Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Inspector_North]

I'm definitely thinking along this line also - if DM or MS had either the PAL, or R-PAL firearm safety course, they would likely have legitimate access upon RCMP screening and approval to buying a non-restricted long-gun, and restricted semi-automatic pistol, respectively. DM to my knowledge had no criminal record on file - as such it shouldn't have been an issue for him to purchase legitimate firearms with a PAL, if he presented as a 'good boy' to the RCMP. MS .. not so much, given he's already got a few 'bad boy' credits on his rap sheet, that likely would have disqualified him from a PAL.

Point of the above - if DM and MS haven't been exposed to proper, safe firearms handling through a course (which would explain the safety off thing in one photo) then they could well have been waving a hypothetical hand-gun around with the finger on the trigger - even if the intent was to intimidate, all it would take is a good pothole jounce in the truck, or too much pressure on the trigger, and "blammo".

MS - i can definitely see either ignoring or being ignorant of the trigger finger safety position .. DM, strikes me as someone who simply wouldn't care where his finger is at.

If TB was shot by accident, or design.. the end result is the same for TB, and for MS/DM .. he was shot in the commission of a crime, being held at gun-point, therefore 1st degree murder charges for both. Red-dot == safety off.

Evidence photo as found on MS's i-pad.

I was exposed to firearms at a very early age. I was taught to respect firearms, and was drilled on safety. When I turned 16, I went hunting with a few friends that had also obtained their hunting license. These guys passed a firearm safety course because they were fairly intelligent guys. However, they were inexperienced and scared the crap out of me with their actions.

Funny how we train a young athlete to be good at a sport with years of practice. But somehow, we allow them to drive and shoot with minimal exposure and experience.


MOO

 

[brightii]

There were production orders on the phones of almost everyone in the inner circle. The phone records were entered as exhibits at trial. The tower pings show where their phones were and can be used to show if they were lying.

I've thought of that and maybe they left their phones behind and/or used burner phones?

All MOO.

ETA: DM had a burner phone and apparently his own phone, as did MS have his own phone on the night of May 6th. I wonder if either of their actual phones were physically with them and not lent to others involved that night?

 

[Errrr]

I'm definitely thinking along this line also - if DM or MS had either the PAL, or R-PAL firearm safety course, they would likely have legitimate access upon RCMP screening and approval to buying a non-restricted long-gun, and restricted semi-automatic pistol, respectively. DM to my knowledge had no criminal record on file - as such it shouldn't have been an issue for him to purchase legitimate firearms with a PAL, if he presented as a 'good boy' to the RCMP. MS .. not so much, given he's already got a few 'bad boy' credits on his rap sheet, that likely would have disqualified him from a PAL.

Point of the above - if DM and MS haven't been exposed to proper, safe firearms handling through a course (which would explain the safety off thing in one photo) then they could well have been waving a hypothetical hand-gun around with the finger on the trigger - even if the intent was to intimidate, all it would take is a good pothole jounce in the truck, or too much pressure on the trigger, and "blammo".

MS - i can definitely see either ignoring or being ignorant of the trigger finger safety position .. DM, strikes me as someone who simply wouldn't care where his finger is at.

If TB was shot by accident, or design.. the end result is the same for TB, and for MS/DM .. he was shot in the commission of a crime, being held at gun-point, therefore 1st degree murder charges for both. Red-dot == safety off.

Evidence photo as found on MS's i-pad.

View attachment 91722

Who's face is that in the distance? It looks like a beefy faced guy with a van dyke.

 

[hellkat2]

so LE followed DM to Smich's? and MH told crimestoppers that Smich was the other guy and Smich never got arrested until the 22nd? Why? I am not getting why he was not arrested sooner...if they had arrested him on the 10th like they arrested Dm then they might have the gun, no?

Could it be that LE wanted to catch others in the net before they decided to pull it in?

 

[billandrew]

so LE followed DM to Smich's? and MH told crimestoppers that Smich was the other guy and Smich never got arrested until the 22nd? Why? I am not getting why he was not arrested sooner...if they had arrested him on the 10th like they arrested Dm then they might have the gun, no?

They may not have had enough evidence to arrest him sooner, but it is peculiar that they didn't at least interview him sooner. Perhaps they were actually watching him the whole time to see if he would lead them to more information? If so, it's peculiar that surveillance didn't begin until May 14. Perhaps it began sooner, but this has not been disclosed by the police?

The police interviewed everyone else in DM's circle so quickly: Schlatman, Michalski, Hagerman, Whidden, etc., but they never interviewed Smich? They had DM's phone records and could tell that he contacted Smich on May 6. They could also see frequent correspondence throughout the week of May 6 with Meneses's phone. If I am reading the tweets correctly, surveillance on Smich didn't begin until May 14, four days after DM's arrest and three days after Hagerman provided Smich's name to Crimestoppers.

 

[ABro]

I've thought of that and maybe they left their phones behind and/or used burner phones?

All MOO.

ETA: DM had a burner phone and apparently his own phone, as did MS have his own phone on the night of May 6th. I wonder if either of their actual phones were physically with them and not lent to others involved that night?

I think you missed out on one of the central pieces of evidence in this case: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LUH8AIqxz_A5BaPXaGFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit?usp=sharing

And yes, they could have lent their phones to little green men too while we're at it.

 

[musicaljoke]

Too many initials used when it comes to all these people and LE for law enforcement and CS for crimestoppers. I would prefer at this point if sometimes that names could be used because I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer guys.

I don't use LE for law enforcement, 'cause we don't use that term here in Canada, do we? I think perhaps that it's used mainly in the US. So I just type out the word 'police'. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the initials, but it protects innocent people from having their names connected to crimes in google searches.

 

[palisadesk]

I think they have pretty solid evidence against CN. They can probably manage without her being very forthcoming and I don't expect her to be unless she has discovered she is just another DM decoy. I don't think she could say anything that would dig her any deeper though.

It's probably in CN's best interests to be as helpful to the Crown as she possibly can be. Nothing she says under oath can be used against her in her trial, so that is not a worry. But it is possible that how her case proceeds will depend on how "co-operative" she is. Post Karla Homolka, no "deal" has been struck, but it would not surprise me if one of two things happened after this trial is over presuming that CN's testimony is especially useful and assists the Crown's case:

1. Charges against her would not be dropped (too serious) but might be stayed. This is like putting them on hold. The prosecution is discontinued, but can be resumed if the accused person is arrested for another offense. There's a time limit after which, stayed charges expire. I don't think this is likely, considering how serious the charges are, but option 2 would be

2. Changing CN's charges to a lesser offense, such as obstruction of justice. This would likely not result in a jail/prison sentence, but to time served unter house arrest etc. The Court looks at things like, how much of a danger to the public is this person? In CN's case, probably not much. A term in a federal penitentiary would not serve the public interest. Mandatory counselling and community service would be more appropriate for someone like CN.

A third possibility, if her Accessory After the Fact trial goes forward, would be to recommend a lenient sentence (the maximum is life in prison). Were she to be especially useful to the Crown in this case, that would be taken to account.

I'm sure she has been promised nothing, but will also bet that she has been advised to be completely honest and forthcoming in her testimony, especially given that none of it can be used against her. She has much to gain and nothing to lose (unless she's one of those "terrified" by DM even though he's behind bars).

Of course, even in the best case scenario, she can only tell us what she knows (or thinks she knows, since DM almost certainly lied to her as he did to everyone else). But I expect she will have some information other witnesses have not been able to supply.

 

[musicaljoke]

LE may not have had enough evidence for a search warrant at that time. Unfortunately, the media got to his house first, inducing him to bury the gun.

Do you think that the gun is truly buried ... end of story? Given the amount of lying that's going on, my sceptical mind thinks that "buried" is code for "I'm not telling where it is". It was in May 2013, really early in the investigation, that the Crown said that the gun was buried, but nearly three years has passed since then. Is it remotely possible that the gun has since been discovered?

Searching for the link ...

 

[brightii]

I think you missed out on one of the central pieces of evidence in this case: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LUH8AIqxz_A5BaPXaGFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit?usp=sharing

And yes, they could have lent their phones to little green men too while we're at it.

Perhaps I have, but if others were present and didn't have phones or used burner phones that LE couldn't trace or connect to any of them, is that not possible? Aliens aside. lol

All MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

They may not have had enough evidence to arrest him sooner, but it is peculiar that they didn't at least interview him sooner. Perhaps they were actually watching him the whole time to see if he would lead them to more information? If so, it's peculiar that surveillance didn't begin until May 14. Perhaps it began sooner, but this has not been disclosed by the police?

The police interviewed everyone else in DM's circle so quickly: Schlatman, Michalski, Hagerman, Whidden, etc., but they never interviewed Smich? They had DM's phone records and could tell that he contacted Smich on May 6. They could also see frequent correspondence throughout the week of May 6 with Meneses's phone. If I am reading the tweets correctly, surveillance on Smich didn't begin until May 14, four days after DM's arrest and three days after Hagerman provided Smich's name to Crimestoppers.

I agree! Time was very important since Tim was still considered missing.

"Police had eyes on him from May 14-18 and then again on May 21 and 22. The jury heard there was a two-day hiatus in the surveillance operation on May 19 and 20 due to an “investigative issue.” Oxley didn’t elaborate." T-Star

 

[Ontario Mom]

IMO, unknown others were involved in the TB truck theft mission. I don't think there is evidence that LE has that can prove it, hence no additional charges for others - YET - but I really think others were in on the whole thing that fateful night of May 6th. What if there were the usual suspects used as "lookouts" nearby TB's home that indeed dropped off DM and MS at TB's home and then parked and later pulled out of the field and drove ahead to the chosen Bobcat location to meet up with DM and MS? It is possible, IMO.

<rsbm>

While it's most certainly possible, and even makes sense on a probable level given what we now know about DM using "lookouts" on his previous "missions", we've been given no real reason by the Crown to infer this is what happened. Further, if LE had probable cause to get the phone records of such folks as SS, AM, MH or anyone else, they would have, and would have seen if there phones also pinged off the same towers in Ancaster/Brantford on the same night DM and MS's did. I don't know if LE just didn't think anyone else was with them that night, or didn't have enough evidence to get a warrant for their phones, or if they DID get a warrant, ruled those guys out based on ping history for the night of the 6th. For all the work the various LE agencies did in conjunction with one another on this case, IF anyone else was suspected to have been anywhere near the Bosma place that night, I think we'd be seeing charges for them as well.

And thanks to Abro for linking to the evidence exhibit of the phone pings/activity that night. I was just too lazy.

 

[brightii]

<rsbm>

While it's most certainly possible, and even makes sense on a probable level given what we now know about DM using "lookouts" on his previous "missions", we've been given no real reason by the Crown to infer this is what happened. Further, if LE had probable cause to get the phone records of such folks as SS, AM, MH or anyone else, they would have, and would have seen if there phones also pinged off the same towers in Ancaster/Brantford on the same night DM and MS's did. I don't know if LE just didn't think anyone else was with them that night, or didn't have enough evidence to get a warrant for their phones, or if they DID get a warrant, ruled those guys out based on ping history for the night of the 6th. For all the work the various LE agencies did in conjunction with one another on this case, IF anyone else was suspected to have been anywhere near the Bosma place that night, I think we'd be seeing charges for them as well.

I guess my theory rests with the possibility that the "others" if involved didn't take phones, or could have used burner phones, or could have been given DM or MS's phone(s) and therefore they would ping off the same area cell towers.

Also, the Crown did stipulate that we should go where the evidence guides as the trial progresses so pretty much any theory is still possible, IMO, since more evidence is still pending. I know there is little evidence so far to support my theory, so I'm purely speculating in the absence of evidence to what seems to add up more to me. The whole crime makes no sense to me, so I guess it's in my nature to try and make sense of the senseless. And that's a very frustrating experience.

All MOO.

 

[Errrr]

Do you think that the gun is truly buried ... end of story? Given the amount of lying that's going on, my sceptical mind thinks that "buried" is code for "I'm not telling where it is". It was in May 2013, really early in the investigation, that the Crown said that the gun was buried, but nearly three years has passed since then. Is it remotely possible that the gun has since been discovered?

Searching for the link ...

I don't personally think he actually buried it. I always thought he sold it up until the motivation for hiding it came up. Time ran out. It is too valuable to destroy for a guy like him. I think he hid it somewhere for future sale. JMO
Maybe when he's 58 or so he'll take some hags out for drinks.

 

[billandrew]

Here's an interesting set of tweets from Susan Clairmont about the Smich surveillance testimony (Stuart Oxley, 2016-02-24). I have parsed it a bit:

• Sgt. [Oxley] testified earlier in trial related to arrest of Millard. Now testifying about Smich arrest. With @HamiltonPolice surveillance unit.
• Had Smich under surveillance for 5 or 6 day starting May 14 to 18, then again May 21. Arrest May 22.
• May 7, 9:24 pm got call from SS Matt Kavanagh, homicide unit. Asked to put Smich under surveillance.
• Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance. 7:03 am May 8 started surveillance on target. Continued to 9:55 pm.
• Vice and drugs took over for the night.
• Sorry. Surveillance began May 14. Wrong in earlier tweet.

Were the tweets referencing May 7 and 8 a slip on Clairmont's behalf, or the officer's?

Something else I find peculiar: the one tweet says "Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance". But, by May13/14 they had found what they assumed to be TB's remains in the incinerator, so was it still necessary to reference a "disappearance", as opposed to a murder? This may be a stretch, but perhaps the police had identified Smich as a suspect much earlier than we know about.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I guess my theory rests with the possibility that the "others" if involved didn't take phones, or could have used burner phones, or could have been given DM or MS's phone(s) and therefore they would ping off the same area cell towers.

Also, the Crown did stipulate that we should go where the evidence guides as the trial progresses so pretty much any theory is still possible, IMO, since more evidence is still pending. I know there is little evidence so far to support my theory, so I'm purely speculating in the absence of evidence to what seems to add up more to me. The whole crime makes no sense to me, so I guess it's in my nature to try and make sense of the senseless. And that's a very frustrating experience.

All MOO.

I think that's the biggest stumbling block to everyone here. And by everyone, I'll assume everyone posting & interacting are folks that a.) don't go around stealing trucks and b.) shooting the owner and c.) utilizing an incinerator to dispose of the owner. These are the actions of a truly wicked mind.

There are some crimes that make sense, despite the fact they're crimes. Stealing food because you're starving. Shooting an abusive husband. Stealing a car to get to safety. (just some random examples) But this one? It's all wrapped up in pure selfish satisfaction, whether that's from thinking they got away with it, or the rush whichever one of them got from shooting a man, or both.

I think (in retrospect) this is also part of why I was so hopeful to think MH's bawling on the stand was a result of genuine remorse for his part after the fact (whether he even really knew what he was doing or not). Lord knows, I want SOMEONE on that stand, someone who was among DM's idiotic, thieving, lying ecosystem in 2013 to show some genuine, honest disgust, shame, and remorse for ever being connected to him in the first place. Other than DM's own uncle, I think MH was the closest we've seen to that, so far.

My heart aches for the Bosma family. I want everyone involved to face the harshest sentence possible, and justice served. I'll be really glad when this trial is over.

 

[ABro]

<rsbm>

While it's most certainly possible, and even makes sense on a probable level given what we now know about DM using "lookouts" on his previous "missions", we've been given no real reason by the Crown to infer this is what happened. Further, if LE had probable cause to get the phone records of such folks as SS, AM, MH or anyone else, they would have, and would have seen if there phones also pinged off the same towers in Ancaster/Brantford on the same night DM and MS's did. I don't know if LE just didn't think anyone else was with them that night, or didn't have enough evidence to get a warrant for their phones, or if they DID get a warrant, ruled those guys out based on ping history for the night of the 6th. For all the work the various LE agencies did in conjunction with one another on this case, IF anyone else was suspected to have been anywhere near the Bosma place that night, I think we'd be seeing charges for them as well.

And thanks to Abro for linking to the evidence exhibit of the phone pings/activity that night. I was just too lazy.

They did get warrants on the phones of most of the inner circle. Their phone records are trial exhibits.

 

[Ontario Mom]

They did get warrants on the phones of most of the inner circle. They are trial exhibits.

I assumed they did, but wasn't sure on exactly who they got warrants for. (and just remember, when you win that 6/49 tonight, how much we all really appreciate you)

 

[billandrew]

I agree! Time was very important since Tim was still considered missing.

"Police had eyes on him from May 14-18 and then again on May 21 and 22. The jury heard there was a two-day hiatus in the surveillance operation on May 19 and 20 due to an &#8220;investigative issue.&#8221; Oxley didn&#8217;t elaborate." T-Star

IIRC, Smich's sister's wedding was the weekend of May 19/20, which coincidentally corresponded with the hiatus in surveillance.

 

[Gibson67]

Just noticed in the phone pings that just a few hours before dropping off the toolbox to MH, Dellen was in text communication with Smich. Maybe he already told him what he was doing and that the heat was on. These two were doing everything together in this crime right up until the evening of the 9th. I'm not convinced DM was in control of Smich and trying to frame him. I believe neither told anything to the police about the other and remained silent. I think it is just the jobs of the defence to create reasonable doubt by playing one against the other and they seem to be giving us all some reason to speculate on different possible scenarios. Even doubting Smich..but I'm not buying that he was controlled by DM. He is just as evil.

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...GFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit#slide=id.p106

exhibit 49
DM received text from Smich 1:23 AM I'm sure we will see these texts
still had his own phone..then by the 10th he had gotten rid of his phones.