Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[SnooperDuper]

Was this also the same day that police updated the description of one of the suspects, that he had the word "Ambition" framed in a box, tattooed on his wrist?

No that was the 10th, the day DM was arrested.

 

[ABro]

We know from the phone records that DM and MS were in TB's driveway at 9:05. A few words were exchanged, a cursory examination of the truck, then they got in and drove off.Say, 9:10.

Supersucker video showing a truck at that site at 9:05 would have had to be video of a different truck.

But 9:15 works perfectly for time for the two vehicles to pull out of the hayfield; 5-7 minutes to get there and a driver to get out and get into the Yukon. Then another 5 minutes to get to the corner of Wilson and Trinity (it can take a little longer, depending on traffic - if you're behind a slow vehicle you may not be able to pass).

So those times line up, assuming the vehicles seen by the SS video at 9:20 were the ones in question (neighbour said he saw the two vehicles go west, which doesn't fit. Although it's possible they went west and turned around, it doesn't make much sense).

Anyway, there doesn't seem a viable opportunity for a shooting in those first 15-20 minutes.

No one has the exact times for the Super Sucker video as the clock was reset before Plaxton got it. We know it was off by something pretty close to three hours, according to testimony.

SB testified the men were at her house a minute or two.

It could be a different truck passing Super Sucker but it had some of the same distinctive features of the Bosma truck, according to the expert testimony.

 

[palisadesk]

I am not a legal expert, but I am wondering if the prosecution would be able to prove kidnapping/abduction/forcible confinement in this case. TB willingly went into his truck with the 2 men, and the 2 men were invited into his truck......If MS was in fact the driver of the Yukon that evening, then I believe the Crown may have a more difficult time in proving him guilty of murder, since to date, there has been no hint to suggest that he knew in advance that a murder would be committed, and if he also was not in the truck when it occurred, they would have to prove advance knowledge, and participation in the plan that included murder.

The Crown doesn't need to prove that MS was in on a plan that included murder, just that he was party to the plan that included abduction and forcible confinement. Let's say (hypothetically) that either or both of these guys said to a pal (or girl friend) "we're gonna steal a Dodge Ram, rough up the owner, take him to a deserted area and push him out and then make off with the vehicle." No murder planned, just auto theft, but including abduction and forcible confinement, if only for a short while. Death occurring during such a heist would meet criteria for first degree murder even if no murder was planned.

That's just a possibility, I have no idea what their original plan was (I started off with the thrill kill hypothesis and now don't know what to think). But I wouldn't be surprised if MM or AM might, together or separately, shed some light on what the "plan" was. It didn't need to include murder; if they intended to hold their prisoner long enough to get away with the truck, that would be enough for kidnapping/forcible confinement.

 

[billandrew]

The immediate sequence here is what I'm having trouble with. They stashed the Yukon at the hayfield on the corner of Book Road and Trinity, a long block north of the Bosma house. However, Bullman (Day 5) says the truck and the Yukon pulling out of that field minutes later (about 5 minutes after they left Bosma house) and the two vehicles were captured on video northbound on Trinity Road approaching Wilson across from the Ancaster Fairgrounds, about 9:20 or so thus the evidence seems to be that they headed over to pick up the Yukon immediately after leaving the Bosma house, then went north on Trinity (though neighbour Bullman reportedly saw them going west on Book Road, which doesn't fit).

Hard to figure where and when the shooting took place. The video doesn't provide much wiggle room for a stop in the field, and I seriously doubt that the gun was fired in a public place. OTOH, did they manage to tell TB some story and persuade him to continue with the test drive up Trinity Road? They presumably turned west on Wilson, and there are some rather dark and lonely stretches of road between there and Brantford. Did a struggle perhaps ensue along there when TB realized this wasn't a regular test drive?

Here is the Super Sucker video timeline for your consideration:

8:46 pm Yukon driving south
9:05 pm Black pickup driving north
9:15 pm Black pickup driving south
9:20 pm Black pickup driving north, followed by Yukon

IMO the 9:05pm and 9:15pm sightings are also the Bosma truck, but the video times are slightly out of sync - say 2-3 minutes out - with the cell tower data (e.g. the Bate phone called Bosma's phone at 9:05pm, which does not line up with the 9:05pm video event).

There's a good 10 minute period between 9:05 to 9:15 where the black pickup is driving around somewhere beyond Super Sucker. I'm taking the position that TB was shot during this time. By 9:15pm, they are driving back toward the hayfield to pick up the Yukon. The neighbour's (Bullman's) sighting was not a precise time and could have easily happened between 9:15-9:20pm.

 

[Inspector_North]

I am sure the LE and crown have the evidence.

"If he knew his words were going to get me a life sentence, he would change them. Show him how he can, and he will change them."

Many of assume the person is AM, and I am sure that LE have retrieved those 'words'. It would not be wise for CN or this person to play dumb, or be uncooperative. We know that DM was really worried about this particular witness. We also know there were many letters with this theme, and I bet this will be very revealing.

 

[Ontario Mom]

As far as where they actually were when the shooting happened, I don't think we'll ever know, unless one of them confesses. That's just not going to happen (but boy wouldn't it be nice if it did??)

That said, I think it's entirely possible it all went down very, very quickly, somewhere on Trinity. Whether while driving or pulled over at Book into the field (assuming that's where the Yukon was stashed). Then they collected the Yukon and wasted no time heading out of the area as quickly as they could.

 

[Claroon]

I am not a legal expert, but I am wondering if the prosecution would be able to prove kidnapping/abduction/forcible confinement in this case. TB willingly went into his truck with the 2 men, and the 2 men were invited into his truck. To date, I believe the Crown is counting on premeditation as being the basis for the first degree charges. There is an aspect of confinement in any murder, in that usually the victim is confined in some manner so as to make him/her unable to get away, or else he/she would do exactly that and there would be no murder.


Armed robbery at the least. IMO

 

[napper505]

The "family fortune" went bankrupt in 1990. Millardair could no longer make a go of it using their small fleet of WW2 era DC-3's, R4D's, and DC-4's. They ended their days being picked for parts and being scrapped at Brantford airport in the 1990's. I remember walking the apron at Brantford a few times on Sunday lunch outings with my father, and seeing their sad state then. IIRC, Millardair also had an inactive storage hanger there.

I'm not sure what Millardair did throughout the 1990's and into the 2000's, until Carl Millard died in 2006.. but newspaper articles as i remember them indicated that Millardair was stuck in a time-warp in terms of lack of modernization during that period of time... they weren't making much in the way of money to top up the family fortunes.

MILLARD AIR/HOLDINGS were renting hanger space for an "AMO" operation, storage, delivery of commercial aircraft and business jets. I know people who worked there. I will find out when that contracted ended probably shortly before the hanger was vacated.

Napper505

 

[Claroon]

There's a good 10 minute period between 9:05 to 9:15 where the black pickup is driving around somewhere beyond Super Sucker. I'm taking the position that TB was shot during this time. By 9:15pm, they are driving back toward the hayfield to pick up the Yukon. The neighbour's (Bullman's) sighting was not a precise time and could have easily happened between 9:15-9:20pm.

[/QUOTE]

From the billandrew timeline: 9:05 pm Tim Bosma takes call and meets two men in driveway.

Add in time to walk up driveway. Then...isn't it normal for a person to look at a vehicle, make small talk, etc. before getting in to testdrive? Then add in time to check rearview mirror, etc.

IMO he was shot at 9:47 as they were slowing in front of Bobcat, just after TB or MS threw TB's phone out the window (1 min. prior) IMO their team of thieves was waiting at Bobcat--predetermined. Possibly just a dump the guy while thieves stay on lookout, and head up to the hangar to do quick truck transformation. Mission gone wrong. IMO

 

[billandrew]

IMO, TB was shot somewhere north of Super Sucker, quite possibly along Wilson St W. I have lived in this area my whole life and can attest that on a Monday evening after 9pm in 2013 there may have been no other vehicles approaching for a good distance in either direction.

Wilson St. is also very straight so you can see if anyone's coming from a long distance away. There is a lot of empty land and farm land around there, with lots of places like this or this where it would be easy to pull over and shoot somebody without being seen or heard.

IMO there is still a bullet and possibly some shattered glass lying in the dirt somewhere within a 5 minute drive of Supersucker.

 

[Claroon]

As far as where they actually were when the shooting happened, I don't think we'll ever know, unless one of them confesses. That's just not going to happen (but boy wouldn't it be nice if it did??)

That said, I think it's entirely possible it all went down very, very quickly, somewhere on Trinity. Whether while driving or pulled over at Book into the field (assuming that's where the Yukon was stashed). Then they collected the Yukon and wasted no time heading out of the area as quickly as they could.

I originally thought they stopped at the Kowasaki building nearby Ancaster (as somehow Kowasaki played in my mind.) But now, knowing the timing of the cell phone being thrown out the window, I think it was as they arrived at Bobcat. IMO

 

[Boudica]

Anyone have any theories why the stop in Brantford at the Bobcat dealer? Were they to meet someone there? Was TB shot there?

 

[hippy_chic]

It's possible TB was confined with duct tape. Chest taped to the seat, hands and feet taped. This could have happened immediately after he puts on his seat belt. MOO

I would think with limited space in the truck to maneuver while driving, & the length of time, effort & potential for struggle, all while driving, would be unlikely to duct tape someone's hands & feet, MOO.

I have wondered with all this information coming out about DM being known to keep to party drugs on hand, (who knows what assortment he had access to) if they'd possibly intended to drug TB to incapacitate him with some kind of injection drug. I'm not sure what type of drug would incapacitate someone & possibly erase their memory...maybe rohypnol? I think the street name is "roofies"? If murder wasn't in the original plan...(big IF)...maybe they were going to knock him out with drugs that would affect his ability to get help until they were long gone...& possibly affect his memory of what happened. Then perhaps something went awry...which lead to shooting TB, instead of drugging him? All my own speculation. I don't doubt that murder could have been part of the plan all along...but a plan to drug someone on a test drive & dump them somewhere remote would be the only other thing that makes sense when the victim has seen your face. MOO

 

[palisadesk]

Is it any defense for MS if he were compelled by DM to participate, e.g., if MS owed DM a debt and DM made him participate in the mission on that account? Could he argue DM was supplying him with drugs and controlling him? Is being forced, in any way, any defence?

Ah, yes. It's called the "defense of duress" and is sufficiently complicated (common law elements vs. criminal code complications) to give anybody a headache trying to understand it. In general, if a person can demonstrate they were threatened with serious bodily harm, death or harm to family (or similar extreme things), he cannot be held responsible for the crime, because what he did was "morally involuntary," i.e. he didn't will to commit the act, he was compelled to do it.

BUT, this doesn't apply in serious crimes like murder. There was a recent very interesting Supreme Court decision on a very gut-wrenching case about 2 years ago dealing with the concept of "defense of duress" and contrasting it with the justification of self-defense (which in a homicide case is a justification, not an excuse).

The Supreme Court decision was a very complex but balanced one. For people who like this sort of thing, check out the blog post here (this is a great site BTW, many informed and lucidly written commentaries on current legal issues):

http://www.thecourt.ca/2013/01/supr...aw-of-duress-ends-nicole-ryans-tragic-ordeal/

Here's what Section 17 of the Criminal Code says about the defense of duress:

Compulsion by threats
17. A person who commits an offence under compulsion by threats of immediate death or bodily harm from a person who is present when the offence is committed is excused for committing the offence if the person believes that the threats will be carried out and if the person is not a party to a conspiracy or association whereby the person is subject to compulsion, but this section does not apply where the offence that is committed is high treason or treason, murder, piracy... (long list of violent crimes)

You can see the whole thing here:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Law/Defences/Duress

But where MS is concerned, while the "defense of duress" won't get him off the hook, it might be considered a mitigating factor that, while not abrogating his responsibility, diminishes it to a degree. Legally, strictly speaking, it shouldn't affect the decision, but juries do weigh in human factors; this is, on the whole, a good thing.

 

[Errrr]

If I understand you correctly, you just need to click on his name in the top left and view his posts. Hope this helps.

I think mimimic is referring to the Google sheet with 3 reporter posts. Unfortunately it needs to be in reverse chronological order.

 

[Abitcountry]

Anyone have any theories why the stop in Brantford at the Bobcat dealer? Were they to meet someone there? Was TB shot there?

If you were on a "mission" and you and your buddies were split up between two vehicles speeding through the dark after just pulling off a heist.....you may have taken into account that two vehicles may get separated from one another enroute.....and maybe a meet up place somewhere in the designated area was selected just in case.
The Bobcat dealer was actually just about perfect....easy name to remember....close to connecting roads to run back to the farm and ultimately the hangar. just guessing....

 

[Claroon]

The immediate sequence here is what I'm having trouble with. They stashed the Yukon at the hayfield on the corner of Book Road and Trinity, a long block north of the Bosma house. However, Bullman (Day 5) says the truck and the Yukon pulling out of that field minutes later (about 5 minutes after they left Bosma house) and the two vehicles were captured on video northbound on Trinity Road approaching Wilson across from the Ancaster Fairgrounds, about 9:20 or so thus the evidence seems to be that they headed over to pick up the Yukon immediately after leaving the Bosma house, then went north on Trinity (though neighbour Bullman reportedly saw them going west on Book Road, which doesn't fit).

Hard to figure where and when the shooting took place. The video doesn't provide much wiggle room for a stop in the field, and I seriously doubt that the gun was fired in a public place. OTOH, did they manage to tell TB some story and persuade him to continue with the test drive up Trinity Road? They presumably turned west on Wilson, and there are some rather dark and lonely stretches of road between there and Brantford. Did a struggle perhaps ensue along there when TB realized this wasn't a regular test drive?

Could have gone the wrong way and decided to turn around. I don't think it went down in the field, but I did find this in an article:

"The marine unit was called in Thursday to search a pond in an area off Book Rd. The search stemmed from a tip from a neighbour who heard noises around the time of the disappearance." http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...is_return_after_test_drive_disappearance.html

 

[billandrew]

Anyone have any theories why the stop in Brantford at the Bobcat dealer? Were they to meet someone there? Was TB shot there?

Some possibilities include:

• Moving a dead body into the truck bed.
• Discussing the game plan and figuring out what to do next.
• Reviewing a map to determine the best route to the Roseville Rd farm.
• Smoking a cigarette.
• Taking TB's phone from his pocket and tossing it so that it could not be tracked any further.

IMO if TB was shot in Brantford it would have required him to at least be subdued in Ancaster. I can't see TB willingly going on a test drive all the way to Brantford. Not only that, it would have been way too suspicious if DM pulled over in a hay field and let MS hop in the Yukon to follow behind them. It makes no sense IMO.

There was ample opportunity to shoot TB in Ancaster, and based on the information we have it is the most likely scenario IMO.

 

[Abitcountry]

I would think with limited space in the truck to maneuver while driving, & the length of time, effort & potential for struggle, all while driving, would be unlikely to duct tape someone's hands & feet, MOO.

I have wondered with all this information coming out about DM being known to keep to party drugs on hand, (who knows what assortment he had access to) if they'd possibly intended to drug TB to incapacitate him with some kind of injection drug. I'm not sure what type of drug would incapacitate someone & possibly erase their memory...maybe rohypnol? I think the street name is "roofies"? If murder wasn't in the original plan...(big IF)...maybe they were going to knock him out with drugs that would affect his ability to get help until they were long gone...& possibly affect his memory of what happened. Then perhaps something went awry...which lead to shooting TB, instead of drugging him? All my own speculation. I don't doubt that murder could have been part of the plan all along...but a plan to drug someone on a test drive & dump them somewhere remote would be the only other thing that makes sense when the victim has seen your face. MOO

Do do you think that just maybe the sheer sight of a gun or two might have been enough to persuade TB to co-operate at least for a time......I know if it happened to me, I would be doing what I was told until--or at least until I finally figured out this was not going to turn out well for me and then I might try to leave the vehicle by jumping out as a last resort....I think anyone would soon figure the further they get you from the pick up spot the more serious the trouble you are likely in. MOO

 

[Errrr]

IMO I think it is likely that Smich had a dope user paranoia that developed even further when he had actual reasons to be paranoid. The police were actually following him around, he was likely wondering why he had not been arrested much sooner than he actually was and he may have come to the conclusion on his own that he was under police surveilance and as time went on he realized he was painting himself into a corner.

I think it must have seemed crazy for both DM and MS that Dellen was arrested. I think DM would have expected the sketchy guy with a record to get nailed, not himself. He did realize it was AJ that got the ball rolling though. MS must have been thinking the same thing but wondering what he had done wrong (by wrong I don't mean there was any thought of Tim) to get Dellen arrested.
That's the master and minion dynamic. Kind of reminds me of Manson.