Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[ABro]

I don't. It was from a case back in 2011 and some cell phone expert claimed this in some television interview. But I can't find it and he could have been wrong so I'm willing to concede that this information was a typo or some kind of error and that it was likely a ping when they were travelling through Brantford on their way to Kemira at 9:56pm.

MOO

I have heard stuff about cellphones pinging towers when they were turned off for years, and it never made any sense to me. I have a feeling it's one of those urban myths that just refuses to die.

 

[Yendys]

They did return to the farm between the hours of 4:38pm and 5:51pm on the 9th before getting the red truck (from wherever it was) and putting TB's truck in the trailer to move it to MB's. Most likely they picked up the seat frame then IMO.

MOO

I too believe that is when they picked up the burnt out seats from Tb's truck. They could easily have transported them in the back of the red Dodge - hidden by the cap. I believe they loaded Tb's truck in the black trailer and in haste left the hanger without the burnt seats, hence the u turn to collect the seats. As stated by others the time of day was sunset and the "orange" tarp they were seen carrying to the trailer could well have been green and sunset distorting the colour. I believe they were carrying out the seats at this time. The tweets are not clear - ie folded tarp carried between them. Does this mean larger object they both had to carry so small folded tarp easily carried by one person. If we go back to when LE opened the trailer IIFC the first item observed was the burnt seats inside a tarp. All MOO

 

[Kamille]

I have heard stuff about cellphones pinging towers when they were turned off for years, and it never made any sense to me. I have a feeling it's one of those urban myths that just refuses to die.

There is also the claim that LE can get cell phone companies to turn them back on remotely to try to locate missing people via their turned off phones but I've never really looked into seeing if this was possible either. Another urban legend likely because I really can't see how this would be possible? :dunno:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I too believe that is when they picked up the burnt out seats from Tb's truck. They could easily have transported them in the back of the red Dodge - hidden by the cap. I believe they loaded Tb's truck in the black trailer and in haste left the hanger without the burnt seats, hence the u turn to collect the seats. As stated by others the time of day was sunset and the "orange" tarp they were seen carrying to the trailer could well have been green and sunset distorting the colour. I believe they were carrying out the seats at this time. The tweets are not clear - ie folded tarp carried between them. Does this mean larger object they both had to carry so small folded tarp easily carried by one person. If we go back to when LE opened the trailer IIFC the first item observed was the burnt seats inside a tarp. All MOO

I can see this happening for sure. Because if they used the red truck to pick up the seats, with the cab on the back, they had to remove the seats and the cab in order to connect the trailer. So they probably put the seats, in a tarp, down in the hangar to do this and then forgot to put them in the trailer.

MOO

 

[ABro]

There is also the claim that LE can get cell phone companies to turn them back on remotely to try to locate missing people via their turned off phones but I've never really looked into seeing if this was possible either. Another urban legend likely because I really can't see how this would be possible? :dunno:

MOO

Well they have said at this trial on a number of occasions that they can track location two ways: tower pings and GPS in certain situations. So I can see how the GPS tracking might morph into LE super powers when it goes through the rumour mill.

 

[Kamille]

Well they have said at this trial on a number of occasions that they can track location two ways: tower pings and GPS in certain situations. So I can see how the GPS tracking might morph into LE super powers when it goes through the rumour mill.

I think that's the smart phones with apps that use GPS co-ordinates to run them that they may be talking about. Like some weather app for your location or something? So they say that even if the phone is off, those apps may be running in the background with GPS locating on? Or even the "find my Iphone" app? Although TB didn't use an Iphone so we know he didn't have that on his phone.

MOO

 

[palisadesk]

I have heard stuff about cellphones pinging towers when they were turned off for years, and it never made any sense to me. I have a feeling it's one of those urban myths that just refuses to die.

I know zip about cell phones pinging towers when turned off, but it is a fact that cell phones can be tracked when they are turned off. NSA, FBI and other organizations have tools to do this (and NSA does do it, pretty much worldwide).

They've been able to do this for more than a decade. However they rarely cooperate with other agencies where their data is concerned, so they would not be providing info in cases like this.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/nsa-track-off-mobiles,news-17851.html

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...one-cant-keep-nsa-tracking-its-location.shtml

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/technology/security/nsa-turn-on-phone/

NSA and CSEC (Communications Security Establishment Canada, our NSA equivalent) work closely together.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/pdf/nsa-canada-april32013.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/30/canada-nsa-stupid-john-adams_n_5419381.html

No one should think their phone is inaccessible to surveillance, whether powered down, sans battery, or otherwise offline.

 

[Kamille]

Here you go. Has anyone ever wondered why they used Tim Bosmas truck to tow the incinerator to the hanger and not the Yukon? The only reason I can think of is that DM wanted to drive the truck, and MS didn't want to drive the Yukon with a trailer...perhaps he had never done that before.
After all, towing it with the Yukon would make a lot more sense...when you are driving a stolen vehicle, you don't exactly want to attract attention, and towing an "Eliminator" with one is just plain stupid!

View attachment 90492

I do think it has to do with DM's need for control and lack of confidence in MS to get the stolen truck and/or the incinerator from point A to point B without incident.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well they have said at this trial on a number of occasions that they can track location two ways: tower pings and GPS in certain situations. So I can see how the GPS tracking might morph into LE super powers when it goes through the rumour mill.

I am sort of underwhelmed by the degree of detail that came out of the phones.

Well, there was a ridiculous amount of detail, but I was surprised that they were only able to track the phones to such general (still damning) areas.

I thought there would be more precision and more text data available.

 

[billandrew]

A phone can't ping after the power is turned off. I strongly suspect that 10:56 time is a mistake. I'm guessing the real time might be 9:56. The police use a 24 hour clock so it might have been an on-the-spot conversion resulting in an error.

I agree with the mistake theory since the 10:56pm ping was presented before the other pings, and the testimony was flowing in a more or less chronological order. After the 10:56pm ping was mentioned, some reporters went on to tweet "By just after 10:02pm Bosma's phone was off." Also, relative to Oak Park Rd, Colborne St. is back toward the Ancaster direction, so it would make sense for TB's phone to ping in that area before reaching Oak Park Rd.

On a related note, I find it odd that TB's phone would ping off a Colborne St. tower at 9:56pm. The surveillance videos show the vehicles arriving at 585 Oak Park Rd at 9:47pm, and there are several Bell towers closer to that location than any Colborne St tower. Maybe it just skipped over the closer towers. Maybe some of these towers didn't exist in 2013. Or maybe the video times are slightly off from the cell tower times.

It wasn't reported where the final pings occurred.

 

[puppyraiser]

Hindsight is 20/20, what seems stupid now to us was probably the smartest thing they could come up with then. I don't know if it's fair to judge people for not noticing. I mean, personally, I didn't pay attention to this story until I found out CN got arrested, a year after it happened. I have made her acquaintance sporadically over the years so thats why I started following the news about this story. However, I've followed other trials out of general interest for a long time. The point I'm trying to make is one never expects the people they know whether well or not to be in that situation. Plus, what we're hearing is a narrative pieced together to prove guilt. So, yes it does seem clean cut and these guys all seem like idiots (I'm talking about people like SS, CN, MM, etc.) but they are also human. Therefore, I think it's important to try to at least understand why they didn't report it or why they took the course of action that they did before jumping to a conclusion. I'm in no way defending any of them, by the way.

IMO

I don't think any of these people are dumb at all. Naive... probably to a certain degree. I guess my thoughts were more around the idea that they were all so into DM, his cars, his (supposed) money that they appear almost like followers blindly following their leader. It's pretty clear from testimony that his "entourage" did what he told them to do and to not ask questions. So, what was it about him that gave him so much power over these people?

 

[Errrr]

According to cell phone data, Tims phone wasn't tossed until AFTER these guys turned around at Bobcat. If the battery was getting really low it may have been making alert sounds drawing the attention of the thieves. It had to have been tossed by getting out of the vehicle because it was tossed in the passenger direction into the yard (which would be very difficult for a driver unless they were a professional baseball player)? In fact, trying to access an app on a low battery could trigger an automatic shut down, at least it does on my phone.

 

[Kamille]

According to cell phone data, Tims phone wasn't tossed until AFTER these guys turned around at Bobcat. If the battery was getting really low it may have been making alert sounds drawing the attention of the thieves. It had to have been tossed by getting out of the vehicle because it was tossed in the passenger direction into the yard (which would be very difficult for a driver unless they were a professional baseball player)? In fact, trying to access an app on a low battery could trigger an automatic shut down, at least it does on my phone.

Think left handed person with left hand out the driver's window, pitching an item OVER the top of the vehicle to the area to the left of the vehicle.

MOO

 

[ABro]

I know zip about cell phones pinging towers when turned off, but it is a fact that cell phones can be tracked when they are turned off. NSA, FBI and other organizations have tools to do this (and NSA does do it, pretty much worldwide).

They've been able to do this for more than a decade. However they rarely cooperate with other agencies where their data is concerned, so they would not be providing info in cases like this.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/nsa-track-off-mobiles,news-17851.html

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...one-cant-keep-nsa-tracking-its-location.shtml

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/technology/security/nsa-turn-on-phone/

NSA and CSEC (Communications Security Establishment Canada, our NSA equivalent) work closely together.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/pdf/nsa-canada-april32013.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/30/canada-nsa-stupid-john-adams_n_5419381.html

No one should think their phone is inaccessible to surveillance, whether powered down, sans battery, or otherwise offline.

Those citations don't back up your claim.

The Tom's Guide article says:

So far, Ericsson, Google, Nokia and Samsung have responded — and, as far as they know or can say, it shouldn't be possible to track powered-down cellphones.

All four companies claimed to be unaware of any exploit or vulnerability that would make tracking a powered-down phone possible, since pressing the "off" button on a phone entirely deactivates its network connectivity.

Techdirt says

The Post article doesn't explain exactly how the NSA accomplishes it, but other incidents over the past half-decade offer a few indications of how this might be done.

It goes on to discuss spyware and cases where specific phones are targeted and hacked by super spies.


Likewise CNN Money, which says a specific phone would have to be hacked.

How did they get into your phone in the first place? Here's an explanation by former members of the CIA, Navy SEALs and consultants to the U.S. military's cyber warfare team. They've seen it firsthand.

So, no, there's zero reason to believe that your cellphone, mine, or any of the ones used in this case were pinging towers after they had been turned off.

The power of this ancient myth seems to lie in the "OMG, our technology has magical powers" aspect of it.

 

[ABro]

I am sort of underwhelmed by the degree of detail that came out of the phones.

Well, there was a ridiculous amount of detail, but I was surprised that they were only able to track the phones to such general (still damning) areas.

I thought there would be more precision and more text data available.

When texts come up, they come up with the witness they were sent to. The Lisa Williams texts came up when she was on the stand. Likewise the Spencer Hussey texts. Have there been witnesses that have testified so far where you expected to see text data and didn't?

What do you mean by precision data?

 

[palisadesk]

So, no, there's zero reason to believe that your cellphone, mine, or any of the ones used in this case were pinging towers after they had been turned off.

Perhaps you misunderstood my point, which was not that phones in this case were pinging when turned off. Only that NSA and other agencies have the power to track and control phones that are turned off. The phone companies involved don't have this capacity, the NSA and its allies do.

We like to think that only "bad guys" are affected, but in fact NSA's stated objective is to "collect it all," meaning all data, from everybody. Including the bad guys, yes, but including everyone else as well.

On the matter of NSA capabilities, I think Snowden knows his stuff:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34444233

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...n-turn-mobile-phones-on-and-off-a3083416.html

(He's given a number of fairly technical but interesting lectures on the topic which can be found online. They are sobering and thought provoking and raise many questions about civil liberties, and Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?).

The spy agencies do not share their information with local police (they didn't even share their voluminous information on the 9-11 hijackers with the FBI so that preventive action could be taken), so phones in a local case are not affected by these capabilities.

But it behooves us to be aware of them.

 

[billandrew]

I'm going back through some of the early testimony in this trial. We heard from Danielle Fortier, the Rogers phone records expert, that Shane Schlatman cancelled his Rogers account and transferred his phone number to Telus on May 7, the day after TB was murdered.

With everything that we know now, is there any reason that he might have done this in relation to the events that took place? Or do you think it was just a coincidence?

 

[billandrew]

We heard that Millard's phone records were pulled on May 10. The exact time of day wasn't reported, but I assume it was done after police went to the hangar to confirm the ambition tattoo, etc. So sometime around 4pm or later.

Once they had the phone records, they could see he was present in Ancaster on May 6 and his phone followed the same path as the Bate phone. I suppose this would have been the information they needed to arrest DM for forcible confinement?

 

[napper505]

Re: Cell tracking

Ontario Provincial LE have the capability to track cell's real time if the number is known and the phone is on. I suspect Hamilton LE requested OPP LE to assist in finding TB's phone that night assuming SB gave LE the number. Inter-agency communications occur all the time. A "BOLO" was probably issued shortly after the 911 call to LE.

I went looking for Hamilton LE and OPP LE "Radio reference archive" but only 6 months of archives are kept.

Napper 505
Uniden BCD436HP user

Hamilton LE Com is now encrypted

 

[Kamille]

I'm going back through some of the early testimony in this trial. We heard from Danielle Fortier, the Rogers phone records expert, that Shane Schlatman cancelled his Rogers account and transferred his phone number to Telus on May 7, the day after TB was murdered.

With everything that we know now, is there any reason that he might have done this in relation to the events that took place? Or do you think it was just a coincidence?

I truly think this is a co-incidence. It does not affect nor prevent any tracking of his movements and we posted back then that he happened to have an unexpected day off to take care of things that he might have been putting off. The move from Rogers to Telus may have just been a cost cutting measure with the bonus of a new phone thrown in. If he was naive enough to think that LE couldn't track his movements, he might have actually changed phone numbers. We also don't know whether he was still in possession of his old phone, although if he was not, that would hinder LE's ability to retrieve actual text information between him and DM. However they continued to text after the 7th so I don't think that was an issue either.

MOO