Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Inspector_North]

Anyone have any theories why the stop in Brantford at the Bobcat dealer? Were they to meet someone there? Was TB shot there?

I believe shooting him in the truck was not planned. Remember that DM wanted the truck for a purpose. He also depended on others to complete the morphing of TB's truck into one he could pass off as his own. It makes no sense what so ever to me that he planned to shoot him in the truck. In fact I would go as far as saying DM was more upset with the unexpected mess. The early morning text to employees to stay away tells me the clean up took a lot longer than what was in the original plan.

IMO, Tim was shot before the Bobcat, and they stopped there for an extended period of time to most likely regroup to deal with the change in plans.

Theft and murder was in their plan, just not the way it happened.

MOO

 

[Errrr]

From timeline "Millard drives to Hwy 6 PetroCan station, then to Speers Rd, Oakville. Millard exits vehicle for 50 min"

Has anyone guessed at what he did there for 50 min?

Threatening Smich is my guess.

 

[Claroon]

Theft and murder was in their plan, just not the way it happened.

MOO

So you agree murder was in the plan?

Do you think the exterminator was actually bought for DM's minions to use on missions gone wrong or missions requiring murder?

 

[Abitcountry]

I believe shooting him in the truck was not planned. Remember that DM wanted the truck for a purpose. He also depended on others to complete the morphing of TB's truck into one he could pass off as his own. It makes no sense what so ever to me that he planned to shoot him in the truck. In fact I would go as far as saying DM was more upset with the unexpected mess. The early morning text to employees to stay away tells me the clean up took a lot longer than what was in the original plan.

IMO, Tim was shot before the Bobcat, and they stopped there for an extended period of time to most likely regrouping to deal with the change in plans.

Theft and murder was in their plan, just not the way it happened.

MOO

I agree with you ....and further, I think it may have been one of the eff-ups that Smich was getting strung out about later in the week. In an intense adrenaline surge , Smich may have fired the first shot--remember these guys were not big fans of using the 'safety' on their guns. And a big eff-up like that just may inspire retaliation from Millard....and a possible set up and a couple of calls to Crimestoppers putting LE on your trail.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I believe shooting him in the truck was not planned. Remember that DM wanted the truck for a purpose. He also depended on others to complete the morphing of TB's truck into one he could pass off as his own. It makes no sense what so ever to me that he planned to shoot him in the truck. In fact I would go as far as saying DM was more upset with the unexpected mess. The early morning text to employees to stay away tells me the clean up took a lot longer than what was in the original plan.

IMO, Tim was shot before the Bobcat, and they stopped there for an extended period of time to most likely regroup to deal with the change in plans.

Theft and murder was in their plan, just not the way it happened.

MOO

Perhaps DM intended a head shot, and missed, and shot TB in the neck instead, as TD suggested. Perhaps DM knew from experience with WM that a head shot was less messy. Brain stops the heart. The unexpected mess then would be due to DM being a bad shot rather than that he didn't intend to shoot at all.

 

[Quaere_veritatem]

I live in Woodstock too, I was thinking about Tori yesterday as well, nice to know someone else thinks that timmies is sketchy,

 

[hellkat2]

Too many initials used when it comes to all these people and LE for law enforcement and CS for crimestoppers. I would prefer at this point if sometimes that names could be used because I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer guys.

 

[Errrr]

I did not say anything about CN's charges being upgraded. I said I am still wondering if a big bombshell will be dropped before the Crown's case is completed, and we may find out that CN was the driver of the Yukon that night. If CN went along on the 'mission' that night, knowing only that the goal was to steal a truck, she let the 2 men out to walk down the road to TB's house, the 3 men are in TB's truck, while all the while, she was in control of the Yukon, and then at some later time she finds out that TB is dead in his truck.. and she later assists with concealing evidence.. would the charges not still be Accessory? In that case, CN wouldn't have had beforehand knowledge of any murder or kidnapping, she wouldn't have been present during the murder, so what would the charges be upgraded to?

I think they have pretty solid evidence against CN. They can probably manage without her being very forthcoming and I don't expect her to be unless she has discovered she is just another DM decoy. I don't think she could say anything that would dig her any deeper though. The evidence against the other guys is tenuous. Without charging them I think they can get a less defensive testimony, except for details such as knowing they were handling a murder weapon.

 

[ABro]

From the billandrew timeline: 9:05 pm Tim Bosma takes call and meets two men in driveway.

Add in time to walk up driveway. Then...isn't it normal for a person to look at a vehicle, make small talk, etc. before getting in to testdrive? Then add in time to check rearview mirror, etc.

IMO he was shot at 9:47 as they were slowing in front of Bobcat, just after TB or MS threw TB's phone out the window (1 min. prior) IMO their team of thieves was waiting at Bobcat--predetermined. Possibly just a dump the guy while thieves stay on lookout, and head up to the hangar to do quick truck transformation. Mission gone wrong. IMO

Sharlene called the taller visitor "cellphone guy" because he was talking on his phone as he walked up the driveway. De Boer testified he heard him click off his flip phone.

De Boer also said the speed of the interaction was one of the things that later made him suspicious. Dungey cross-examined on whether or not they did the things a typical buyer would do.

 

[Claroon]

Was there proof they didn't fancy the use of a "safety?" I didn't read that.

 

[hellkat2]

RSBM.

The first thought that came to my mind is because DM and MS worked together before (Laura) and it went well (they got away with it).

MS's friend BD testified that MS would talk about violent stuff when they got high, so DM probably knew of that interest (and maybe a shared gun interest). It sounds like MS was physically with DM when they took the Bobcat (while the other guys were relegated to lookout duty). MS may have been DM's go-to guy at that point.

I have to say I'm surprised DM commingled his friends like that. I thought he'd keep MS away from the Toronto guys who, while no saints, didn't seem to have much in common with MS.

That is an interesting comment you made re thinking Dellen M would do more compartmentalizing of his social circles and there are examples where he did. IMO there was no reason to compartmentalize the Toronto ones from the others as they were all cut from the same cloth. If they were friends of DM then they were sycophants.

 

[flipflop]

From timeline "Millard drives to Hwy 6 PetroCan station, then to Speers Rd, Oakville. Millard exits vehicle for 50 min"

Has anyone guessed at what he did there for 50 min?

What is on Speers Road, or who lives on Speers Road?

I just remembered....MS's mom lives there.

 

[Errrr]

That's what the Crown says in its opening statement, but I think that needs to be taken as a statement in legal terms, not as a description of who did what in the car. The Crown intends to prove that both accused are guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting of TB in his truck etc.

We've had posts earlier about what is needed for a murder to be considered first-degree. Intention and premeditation are generally required, but if a murder (or accidental death for that matter) results from kidnapping and/or forcible confinement, that is automatically first degree murder (ditto if the death results from sexual assault but that is not relevant to this case).

So, if it is satisfactorily proven that both accused forcibly abducted and confined TB, and did it together (i,e, in cahoots with each other), it doesn't require both to be in the truck when the shooting occurred. The one driving the Yukon would be just as guilty of the murder, because he is/was a party to the abduction and forcible confinement, as if he were in the truck simultaneously firing with a second gun.

IOW, the Crown is saying, TB was shot in the truck and both accused did it. Meaning, both accused are responsible and had the mens rea (the legal term -- the intent and mental framework) to commit the crime, as evidenced by the fact they set up the meeting, under duplicitous conditions, lied to TB and his wife and boarder about being "dropped off" and got into the truck with TB, effecting an abduction and forcible confinement according to a preconceived plan. What followed is the responsibility of both even if one was not in the truck when the crime occurred.

The Crown may not be able to prove who fired the fatal shot. Each lawyer may try to suggest that the other defendant did it. But even if either defendant could prove that to be true, it would not get him off the hook. Because he was a party to abduction and forcible confinement of TB, he is guilty of first-degree murder even if he didn't intend TB's death.

The part I don't get is, how did they subdue TB when MS presumably got out of the truck to drive the Yukon? I can't imagine him not trying to do something, whether grab the keys or get away or what. The video evidence from Super Sucker suggests that they wasted no time at the hayfield so the actual shooting must have happened later (besides which, Bullman the neighbour didn't report hearing gunshots).

Once it was established there were only two people involved and they wouldn't want to wreck the truck interior, I thought it would be most effective for the back seat guy to garrotte the passenger before hopping into the chase vehicle. Maybe that's how the rearview mirror got knocked off? It's not a slow process. If TB came-to on the way to the incinerator however, desperate measures would be required by the now lone driver.

 

[hellkat2]

Interesting observation....I guess you could google earth it. I have no idea what he would be doing? Care to come up with a theory?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Was there proof they didn't fancy the use of a "safety?" I didn't read that.

The gun expert JP testified that the photos of the guns showed, in some cases, a red dot that indicated that the safety was off.

 

[Inspector_North]

So you agree murder was in the plan?

Do you think the exterminator was actually bought for DM's minions to use on missions gone wrong or missions requiring murder?

I do believe murder was in their plan. I have little harder time delving into the darkness of the mind of a DM. I have not heard one thing that has convinced me that DM bought the Eliminator for a legitimate business or cheap garbage disposal.

It also bothers me to think that more than a few of his minions knew of DM's darker side. MS, AM, and CN are possibly in that few.

CN's knowledge may have been limited, since we have heard she didn't know about LW_2. From what we have heard, DM was a multi-tasker and kept participants separated according to tasks. If any of his minions were involved, it's not their first time.

MOO

 

[Claroon]

Do do you think that just maybe the sheer sight of a gun or two might have been enough to persuade TB to co-operate at least for a time......I know if it happened to me, I would be doing what I was told until--or at least until I finally figured out this was not going to turn out well for me and then I might try to leave the vehicle by jumping out as a last resort....I think anyone would soon figure the further they get you from the pick up spot the more serious the trouble you are likely in. MOO

IMO Might be hard to jump out on the 403 driving 120 KM/hr. but if they exited at hwy 2 might have been more likely. They were headed south on Oak Park so it makes sense to me to try to jump out when the truck is going the slowest and maybe after figuring out they weren't going to turn around. DM has the gift of charm and maybe had charmed him with conversation to that point.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Too many initials used when it comes to all these people and LE for law enforcement and CS for crimestoppers. I would prefer at this point if sometimes that names could be used because I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer guys.

If we used full names, the search engines would be flooded with references to WS when you searched for news on any of these characters. That's why the initials are used.

 

[Inspector_North]

Was there proof they didn't fancy the use of a "safety?" I didn't read that.

Unlikely that any of these monsters wasted time on a firearm safety course. MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Also, I'm pretty sure all of Millard's friends knew he had a gun. He took photos of it. He was a show off with his stuff. Come on. JMO

I wonder if Dellen M had been around guns all his life in that his dad may have introduced this hobby and maybe even had guns in his home. I think it is likely that Wayne M had them since he was initialling reported to be dead as a result of suicide with a gun which must have been his own. I think that Smech may have been introduced to guns by Dellen and may not have had a lot of experience or knowledge. Is it possible that he may have accidentally shot T. Bosma in the truck with his inexperience????? Because someone on here said that it did not make sense that they would create a bloody crime scene they would have to clean up. Also I thought there was video of Dellen M's Yukon following them somewhere along the line and now there seems to question about this by some of the people on the forum? Can somebody please clarify this? There was video wasn't there?