Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[XiolaBlueX]

I wanted to ask you & ABro what your impression of MS is, having been in the courtroom. (Or anyone else who might have attended the proceedings.)

Hi Lexi. Let's hope nobody jumps all over me for answering honestly, haha, here goes. This is my opinion.
I have been closely following this case for the past few years, and seeing MS testify I was so surprised by how much more 'likeable' and credible he came off than I expected. More of a sympathetic character. I heard many other other people there saying the same thing. Note: Towards the cross examination by crown though, people did seem to get pulled back to the grim realty of how much he was involved, at minimum.
He was very "yes sir, no sir, I don't agree sir, as I said sir" and for the most part even keeled. He didn't come off to me like a sociopath to me, (and yes, I've known a few, and I am aware that they blend in with non sociopaths and fool people all the time, etc etc. Yes I know that I can't know that from just watching him testify....) but he just didn't.
He looks very different now, more clean cut, with hair that is grown out a bit and parted at the side. More preppy but plain type clothes. He did say a few times that he was foolish back then, and that he did a lot that he wouldn't do today. That many lives have been ruined due to DM. At first I thought he wasn't very bright, but eventually I was really surprised by how consistent he was in sticking to his versions of things. ( And no, I don't believe stories such as he buried the gun)
when they showed the rap video though it really was like a different person. The shaved head, tone, bloodshot and glassy eyes, slight slur, street talk (offensive words). I could picture that MS hypothetically robbing somebody, etc.
Overall, it's been very difficult for me to reconcile the MS I saw and heard testifying with planning an innocent persons murder for a truck. Do I feel that MS was involved in a real time robbery/carjacking? Yes. Do I think that he was very careful to lie and construct certain stories to not self incriminate him self in a way that's compatible with 1st degree murder (including forcible confinement) Yes I think he lied about several things to avoid incriminating himself to the most severe charges/consequences.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Hi Lexi. Let's hope nobody jumps all over me for answering honestly, haha, here goes. This is my opinion.
I have been closely following this case for the past few years, and seeing MS testify I was so surprised by how much more 'likeable' and credible he came off than I expected. More of a sympathetic character. I heard many other other people there saying the same thing. Note: Towards the cross examination by crown though, people did seem to get pulled back to the grim realty of how much he was involved, at minimum.
He was very "yes sir, no sir, I don't agree sir, as I said sir" and for the most part even keeled. He didn't come off to me like a sociopath to me, (and yes, I've known a few, and I am aware that they blend in with non sociopaths and fool people all the time, etc etc. Yes I know that I can't know that from just watching him testify....) but he just didn't.
He looks very different now, more clean cut, with hair that is grown out a bit and parted at the side. More preppy but plain type clothes. He did say a few times that he was foolish back then, and that he did a lot that he wouldn't do today. That many lives have been ruined due to DM. At first I thought he wasn't very bright, but eventually I was really surprised by how consistent he was in sticking to his versions of things. ( And no, I don't believe stories such as he buried the gun)
when they showed the rap video though it really was like a different person. The shaved head, tone, bloodshot and glassy eyes, slight slur, street talk (offensive words). I could picture that MS hypothetically robbing somebody, etc.
Overall, it's been very difficult for me to reconcile the MS I saw and heard testifying with planning an innocent persons murder for a truck. Do I feel that MS was involved in a real time robbery/carjacking? Yes. Do I think that he was very careful to lie and construct certain stories to not self incriminate him self in a way that's compatible with 1st degree murder (including forcible confinement) Yes I think he lied about several things to avoid incriminating himself to the most severe charges/consequences.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It is always fascinating to hear perspectives from those of you who have attended court.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[canadiangirl]

Long time listener, first time caller.

I know others have alluded to the MWJ (Big Iisho/Krucifix, now Squishy) connection, I just want to expand on it a bit further.

IMO, the “These are coming to get me… These guys don’t f–k around, they’re gonna come get me.” is about him and his crew.

MWJ and MS allegedly "attended St. Thomas More Elementary in Mississauga" together.
(http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?246816-Matthew-Ward-Jackson/page21)

Also:
"I dunno. If I were in a situation where I had to rat on MWJ in order to save my bacon, I would be very, very scared.
MWJ has too many close buddies who own guns and don't abide by the law.
LE could throw MWJ in jail for the rest of his days, and I would be watching my back until the end of mine...which, going by the stuff I have seen in people's social media accounts, would come rather sooner than I would like."
.... "If I were DM, MS or CN, especially CN, I would be terrified."
(http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?246816-Matthew-Ward-Jackson/page14)

I'm sure this is why he can't remember wear the gun is, as many others have mentioned. Didn't CN wear red shoes her first day in court?


(modsnip)

Just wanted to give a quick shout out to Billandrew, you're the man buddy. Great stuff!

ALL JMO

Great first comments.. Welcome!

I'm not sure I remembered the link between MS and MWJ. Or maybe I forgot. Either way it's interesting their history goes so far back.

Can I ask your opinion on why you think especially CN should be terrified? Also the reference to her red shoes. What are your thoughts?

All interesting. Thanks again!

 

[ArianeEmory]

Yep, I understand what you are saying, and know that 'dead weight' is harder to lift/move. However, I can't be too sure how much of a bean pole, or how much lean muscle mass he may or may not have had a few years ago. Anyhow, not to be too graphic, I'm imagining it would be a lot easier for one person to drag the 170 lbs if the victim was being moved (in a tarp possibly) from the tailgate/box of truck to the incinerator (I haven't pulled up the specifications right now, just speculating) as it would be closer in height. However........ Still leads me back to it then likely needing two people to transfer TB into the tailgate/truck box in the first place then. Imo only.

Two words: fireman's carry.

They move unconscious people all the time.

DM looked fit and healthy in most of his Mohawk era pictures.

I still think they both moved the body, I just disagree it would be a superhuman feat for one of them alone.

 

[saulgoodman]

Great first comments.. Welcome!


Can I ask your opinion on why you think especially CN should be terrified? Also the reference to her red shoes. What are your thoughts?

This makes sense

08/08/2014


MWJ's California links are the producer of his future hit "Red Shoes", and the founders of the car club he has tattooed on the back of his head "Luxurious"

 

[canadiangirl]

MWJ's California links are the producer of his future hit "Red Shoes", and the founders of the car club he has tattooed on the back of his head "Luxurious"

Yes I knew about the red shoes video but thought there might be more...

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Hi Lexi. Let's hope nobody jumps all over me for answering honestly, haha, here goes. This is my opinion.
I have been closely following this case for the past few years, and seeing MS testify I was so surprised by how much more 'likeable' and credible he came off than I expected. More of a sympathetic character. I heard many other other people there saying the same thing. Note: Towards the cross examination by crown though, people did seem to get pulled back to the grim realty of how much he was involved, at minimum.
He was very "yes sir, no sir, I don't agree sir, as I said sir" and for the most part even keeled. He didn't come off to me like a sociopath to me, (and yes, I've known a few, and I am aware that they blend in with non sociopaths and fool people all the time, etc etc. Yes I know that I can't know that from just watching him testify....) but he just didn't.
He looks very different now, more clean cut, with hair that is grown out a bit and parted at the side. More preppy but plain type clothes. He did say a few times that he was foolish back then, and that he did a lot that he wouldn't do today. That many lives have been ruined due to DM. At first I thought he wasn't very bright, but eventually I was really surprised by how consistent he was in sticking to his versions of things. ( And no, I don't believe stories such as he buried the gun)
when they showed the rap video though it really was like a different person. The shaved head, tone, bloodshot and glassy eyes, slight slur, street talk (offensive words). I could picture that MS hypothetically robbing somebody, etc.
Overall, it's been very difficult for me to reconcile the MS I saw and heard testifying with planning an innocent persons murder for a truck. Do I feel that MS was involved in a real time robbery/carjacking? Yes. Do I think that he was very careful to lie and construct certain stories to not self incriminate him self in a way that's compatible with 1st degree murder (including forcible confinement) Yes I think he lied about several things to avoid incriminating himself to the most severe charges/consequences.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. & interesting insight on how he appeared on the stand.

Overall, it's been very difficult for me to reconcile the MS I saw and heard testifying with planning an innocent persons murder for a truck

I felt torn the same way by just reading his testimony and news coverage. But like you said, the cross from the Crown pulled me back to the grave reality of what he did to TB.

 

[JuneBug67]

If he knew LE was coming after him, and the devices were crappy anyways he had more then enough time which makes me wonder why he didn't destroy them.

People generally don't realize that when they delete stuff it's not really gone. He probably thought the phones were clean. And while it's absolutely possible that he lost or destroyed his SIMs to attempt to hide evidence he thought might be there, I always suspected that ditching the SIMs, if that's what happened, might have been part of his paranoid freak out when he started hiding and stopped using his phones. I suspected he thought the SIMs could be traced or tracked if they were in a phone and perhaps give away his location.

 

[deugirtni]

MS discarding his sim card(s) doesn't do anything for me in the way of proving him to have known about and participated in a plan to murder. moo. He was a self-confessed drug dealer aside from his involvement with DM. He also apparently knew MWJ. He wasn't a clean guy. He was up on charges for mischief. He was involved in numerous thefts with DM for which they had thus far escaped criminal charges. There may have been texts back and forth with MWJ's crew on what to do with the murder weapon after the fact. There are probably lots of things on his phone(s) the police may have been interested in and which, after further investigation, may have led to further charges for him and others. For him to dispose of something he thought might incriminate him in any number of potential ways doesn't really prove anything about knowing specifically about a murder plan. CN 'lost' her phone altogether, the one she had used during the time leading up to and after TB's murder. Personally I don't believe she 'lost' her phone at all. Again, moo.

Also, I'm not sure about this, but wasn't it said during the testimony regarding the computers at DM's residence, that MS had used it to download his phone(s) at some point? Hadn't he downloaded his phone onto his ipad? If so on either of those, wouldn't police have been able to see what had been historically downloaded even if by then deleted from the computer? So police had his actual phones, his ipad, potentially computers on which the phone(s) had been downloaded, and various other peoples' phones which had messages from MS on them. To me, it seems they had quite a bit in all of that, even without the sim card(s). moo.

ETA: Edit to add that police also had phone provider records for MS's phone(s), or at least they should/could have.

 

[deugirtni]

I wasn't sure if this had been mentioned, so thought I would mention. Is everyone aware that closing arguments are now scheduled to begin on Tuesday, rather than Wednesday this week? AC reported on his Twitter.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC [video=twitter;735835189654474753]https://twitter.com/AdamCarterCBC/status/735835189654474753[/video] They just revised the #TimBosma trial schedule - the jury will now be back on May 31 when closing arguments will begin. #Bosma #HamOnt #sc

 

[andreww]

Two words: fireman's carry.

They move unconscious people all the time.

DM looked fit and healthy in most of his Mohawk era pictures.

I still think they both moved the body, I just disagree it would be a superhuman feat for one of them alone.

The way I look at it, we know that between the two of them, TB ended up in the incinerator. Smich says he didn't help. Does it help his case any to lie about that point? We know that he had made the text about his bum shoulder several days before so this isn't an excuse, and as a weightlifter that experiences occasional shoulder pain, I can tell you it is excruciating to try to lift anything with this condition. So ya, I'll believe Smich on this detail. As for Millard lifting the body? Stand him up, bend him forward with head and arms in the incinerator opening, then lift his legs. I'm not as big as Millard and I would bet that I could handle it.

 

[andreww]

A thought - if you accept MS story as completely true - Doesn't that basically also get DM away from 1st degree murder as well? MS has DM just kind of snapping and turning into a lunatic to get the truck. That's 2nd degree murder isn't it?

Exactly. If you are going to turn a blind eye to the texts for being too ambiguous, then you have to do the same for Millard. If you are going to believe believe Smich's "scoping mission" story, you have to apply that to Millard as well. Smich says that everything was going according to plan until Millard went rogue, which doesn't seem like premeditation. Of course unless Millard always carried his gun with him, it would show premeditation that he brought his gun in the first place.

 

[Miranda16]

I'm convinced now (thanks to Bill's awesome timeline) that between DM and MS at least 3 handguns were acquired:
- in April 2012 (shortly after meeting Iisho in February), MS and DM discuss ammo for two separate guns
- on Sept 12 DM and Iisho discuss another .380

So even if WM was killed with a handgun and that handgun was confiscated by LE, that leaves 2 guns.
I think that MS and DM each had a gun on the night of TB's murder.
MS either got rid of his independently, or both guns ended up in the Toolbox (in this case MS could have legitimately been surprised to receive DM's weapon if he was only expecting drugs in the toolbox, but I think it more likely that MS willingly accepted the second one to dispose of and possibly profit from)
That's why, IMO, MS won't discuss the gun 'burial'

(another alternative would be that one gun was also disposed of after LB's murder - if it is standard practice to dispose of the weapon after a murder. But if they thought they were getting away with it, why not keep it?)

 

[canadiangirl]

Exactly. If you are going to turn a blind eye to the texts for being too ambiguous, then you have to do the same for Millard. If you are going to believe believe Smich's "scoping mission" story, you have to apply that to Millard as well. Smich says that everything was going according to plan until Millard went rogue, which doesn't seem like premeditation. Of course unless Millard always carried his gun with him, it would show premeditation that he brought his gun in the first place.

There is way more in the way of premeditation for DM. I wouldn't use his "lunatic" snap as an excuse but maybe his defense could have have.. Except that wouldn't erase him buying a gun, an incinerator and wanting the truck. Of which we presume he was of sound mind and body.

 

[canadiangirl]

I'm convinced now (thanks to Bill's awesome timeline) that between DM and MS at least 3 handguns were acquired:
- in April 2012 (shortly after meeting Iisho in February), MS and DM discuss ammo for two separate guns
- on Sept 12 DM and Iisho discuss another .380

So even if WM was killed with a handgun and that handgun was confiscated by LE, that leaves 2 guns.
I think that MS and DM each had a gun on the night of TB's murder.
MS either got rid of his independently, or both guns ended up in the Toolbox (in this case MS could have legitimate been surprised to receive DM's weapon if he was only expecting drugs in the toolbox, but I think it more likely that MS willingly accepted the second one to dispose of and possibly profit from)
That's why, IMO, MS won't discuss the gun 'burial'

(another alternative would be that one gun was also disposed of after LB's murder - if it is standard practice to dispose of the weapon after a murder. But if they thought they were getting away with it, why not keep it?)

IIRC there was also a shotgun/rifle (I don't know my guns but it was long and standing up) at Millard’s. I believe it was seen when they showed the videos with the bowl full of credit cards inside Maplegate. Anyone else remember this? I'll have to go take a look at earlier reports.

 

[andreww]

I'm convinced now (thanks to Bill's awesome timeline) that between DM and MS at least 3 handguns were acquired:
- in April 2012 (shortly after meeting Iisho in February), MS and DM discuss ammo for two separate guns
- on Sept 12 DM and Iisho discuss another .380

So even if WM was killed with a handgun and that handgun was confiscated by LE, that leaves 2 guns.
I think that MS and DM each had a gun on the night of TB's murder.
MS either got rid of his independently, or both guns ended up in the Toolbox (in this case MS could have legitimate been surprised to receive DM's weapon if he was only expecting drugs in the toolbox, but I think it more likely that MS willingly accepted the second one to dispose of and possibly profit from)
That's why, IMO, MS won't discuss the gun 'burial'

(another alternative would be that one gun was also disposed of after LB's murder - if it is standard practice to dispose of the weapon after a murder. But if they thought they were getting away with it, why not keep it?)

On a side note, it seems that when buying the guns, the fact that ammo was included seemed to be a huge selling feature. This is interesting because at the time that Smich had the gun, he was googling ammo for it. Makes me believe even more that he sold the gun back to Isho.

 

[andreww]

IIRC there was also a shotgun/rifle (I don't know my guns but it was long and standing up) at Millard’s. I believe it was seen when they showed the videos with the bowl full of credit cards inside Maplegate. Anyone else remember this? I'll have to go take a look at earlier reports.

The shotgun rumour came from a MSM report that peaked in to the home with a long lens. It was speculated that there was something that appeared to be the barrel of a shotgun leaning against a wall. To me it looked nothing like a gun, and given the fact that we know Isho sold DM that weapon, it seems highly unlikely that it would be a shotgun.

 

[Miranda16]

IIRC there was also a shotgun/rifle (I don't know my guns but it was long and standing up) at Millard’s. I believe it was seen when they showed the videos with the bowl full of credit cards inside Maplegate. Anyone else remember this? I'll have to go take a look at earlier reports.

Thanks - yes there has been some discussion about this. I'm going by the fact that MWJ/Iisho has been charged with selling WM's murder weapon to assume it was a handgun. In any case, I'm just mentioning it to say that even if they lost one handgun, it still leaves 2 available for TB's murder.

 

[andreww]

I'm convinced now (thanks to Bill's awesome timeline) that between DM and MS at least 3 handguns were acquired:
- in April 2012 (shortly after meeting Iisho in February), MS and DM discuss ammo for two separate guns
- on Sept 12 DM and Iisho discuss another .380

So even if WM was killed with a handgun and that handgun was confiscated by LE, that leaves 2 guns.
I think that MS and DM each had a gun on the night of TB's murder.
MS either got rid of his independently, or both guns ended up in the Toolbox (in this case MS could have legitimately been surprised to receive DM's weapon if he was only expecting drugs in the toolbox, but I think it more likely that MS willingly accepted the second one to dispose of and possibly profit from)
That's why, IMO, MS won't discuss the gun 'burial'

(another alternative would be that one gun was also disposed of after LB's murder - if it is standard practice to dispose of the weapon after a murder. But if they thought they were getting away with it, why not keep it?)

I agree 100%. It seems like because of the other cases that the crown was handcuffed as to what they could say about the guns. In this regard I believe Smich caught a huge break. I have no doubt in my mind that Both those guys had guns that night.

 

[billandrew]

Hi Lexi. Let's hope nobody jumps all over me for answering honestly, haha, here goes. This is my opinion.
I have been closely following this case for the past few years, and seeing MS testify I was so surprised by how much more 'likeable' and credible he came off than I expected. More of a sympathetic character. I heard many other other people there saying the same thing. Note: Towards the cross examination by crown though, people did seem to get pulled back to the grim realty of how much he was involved, at minimum.
He was very "yes sir, no sir, I don't agree sir, as I said sir" and for the most part even keeled. He didn't come off to me like a sociopath to me, (and yes, I've known a few, and I am aware that they blend in with non sociopaths and fool people all the time, etc etc. Yes I know that I can't know that from just watching him testify....) but he just didn't.
He looks very different now, more clean cut, with hair that is grown out a bit and parted at the side. More preppy but plain type clothes. He did say a few times that he was foolish back then, and that he did a lot that he wouldn't do today. That many lives have been ruined due to DM. At first I thought he wasn't very bright, but eventually I was really surprised by how consistent he was in sticking to his versions of things. ( And no, I don't believe stories such as he buried the gun)
when they showed the rap video though it really was like a different person. The shaved head, tone, bloodshot and glassy eyes, slight slur, street talk (offensive words). I could picture that MS hypothetically robbing somebody, etc.
Overall, it's been very difficult for me to reconcile the MS I saw and heard testifying with planning an innocent persons murder for a truck. Do I feel that MS was involved in a real time robbery/carjacking? Yes. Do I think that he was very careful to lie and construct certain stories to not self incriminate him self in a way that's compatible with 1st degree murder (including forcible confinement) Yes I think he lied about several things to avoid incriminating himself to the most severe charges/consequences.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Having been present for his testimony as well, I had many of the same impressions as you did about his character on the stand. The only difference is that I wasn't surprised by it. I was surprised that he testified, but I expected him to show his best form to the jury. If he had gone up and behaved like Noudga did, he would have certainly done himself in.

Having some familiarity with game theory and the dynamics of cut-throat defences, I viewed Smich's testimony as a textbook play to save himself and roast Millard. It started with Dungey introducing him to the jury by saying, "We want to give you the full picture of what happened," and then proceeding to paint him in the best light possible by highlighting positive points about his work history, his dedication to his family, and how he completed his high school education while incarcerated. They even sugar-coated it by introducing his criminal record to show that, despite how amazing of a person he is, he did get mixed up in some bad things: he sold drugs, he stole things, etc. The crux of it all was to create the impression that Smich was a petty thief who was mixed up in a bad lifestyle, but despite this he was always a good guy who would never hurt anybody. From that basis, the story he would tell about the Bosma event would be much more believable.

In the end, I am left with the impression that Smich was not a scheming manipulator like Millard was. They wouldn't have been so compatible with each other if that was true. Rather, Smich looked up to Millard and developed a strong attachment to him like so many other people did. Smich was in a bad place: he was a dropout, he was addicted to booze and cigarettes, etc., and Millard offered him the support and the opportunities to make something of himself. (Note: I find it ironic that Millard wanted to help Smich get off drugs and alcohol, but he also seemed to be his main supplier). There was a real love between them and they expressed it to each other regularly.

At some point, they discovered a mutual thrill in stealing things together. I say thrill because IMO neither of them were desperate for money the way a crack addict might hold up a convenience store. They didn't need to do the things that they did, but there was an excitement in it which became an addiction of its own. As Smich wrote to Millard, "I'm ****in hungry for a mission." There was a clear excitement in these missions, particularly on Smich's behalf despite Millard being the so-called leader. Their addiction to the thrill drove them to escalate their criminal activities over time.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions as to how far they went in pursuit of the "thrill", but in my own opinion, they both discovered a thrill in killing people. Sadly it took three murders before they got caught.