Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[JuneBug67]

Keep in mind that if guilty of the other murders they could be labeled as dangerous offenders and be kept in jail much longer , if not forever.

Dangerous Offender status does not apply to murder convictions. That status is given to people who may reach a statutory release date but are deemed too dangerous to be let out. You never have to release a murderer, so it would be redundant.

 

[palisadesk]

The law has changed since then as mentioned above, so that now the judge has the ability to issue consecutive sentences, and so of course there would be a trial for each of the 3 murders that DM is charged with.

I don't think we can assume any "of course" here. For one thing, we have no verification that a trial is in the offing for the WM murder charge. No announcement has been made. In the LB case, if both the accused are found guilty of first-degree murder in this case, it is likely the Crown will reconsider the cost of a trial and may entertain some kind of plea deal with the accused in that case. If the accused are already sentenced to life, there is no further "time" to be added to that sentence, as convicted murderers are never entitled to release. Sentences such as those in the USA for 750 years and so on are ridiculous.

Now, if the accused had been first convicted on a lesser charge (as happened in the David Snow case - you can Google it, or see a brief summary here: https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...-the-memoirs-of-an-opp-criminal-profiler.html), the Crown would proceed with a murder trial to follow. The LB case I would also expect to go to trial if either or both of the accused are acquitted (very unlikely) or convicted of a lesser offense.

But if both get the maximum sentence in this case, there would be serious thought about alternatives to proceeding with two more murder trials and other options would be considered.

 

[Juballee]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Leitch says Smich's story about Millard making up text from friend is a lie. #Bosma would've been suspicious, he says.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 57s57 seconds ago
Leitch says Bosma would have known something was wrong if they went into the field, too. #TimBosma #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 51s51 seconds ago
#TimBosma would have known this was no test drive when they pulled up to Bullmann field. He would have been on high alert. So much was odd

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Crown says if they stopped at Yukon where "friend" was parked, Tim would have seen through window there was no friend.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 1m1 minute ago
"Tim would have seen there was no friend in the front seat of the Yukon." #TimBosma #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 57s58 seconds ago
Leitch says #Bosma would've thought the night was sketchy the same way Sharlene did. The late arrival, Smich's demeanour.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
#Bosma would also have thought things were odd. They came 2 hours late, awfully late for a test drive, walked up drive, etc.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Leitch says he would've been on "high alert." He would've seen there was nobody in the Yukon and would've ended the test drive. #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 35s35 seconds ago
Leitch says the presence of Millard's satchel is another convenient piece that explains how Smich had never seen the gun that night. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 34s34 seconds ago
Smich said Millard got out of Bosma truck and saw "what looked to be a gun" being put in Millard's satchel. No evidence of satchel.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 16s16 seconds ago
How could Millard have shot #TimBosma while he was driving? Leitch describes how difficult that would be

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 42s42 seconds ago
Smich says he saw Millard put gun in satchel. But no one else reported seeing the satchel that night. #TimBosma



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Respectfully snipped for space, bolded by me, and thanks to Kamille for posting the tweets from the closing. I don't know how to change the colour back to black now, sorry.


It appears to me that although to the crown says it doesn't matter which one actually killed Tim, they seem to have made up their mind on which one actually did it after listening to MS's testimony.

I would say that they believe DM's purse was in the Yukon with Pedo, and if the gun was in the purse, he wouldn't have been able to stop and get it without Tim knowing something was wrong. MS was the only one with a way to conceal a gun when they approached the house, and the only one with two eyes and hands free to hold the gun and commit the act on the test drive.
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[Sillybilly]

... If the accused are already sentenced to life, there is no further "time" to be added to that sentence, as convicted murderers are never entitled to release

[...]

But if both get the maximum sentence in this case, there would be serious thought about alternatives to proceeding with two more murder trials and other options would be considered.

For multiple murders, the parole ineligibility period can be extended (i.e. Travis Baumgartner, killed 3 people, was sentenced in accordance with the 2011 Protecting Canadians by Ending Sentence Discounts for Multiple Murders Act and is ineligible to apply for parole until he has served 40 years.)

 

[brightii]

You asked a question, a good question for clarification for yourself and perhaps other members.
No need for apologies.
I enjoy reading your posts and your thoughtful questions.
You are a valued member here. .

I really appreciate your kind message, Wysteria. Thank you!

 

[brightii]

I think the jury will convict both accused of 1st degree murder. I can't imagine an acquittal is possible for either, and I hope I'm right about that. I don't want either accused set free to live in the community again.

Would you trust either accused to be in the community or directly in your presence or that of your loved ones, neighbours, colleagues? I would never trust either of them. What happened to TB (and most likely LB and WM) could easily happen to others if these two were let loose again in the future. I'm actually scared of them both, and especially scared of DM. It's not hard for me to imagine that he could create havoc in the world even when he's physically locked up for life behind bars.

Both accused will cross paths when serving their sentences in prison with other dangerous criminals who, if/when released, could assist either of the accused killers to harm or even kill others who DM and/or MS may think betrayed them and are responsible for their convictions. I would never feel safe in the world if I knew either accused and had testified at trial.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

I don't think we can assume any "of course" here. For one thing, we have no verification that a trial is in the offing for the WM murder charge. No announcement has been made. In the LB case, if both the accused are found guilty of first-degree murder in this case, it is likely the Crown will reconsider the cost of a trial and may entertain some kind of plea deal with the accused in that case. If the accused are already sentenced to life, there is no further "time" to be added to that sentence, as convicted murderers are never entitled to release. Sentences such as those in the USA for 750 years and so on are ridiculous.

Now, if the accused had been first convicted on a lesser charge (as happened in the David Snow case - you can Google it, or see a brief summary here: https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...-the-memoirs-of-an-opp-criminal-profiler.html), the Crown would proceed with a murder trial to follow. The LB case I would also expect to go to trial if either or both of the accused are acquitted (very unlikely) or convicted of a lesser offense.

But if both get the maximum sentence in this case, there would be serious thought about alternatives to proceeding with two more murder trials and other options would be considered.

It's difficult for me to imagine an atmosphere in which LB would not be tried unless the facts supporting first degree murder are weak and they accept a guilty plea for a lesser charge.There is already sensitivity around the shoddy initial investigation, and given the attention on missing and murdered women federally I just don't see how the province would willing to do this. It would just look so terrible.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think we can assume any "of course" here. For one thing, we have no verification that a trial is in the offing for the WM murder charge. No announcement has been made. In the LB case, if both the accused are found guilty of first-degree murder in this case, it is likely the Crown will reconsider the cost of a trial and may entertain some kind of plea deal with the accused in that case. If the accused are already sentenced to life, there is no further "time" to be added to that sentence, as convicted murderers are never entitled to release. Sentences such as those in the USA for 750 years and so on are ridiculous.

Now, if the accused had been first convicted on a lesser charge (as happened in the David Snow case - you can Google it, or see a brief summary here: https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...-the-memoirs-of-an-opp-criminal-profiler.html), the Crown would proceed with a murder trial to follow. The LB case I would also expect to go to trial if either or both of the accused are acquitted (very unlikely) or convicted of a lesser offense.

But if both get the maximum sentence in this case, there would be serious thought about alternatives to proceeding with two more murder trials and other options would be considered.

I don't agree with that, because in the pig farmer's case, when they decided not to pursue additional murder charges, it was for more of the same, and the killer had already been convicted of I forget if it was 7 murders? Even though there were many many others, they already had him guilty on those. In this case, it is different circumstances, and they are going to have to prove their case all over again. What if they were found guilty in this TB case, and then they appealed and got off? I feel like since our laws changed, the cases will have to now be pursued through the court system, because now it makes a difference, where before, the maximum the murderer could get was one life sentence with parole eligibility after a minimum of 25 years. Our new law is going to save the families of the victims from having to appear in court over and over again, each time the murderer applies for parole after the 25 years is up.

In regard to WM's case, there obviously must have been a pub ban on the outcome of the preliminary hearing, or it would have been published in the news. I doubt if they would have pub banned it if the outcome was 'not enough evidence to proceed to trial'. The obvious is that there was indeed enough evidence to send DM to trial for murdering his dad and they did not want to risk wind of that case getting to the jury to potentially taint the outcome of this case. I expect we will hear about that one very soon.

That is great that Canada avoided another huge cost in pursuing more murders by pigfarmer, but if our newer law mentioned above had been in effect at *that* time, I think they would have had to pursue all of his murders, since it would have made a difference for him as well.

All moo.

 

[Redwing]

I think the jury will convict both accused of 1st degree murder. I can't imagine an acquittal is possible for either, and I hope I'm right about that. I don't want either accused set free to live in the community again.

Would you trust either accused to be in the community or directly in your presence or that of your loved ones, neighbours, colleagues? I would never trust either of them. What happened to TB (and most likely LB and WM) could easily happen to others if these two were let loose again in the future. I'm actually scared of them both, and especially scared of DM. It's not hard for me to imagine that he could create havoc in the world even when he's physically locked up for life behind bars.

Both accused will cross paths when serving their sentences in prison with other dangerous criminals who, if/when released, could assist either of the accused killers to harm or even kill others who DM and/or MS may think betrayed them and are responsible for their convictions. I would never feel safe in the world if I knew either accused and had testified at trial.

All MOO.

Your post is important. The community must be protected. If not TB that night, surely others would have lost their lives by now

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

It's difficult for me to imagine an atmosphere in which LB would not be tried unless the facts supporting first degree murder are weak and they accept a guilty plea for a lesser charge.There is already sensitivity around the shoddy initial investigation, and given the attention on missing and murdered women federally I just don't see how the province would willing to do this. It would just look so terrible.

Just jumping off your post to add......

It would be a little hard naming someone a serial killer or a multiple murderer if you only ever tried the first one in court. (Assuming there was no confession.) JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Respectfully snipped for space, bolded by me, and thanks to Kamille for posting the tweets from the closing. I don't know how to change the colour back to black now, sorry.


It appears to me that although to the crown says it doesn't matter which one actually killed Tim, they seem to have made up their mind on which one actually did it after listening to MS's testimony.

I would say that they believe DM's purse was in the Yukon with Pedo, and if the gun was in the purse, he wouldn't have been able to stop and get it without Tim knowing something was wrong. MS was the only one with a way to conceal a gun when they approached the house, and the only one with two eyes and hands free to hold the gun and commit the act on the test drive.
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I agree. The alternative, of course, is if they shot him in the field while both were still together. In the field, it's hard for me to imagine that they couldn't both together have gotten TB out of the truck and avoided destroying the inside. Unless somebody *advertiser censored**d up and shot too soon.

 

[Variant]

Respectfully snipped for space, bolded by me, and thanks to Kamille for posting the tweets from the closing. I don't know how to change the colour back to black now, sorry.


It appears to me that although to the crown says it doesn't matter which one actually killed Tim, they seem to have made up their mind on which one actually did it after listening to MS's testimony.

I would say that they believe DM's purse was in the Yukon with Pedo, and if the gun was in the purse, he wouldn't have been able to stop and get it without Tim knowing something was wrong. MS was the only one with a way to conceal a gun when they approached the house, and the only one with two eyes and hands free to hold the gun and commit the act on the test drive.
[/COLOR][/INDENT]

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DM owned a concealment holster he bought from eBay specifically to hold the Walther. Quite possible that DM was wearing it, and it is marketed for concealment under light clothing and for easy withdrawal of the gun even when sitting.

No need for MS to carry or try to conceal the weapon.

It's possible for DM to shoot while driving or any time he stopped the truck along the route.

 

[JuneBug67]

DM owned a concealment holster he bought from eBay specifically to hold the Walther. Quite possible that DM was wearing it, and it is marketed for concealment under light clothing and for easy withdrawal of the gun even when sitting.

No need for MS to carry or try to conceal the weapon.

It's possible for DM to shoot while driving or any time he stopped the truck along the route.

I hadn't heard this before. Was this a sleuther thing?

 

[Variant]

I hadn't heard this before. Was this a sleuther thing?

ABro reported it first as I recall.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ade-ebay-purchases-from-u-s-holster-firm.html

 

[Errrr]

Sometimes, the more one thinks on something, the more confusing it gets? Can someone please lay out the sequence of events in regard to burning the seats at the farm? ie on which day, at what time, in which vehicle did they transport the seats to Ayr for burning? Afterward, did they go back to the hangar, or straight to Oakville to drop MS off and pick up CN? TIA!

I'm going off the billanddrews timeline for this. On the 7th, MS is picked up from his place and they get to the hangar about 9pm. Either MS drove the red truck to the farm then or he was dropped off there earlier. Red truck was not reported leaving the hangar though. There was not much to do at the farm without it. At 11:40pm the BBQ heads to the farm.
On the 8th it appears that DM alone heads to the hangar at 5:30am but made a stop at the farm to start a fire at 6am. Could the pile have been prepared the night before?
On the 9th, DM and MS are at the farm together between 4:30 and 6:30pm. Maybe putting burned seats back into the red truck? There is time here for cleaning the BBQ. The red truck reported to arrive at hangar about 7pm and leaves with trailer at 8:30 and heads to Toronto. Between 11:40pm and 1:00 am the next day DM and CN travel from Kleinburg to hangar, to farm. Was there time in this interval to clean (modsnip) in the dark?
I think the most likely cleaning happened during daylight on the 9th with MS. IMO

 

[JuneBug67]

ABro reported it first as I recall.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ade-ebay-purchases-from-u-s-holster-firm.html

Thanks. It's the kind of thing one might have wished was included in the trial facts. Jury really should have known this is if it was provable.

Editing to add that I wonder if this is why DM was talking about MS using his eBay account in the frame up scenarios.

 

[Juballee]

DM owned a concealment holster he bought from eBay specifically to hold the Walther. Quite possible that DM was wearing it, and it is marketed for concealment under light clothing and for easy withdrawal of the gun even when sitting.

No need for MS to carry or try to conceal the weapon.

It's possible for DM to shoot while driving or any time he stopped the truck along the route.

I have yet to see a holster that would conceal a weapon under a tee shirt. Then there would be getting it out of a hidden holster while driving.

I agree with TL, there is no way he would have been able to drive and keep a gun on someone while driving. And I agree with an earlier poster who said that if one thinks that they can drive and shoot a person at the same time, that person has likely never fired a gun.

I imagine that LE checked the roads where footage of the Ram was spotted for broken glass, and the field as well. They would have looked for spots where a truck pulled off the road and onto the shoulders. Pulling over would have given Tim a chance to escape.

MS was desperate to get his hands on the weapon to get rid of it without ever allowing for it to be recovered. It could be used to kill other people whther he gets out of jail or not. BD said MS told him it was his gun in the toolbox, and he had no reason to lie about that, unlike MS who contradicted him. The crown showed that DM didn't have his satchel and wouldn't have been able to retrieve it without arousing major suspicion in Tim. MS acted shady, hid from the witnesses and told everyone he f'ed up.

 

[Juballee]

ABro reported it first as I recall.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ade-ebay-purchases-from-u-s-holster-firm.html

So not evidence in trial? Perhaps because it could not be verified to actually be his purchase.

 

[Inspector_North]

So who initiated the gun in the toolbox from MH to MS? MS? DM?

All circumstantial evidence provided by LE and witnesses related to the gun movement put MS as the one who instructed getting the gun from MH. BD added that MS said it was his gun. MS also didn't hesitate to put DM's gun up for sale, if it was DM's gun.

MOO

 

[Variant]

I have yet to see a holster that would conceal a weapon under a tee shirt. Then there would be getting it out of a hidden holster while driving.

I agree with TL, there is no way he would have been able to drive and keep a gun on someone while driving. And I agree with an earlier poster who said that if one thinks that they can drive and shoot a person at the same time, that person has likely never fired a gun.

I imagine that LE checked the roads where footage of the Ram was spotted for broken glass, and the field as well. They would have looked for spots where a truck pulled off the road and onto the shoulders. Pulling over would have given Tim a chance to escape.

MS was desperate to get his hands on the weapon to get rid of it without ever allowing for it to be recovered. It could be used to kill other people whther he gets out of jail or not. BD said MS told him it was his gun in the toolbox, and he had no reason to lie about that, unlike MS who contradicted him. The crown showed that DM didn't have his satchel and wouldn't have been able to retrieve it without arousing major suspicion in Tim. MS acted shady, hid from the witnesses and told everyone he f'ed up.

DM as described by the witnesses was wearing more than a t-shirt.