoting my own post to admit I have to be missing something. For so many to be so convinced murdering Tim Bosma was pre-planned by both DM and MS, what is your bullet list of evidence taken as a whole that got you there?

For me? First I took the idea of 'poor Mark' (duped by Millard) and his testimony out of the whole issue
reasons?
1. Self-serving testimony that revealed little or no new info on how HE was guilty (that wasn't already backed up by other evidence)
2. memory was VERY selective and not usually forthcoming (pretty good at remembering details from past (eg. employment, employer, what Marlene had with her when she left home) but recalls very little that has to do with the crime that hasn't already been evidenced in the trial...doesn't even want to guess how long the spade was (used to bury the gun)..or what Millards last convo with him was when heat was closing in)

so then I have Millard (guilty via soooo much evidence) and a second guy who is with him
I looked at:
1. The texts between them....they were obviously close buds...talked a lot about a lot including the BBQ...what strikes me especially is how the tone or friendliness doesn't change at all through the whole thing...He still asks Millard to chill with him after the murder.
2. This second individual claims to have NO IDEA about a gun or the possibility of violence on this mission...and yet he his able to change the licence plate, drive to the farm, cut bloody carpet and seatbelts with a bum shoulder, wash all the blood from the truck and do this knowing a human being who he was sitting with a few hours ago...whose wife he met in the driveway was just brutally murdered and burned...I find this so incredibly unbelievable...that he just 'went along'.

I picture an unknowing petty thief/artist in that situation, and I can see him freaking out...swearing at Millard...or in shock, unable to even function...but after presumably seeing his first murdered human being, his hands don't shake while changing the licence plate, or driving to the farm, or closing the gate or cleaning up the blood and truck and remains. He doesn't feel queasy at the sight of Tim's blood or his body, he goes home afterwards and sleeps (no waking up in a cold sweat, no nightmares...just sleep) and in the days that follow, he reaches out to Millard...asks for updates...prepares for the wedding...unbelievable behaviour for someone who had NO IDEA any violence was going to happen that night and witnessed all that he had. If it's denial, you don't ask for updates....if it's fear, you don't initiate conversations..if it's planned, you do both.
3. His own gf, who knew him very well...who would presumably know if he was faking (with him 24/7), testifies that this man was happy and said the mission went well.

There is lots of other evidences, but I guess those are the ones that come first to my mind. There is (outside the juryroom) the knowledge that there is enough evidence against him for LB's murder to bring him to trial...this tells me that this is not the first heinous violent crime he has ever been exposed to...the gun was bought for a purpose and while there was a time when I wondered if he truly was innocent in knowing about the murder/burning, for me I just go back to those evidences and there is not a reasonable doubt in my mind that he is guilty of 1st degree