Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #18

[MsSherlock]

.

DM's own texts prove the planning , and the planning proves premeditation

A message from the Millard phone at 7:40 p.m. May 6: "I'm on my way to a mission now. If it's a flop I'll be done in 2 hrs. If it goes .. it'll be an all nighter."

And we know it turned out to be an all nighter .... steal , kill , incinerate , strip the truck and after the (planned) all nighter he says

A message from "Kinks" (CN) at 8:26: "Still working?" Message back from Millard's phone: "Stage 1 complete, taking a respite. Not sure yet. Then later I'm gonna take a nap."

Sure sounds like a cool cucumber for a guy who's just accidentally killed someone and really messed up his prized truck. They both knew what the game plan was that night and they executed their plan without any problems whatsoever. AJ said that all of DM's trucks had the interior stripped out of them. IMHO, DM didn't care what condition the interior was in; all he wanted was the body and engine. When you're going to burn the seats regardless, having them in pristine condition or covered in blood really doesn't matter- does it?

DM and MS worked as one- truly synchronized psychopaths. They were definitely on a roll. Incinerating 2 victims in 10 months? Where was this going to stop? When MS was by DM's side, MS felt as invincible as his idol- bet it was a big shock for MS when DM got arrested. As far as the f-up? Perhaps MS was suppose to cover the VIN plate on the truck? Maybe he left his phone on too long that night? Whatever it was, IMHO, MS though he was responsible for DM getting arrested and he knew full well that the gig was up. The only thing either of them would be looking forward to was life behind bars. MOO

 

[canadiangirl]

BD testified that it was May 7th when MS said to him, 'I f'kd up'.

from AC's live blog from BD's cross by Pillay:

Thank you. I was just reviewing the information as suggested. It was the day after, not 3 days later. To add to that MS apparently told BD, MM and CN. IMO it sounds like the plan didn't go like he thought it would.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

If the intent was just to steal the truck by scaring the owner to force him out of the truck, why put bullets in the gun?

An empty gun would be just as shocking to the unsuspecting victim because he wouldn't know it was unloaded, would be extremely terrified and automatically assume it was a loaded gun, and would have exited the truck in a heartbeat.

Can't think of a single reason to load a gun with bullets unless the intent is to cause extreme physical harm or murder someone.

Can anyone else?

MOO

ETA: Sorry Swedie, I see that you posted this same question up thread. [emoji4] I wrote it before I had come to your post.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Sillybilly]

Does anyone know when it was said that the seats were to have been burned? I can see that they took the seats and carpet out at the hangar on the night of the 6th/middle of the night on the 7th. On the 7th they go and pick up MM, drop MS and MM off at MS's mother's house, MS goes to sleep. DM picks him up later, they go to the farm and move the incinerator into the barn? (When was the incinerator taken back to the farm?) According to MS's testimony, he thinks that is all that was done that night, and then on the 8th, according to MS testimony, the two men didn't get together? Then on the 9th, per MS, DM was 'back to normal', and seems they went to the farm to burn remaining stuff that was inside the red Ram? I seem to be missing when the seats got done, and also how they were transported, and why they was no blood evidence from that transport? Thank you!

<bbm>

Then it seems MS was not invited to whatever gathering was taking place at DM's Maplegate addy the night of Wednesday, May 8.

BD testified that it was May 7th when MS said to him, 'I f'kd up'.

from AC's live blog from BD's cross by Pillay:

Seems as though MS was freaked about what had occurred the night before (vs any celebration that was perceived by MM on that same date)

 

[Arnie M]

Just a question. Considering that AATF has (unsurprisingly) not been offered up as one of the possible findings of guilt in this case, does that mean that if the jury happened to believe that was what, say MS was guilty of, that he would just walk away scott free? The jury would have to find MS 'not guilty' in that case, on this charge, but then wouldn't the Crown's hands be tied as far as subsequently charging him with AATF, since in Canada, you can't be tried twice for the same crime? I am unclear on whether that law means a suspect can only be charged with the incident one time, or if the suspect can only be charged with the same charge one time, ie could he still be charged with AATF since he hadn't already been charged with that, or is the Crown SOL because they chose different charges for the same crime?

Here is the way I look at it ... (I could be wrong) .... If MS was (truly) only guilty of AATF he and his lawyer could could have pursued that angle from day one but they did not ..... it could be because MS wanted to remain loyal and not be seen as a snich .... or the crown said no to any deal making or whatever.

However by the time of the trial it was obvious no friendships or loyalties existed between the two accused and each one was trying to pin the blame on the other. Each one was trying to snitch on the other.

At this point MS has nothing to gain by remaining silent , he would not be seen as a snitch because saving his own hide in court is completely different than if he had run to police and squealed on DM or something.

At that point MS is no longer under the clutches of a crown who may have rejected any plea deals .... MS only has to convince the jury he was on a mission to steal and not to murder and he could end up with a possibly reduced sentence and at the very least the jury would appreciate the details he could provide.

It is easy to convince a jury , all you have to do is tell the truth and let them decide your fate. And even if he refused to tell where the gun was buried he could tell the jury he feared for his life because that would make him a snitch against whoever supplied the gun ... and the jury would accept that too , besides , retrieving the gun (or not) would have no bearing on the trial , nobody has ever denied the gun was used to kill TB

The moment MS took the witness stand the whole trial was in his hands and his only audience was the jury and he could have given a full and truthful confession. He had no reason not to.

Unless of course his testimony would show he was more involved than just a terrified AATF cleanup guy.

His continuous evasiveness indicates much more than AATF

Telling the truth would not have helped him so he didn't.

 

[Sillybilly]

As far as the f-up? Perhaps MS was suppose to cover the VIN plate on the truck? Maybe he left his phone on too long that night? Whatever it was, IMHO, MS though he was responsible for DM getting arrested and he knew full well that the gig was up.

<rsbm>

At the time MS said about the f-up, DM had not been arrested.

 

[Arnie M]

BD testified that it was May 7th when MS said to him, 'I f'kd up'.

from AC's live blog from BD's cross by Pillay:

I think the f'd up remark by MS was after they found TB's phone . besides it is canadagirl who brought it up , not me , ask her.

 

[Claroon]

It seems a shame that the whole gang of thieves testified to save their own butts. I would have preferred them to be in a cell somewhere eating their three squares off of plastic prison trays. It must have been difficult for the Bosma's to be in the same room as these 's and watch them enjoy the freedom that their loved one no longer has. Disgusting in fact. The testimony of all of them is not worth the paper it is written on in my opinion. The only reason they were there was to save themselves.

I don't know this for certain, but would suspect the courts and prisons are busy and overcrowded enough and space is allotted to the lowliest criminals and for those where there is sufficient evidence to make a case.

 

[Claroon]

It's hard to understand how their minds work but they might not have fully thought it through. Eg they may have thought they could seize the truck/driver on a test drive and head towards the farm, but the combination of daylight conditions, starting location, an imposing seller and Smich's hangover got in the way. They may not have thought through the risks of a daylight theft/abduction from Toronto but used that lesson to aim for an unusual-seeming night test drive with TB, closer to the farm. Lots of possibilities and unfortunately we'll never know.

And, perhaps daylight was the only time IT offered them. I suspect DM liked the writeup of the TB truck better anyhow-possibly more features.

 

[canadiangirl]

Please refer to the tweets and timelines and you will realize the unraveling of plans and *advertiser censored**ups began 3 days after they shot TB.

And "they" has to include MS because he was not able to clear himself on the witness stand so how can anyone else even begin to try .

.

I think the f'd up remark by MS was after they found TB's phone . besides it is canadagirl who brought it up , not me , ask her.

Sorry Arnie, I'm not sure what it is you're referring to? I stated MS said about *advertiser censored****g up which to me indicates something didn't go according to plan.

You told me to reference tweets and timelines for which I and others did, and it was testified the very next day on May 7, MS said about f ups. Not that they began 3 days later.

 

[Claroon]

Not that I am defending Smich, but just to represent an alternative view.

He was there that night and..... - But he didn't plan to kill but the minute he agreed to throw a person in an incinerator, was part of a murder because say TB was still alive, that would kill him. No one has proof of what exactly killed him. IMO agreeing to fetch the incinerator is agreeing to a plan
He was there on his computer checking out incinerators - We don't know for what purpose and it was not necessarily for a murder As I like to say, the proof is in the pudding.
He was there setting up meetings with the gun dealer for DM - May be he thought the gun is for bragging, target shooting, to fell "cool", but not for a murderMaybe this, maybe that, the fact is he introduced DM to the gun seller
He was there after DM bought the gun(s) taking photos - Did all those who took a picture in front of the Fat Man take part in the Nagasaki events? I have no clue what you're talking about
He was there googling about ammo for the handguns - But was it for the purpose of murdering someone? Many people google for ammunition every day. Few of them kill. enough other facts point to nefarious activity
He was there searching for the right truck - To steal? Yes to steal
He was there doing the mission prep - We don't know what his understanding of "mission" was in this caseI think those of us who have followed the tweets agree he knew very well
He was there on the dry run with Igor - Dry run of what? You call it dry run.
He was there when they drove towards Ancaster - Thousands of people drive towards Ancaster every day. Is that a crime?the drive that ended in a definite murder in this case
He was there when they walked up the driveway at Tim's place - Sure. Doesn't mean he had an intent to kill.Doesn't mean he didn't either
He was there driving the Yukon behind TB's truck - Yeah. According to him, he started with TB alive. And then yes, he doesn't deny that. May be AATF is a more suitable charge? Unless you believe as I do that once TB was in the car they both went crazy pointing guns and shot him, then he most definitely should not get off with only AATF. TB would be very angry if that were the case.
He was there to pick up the Eliminator - Same as abovePick up the eliminator with a lunatic on a dark night in a location with no lights??? Right after seeing a dead person? With a dead person in the truck?
He was there to do cleanup of one sort or another in the week that followed - Same as above
He was there to scoop up the weed and the 'thing' - For weed, he should be charged with trafficking? What is the "thing"?

Altogether, it's not that easy to accept premeditation. The jury probably will, but it's not all straightforward. Most of the points you make add very little to the overall confidence. I am not saying you are wrong, I'm saying it's not that easy to say whther he should get a life sentence for 1st degree or for AATF to murder.

IMO he aided the abettor.

Remember, if you put out dog food and when you get back the food is gone, it's highly likely the dog ate it. In this case, there was a death, it was highly likely 2 criminals who were caught were prepared to cause it.

 

[Claroon]

I have been thinking about this for days. In the middle of the nite when I can't sleep.
It does not make sense that they would plan to kill the owner in the truck.
Too serious. Too dangerous. You never know where a bullet might go.
Through a window? Through a door? Through the dash? Through your buddy?
And it makes a lot of mess.
Millard’s: “No more money bro, we take what we want at the source.”
I think this must have meant to force the owner out, take his truck, and just drive away.
Change the colour. Change serial numbers.
Who knows the difference?
I think they had no plan to kill just to steal. Murder is too foolish and way too serious.
The gun was to give the plan Back Up.
The plan got cancelled with IT.
Everyone knows Don't pull a gun on a soldier. Unless it has smooth edges.
I don't think murder was ever the intent.
Kick the owner out and just drive away.
Worst charge would be possession.
I have no doubt they were both armed.
The plan went terribly wrong.
The details don't matter.
I do think this puts both MS and DM up for M1.

The minute they decided to put a person into an incinerator, iMO, that was a plan not a cleanup. It might have been a year long plan, a 3 day plan, or even an hour-long plan since they did it an hour after the test drive started. An hour of planning is all that's needed IMO. They planned together to finish him off.

 

[canadiangirl]

IMO he aided the abettor.

Remember, if you put out dog food and when you get back the food is gone, it's highly likely the dog ate it. In this case, there was a death, it was highly likely 2 criminals who were caught were prepared to cause it.

But also remember, if you put out dog food and have TWO dogs, which one ate the dog food when you came back?

 

[Claroon]

I think the f'd up remark by MS was after they found TB's phone . besides it is canadagirl who brought it up , not me , ask her.

I agree. I think it was MS who threw the phone and when the news reported it had been found that's when he said it.

 

[billandrew]

At the time MS said about the f-up, DM had not been arrested.

This is wrong and it is based on an error on Adam Carter's behalf.

If you read the flow of all of the reporters' tweets, it becomes clear that Pillay is asking Daly about the week of May 6, and Carter incorrectly used May 6 as a point of reference.

The proper context to the "I ****ed up" comment is that it occurred the day after DM dropped MS off and MS blew past Daly without talking to him. From Clairmont's tweets:

Daly waiting for Smich to buy marijuana from him the week of May 6. Dell's truck rolls up, Smich goes straight into house, no words.

Then Marlena comes out, gives Daly his weed and he leaves. Next day sees Smich again, asks what was going on. Smich was stressed and edgy.

Smich said "I ****ed up man." Repeatedly. He was rattled and shaken. Daly had never seen him like that before.

Smich said "these n.....s are coming to get me. I ****ed up."

The date Daly was referring to should be May 10, which is the day after Millard dropped Smich off and they were panicking about Jennings's call to Crimestoppers.

 

[deugirtni]

Originally Posted by Arnie M

I think the f'd up remark by MS was after they found TB's phone . besides it is canadagirl who brought it up , not me , ask her.

I agree. I think it was MS who threw the phone and when the news reported it had been found that's when he said it.

The discovery of the cellphone came on May 9, 2013, when Bosma was the focus of an intense search — the same day his wife, Sharlene, made a gripping public appeal for help.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-bosmas-cellphone-key-moments-in-murder-probe

Hamilton Police have revealed the missing man’s cellphone was found late Thursday in an industrial area in the west end of Brantford.
“Last night, police conducted a ground search of a very large area, nothing further of Mr. Bosma’s was found,” Det.-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh said at a press conference Friday.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/10/missing-hamilton-man-tim-bosnas-cell-phone-found-in-brantford

 

[Sillybilly]

This is wrong and it is based on an error on Adam Carter's behalf.

If you read the flow of all of the reporters' tweets, it becomes clear that Pillay is asking Daly about the week of May 6, and Carter incorrectly used May 6 as a point of reference.

The proper context to the "I ****ed up" comment is that it occurred the day after DM dropped MS off and MS blew past Daly without talking to him. From Clairmont's tweets:

Daly waiting for Smich to buy marijuana from him the week of May 6. Dell's truck rolls up, Smich goes straight into house, no words.

Then Marlena comes out, gives Daly his weed and he leaves. Next day sees Smich again, asks what was going on. Smich was stressed and edgy.

Smich said "I ****ed up man." Repeatedly. He was rattled and shaken. Daly had never seen him like that before.

Smich said "these n.....s are coming to get me. I ****ed up."

The date Daly was referring to should be May 10, which is the day after Millard dropped Smich off and they were panicking about Jennings's call to Crimestoppers.

This has been clarified so many times on here but the Smich army always brings it back.

<bbm>

I am certainly not a member of a "Smich army" ... just having respectful discussion of evidence.

Do we have the time on May 10th when Smich made the comment about having f-ed up? DM wasn't arrested until later on the 10th, so just curious.

 

[billandrew]

I am certainly not a member of a "Smich Army" ... just having respectful discussion of evidence.

Do we have the time on May 10th when Smich made the comment about having f-ed up? DM wasn't arrested until later on the 10th, so just curious.

I concede that MS may have said this to Daly on May 10 before they knew DM was arrested. But it was not May 7 or 8 as some have suggested.

The essence of Daly's testimony was that he never noticed a change in MS's behavior until after DM was arrested. However, the Crown asked him to refresh his memory from the police statements. After doing so, he mentioned seeing MS get dropped off, blowing past him, and sending MM out with the his weed and telling him to scram. This most logically occurred on May 9 after they heard about the Crimestoppers call.

I deleted the Smich army remark since it was inappropriate. And it wasn't directed at you -- sorry about that. There does seem to be a constant barrage of pro-Smich sentiments on this board from some members, and it's often difficult to tell what their underlying intentions are. It's ok if 1) they don't understand the evidence, 2) they're playing devil's advocate, or 3) they're countering the mob mentality and its lack of reasoning. But an outright bias in favor of either of the accused (or against them, for that matter) and the resulting willful blindness and spreading of misinformation just ruins the discussion for those who wish to analyze the evidence objectively.

 

[deugirtni]

This is wrong and it is based on an error on Adam Carter's behalf.

If you read the flow of all of the reporters' tweets, it becomes clear that Pillay is asking Daly about the week of May 6, and Carter incorrectly used May 6 as a point of reference.

The proper context to the "I ****ed up" comment is that it occurred the day after DM dropped MS off and MS blew past Daly without talking to him. From Clairmont's tweets:

Daly waiting for Smich to buy marijuana from him the week of May 6. Dell's truck rolls up, Smich goes straight into house, no words.

Then Marlena comes out, gives Daly his weed and he leaves. Next day sees Smich again, asks what was going on. Smich was stressed and edgy.

Smich said "I ****ed up man." Repeatedly. He was rattled and shaken. Daly had never seen him like that before.

Smich said "these n.....s are coming to get me. I ****ed up."

The date Daly was referring to should be May 10, which is the day after Millard dropped Smich off and they were panicking about Jennings's call to Crimestoppers.

I'm looking back at the tweets now. I'm not certain. It seems the tweets from BD's testimony, or BD's testimony itself, jump all over the place. One time he's in MS's back yard, MS is being dropped off at his 'house' when he's whizzing by BD, later he's living at MM's sister's apartment. But MS and MM apparently moved to MM's sister's apartment a couple days before DM's arrest. To me, after reading all 3 of the tweeters, it doesn't seem clear on which day he is talking about MS whizzing past him after being let out of a truck driven by DM, and it seems it was the day after that when MS said he f'd up, and BD visited MS's 'house' and asked him what 'that was about' (the whizzing right past him the day before). But then talk of the gun was obviously from after MS had become in possession of the toolbox which wasn't until May 11th, and he was living at the apartment. BD didn't start his first of three police statements until after May 22nd, after MS was arrested, so who knows how well his mind remembered exact calendar dates?

How do we know that when MS whizzed by BD, it wasn't the morning of May 7th, when DM dropped him off at his 'house', and then BD had this 'f'd up' conversation also at his house when he visited it again on May 8th?

also from SC's tweets:

Daly waiting for Smich to buy marijuana from him the week of May 6. Dell's truck rolls up, Smich goes straight into house, no words. Apr 05, 2016

Then Marlena comes out, gives Daly his weed and he leaves. Next day sees Smich again, asks what was going on. Smich was stressed and edgy. Apr 05, 2016

Smich said "I ****ed up man." Repeatedly. He was rattled and shaken. Daly had never seen him like that before. #Bosma Apr 05, 2016

Smich knew he was in serious trouble. Apr 05, 2016

Smich said "these n.....s are coming to get me. I ****ed up." Apr 05, 2016

Daly was concerned for his friend. They lived around corner from each other. Smich deleted his Facebook account. Cut off his cell phones. Apr 05, 2016

Smich used other people's phones. He was "going underground. He was preparing to flee," suggests Pillay. Daly agrees. Smich used Daly cell. Apr 05, 2016

Smich was "jumpy." Smich took Daly's phone to balcony for privacy. Erased phone before giving it back. Daly has "no idea" who he contacted. Apr 05, 2016

.

 

[deugirtni]

I concede that MS may have said this to Daly on May 10 before they knew DM was arrested. But it was not May 7 or 8 as some have suggested.

The essence of Daly's testimony was that he never noticed a change in MS's behavior until after DM was arrested. However, the Crown asked him to refresh his memory from the police statements. After doing so, he mentioned seeing MS get dropped off, blowing past him, and sending MM out with the his weed and telling him to scram. This most logically occurred on May 9 after they heard about the Crimestoppers call.

I deleted the Smich army remark since it was inappropriate. And it wasn't directed at you -- sorry about that. There does seem to be a constant barrage of pro-Smich sentiments on this board from some members, and it's often difficult to tell what their underlying intentions are. It's ok if 1) they don't understand the evidence, 2) they're playing devil's advocate, or 3) they're countering the mob mentality and its lack of reasoning. But an outright bias in favor of either of the accused (or against them, for that matter) and the resulting willful blindness and spreading of misinformation just ruins the discussion for those who wish to analyze the evidence objectively.

Imo, there are only a small handful of people here in this conversation who openly concede there may not be enough proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict MS of first degree murder, so I'm not sure how it can be said there is a constant barrage of proSmich sentiments; I think the 'proSmich' faction gets questioned over and over and they are simply responding with their answers. moo

Where do you get the information to make the statement: "But it was not May 7 or 8 as some have suggested." Is that a fact somewhere, or is that your opinion?

Why is it ruled out that this waiting for weed didn't happen the morning of May 7th? That would certainly explain MM's forcefulness in telling him to get out of there.

from MH's tweets:

Around the time of May 6, 2013, Dungey suggests, things change. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

Going back to that time again when he was waiting outside Smich's house for weed. Dell drops him off he runs straight inside. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"He was fearful," Dungey suggests. Yup, Daly says. He sees him the next day at his house. Starts talking about being afraid. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"That's when his paranoia sets in," Dungey says--from moment he left Dellen Millard's car. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

Daly had met DM 4 or 5 times prior to May 6. Always briefly. Would see him at Mark's place. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016

"He seemed for lack of a better word, sketchy. He wore sunglasses when it was dark out. Just his behaviour, mannerisms," Daly says of DM. Apr 06, 2016

Smich on the other hand, Dungey suggests, was friendly and easy to get along with. Daly agrees. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016