Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

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Of course it's possible, just like it's possible I'll win the 6/49 tonight.

But if you want to play speculative games, why not start by looking for the weaknesses in the theory you're proposing.

I don't think speculation is a game. I get exhausted thinking through all the possibilities of this crime, but as you concede, while my theory to you may seem unlikely, it is possible. I leave it to you (and others) to expose the weaknesses since you seem better at it than I, and more intent.

All MOO.
 
I don't like to use the word "assume" in a trial but until we hear more testimony I will pose this question: is it safe to assume that the toolbox and backpack were picked up from the stairwell not long after AM and Haggerman dumped it? Therefore, AM must have been talking or texting with MS as they drove to Oakville. Unless I have the timeline mixed up the box and pack were dropped off in a hurry after hearing of DM arrest and Daly has said that as soon as Smich found out about the arrest he was panicking about the toolbox he had? Am I missing something?
 
Here's an interesting set of tweets from Susan Clairmont about the Smich surveillance testimony (Stuart Oxley, 2016-02-24). I have parsed it a bit:

  • Sgt. [Oxley] testified earlier in trial related to arrest of Millard. Now testifying about Smich arrest. With @HamiltonPolice surveillance unit.
  • Had Smich under surveillance for 5 or 6 day starting May 14 to 18, then again May 21. Arrest May 22.
  • May 7, 9:24 pm got call from SS Matt Kavanagh, homicide unit. Asked to put Smich under surveillance.
  • Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance. 7:03 am May 8 started surveillance on target. Continued to 9:55 pm.
  • Vice and drugs took over for the night.
  • Sorry. Surveillance began May 14. Wrong in earlier tweet.

Were the tweets referencing May 7 and 8 a slip on Clairmont's behalf, or the officer's?

Something else I find peculiar: the one tweet says "Looking at him in connection to #Bosma disappearance". But, by May13/14 they had found what they assumed to be TB's remains in the incinerator, so was it still necessary to reference a "disappearance", as opposed to a murder? This may be a stretch, but perhaps the police had identified Smich as a suspect much earlier than we know about.

It's a slip/typo. Surveillance began May 14 according to the evidence given in court. My notes show the call from Kavanagh came May 13. The reporter herself says it was a mistake.
 
I don't like to use the word "assume" in a trial but until we hear more testimony I will pose this question: is it safe to assume that the toolbox and backpack were picked up from the stairwell not long after AM and Haggerman dumped it? Therefore, AM must have been talking or texting with MS as they drove to Oakville. Unless I have the timeline mixed up the box and pack were dropped off in a hurry after hearing of DM arrest and Daly has said that as soon as Smich found out about the arrest he was panicking about the toolbox he had? Am I missing something?

This tweet sums:

Adam CarterVerified account ‏@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
@bummerjade No, he said he wasn't in contact with Smich. Michalski was texting, but we don't yet know who.


...these tweets:

molly hayesVerified account ‏@mollyhayes Apr 7
He doesn't know any of the conversations between Michalski and Smich. Says Michalski was on his phone texting. #Bosma

molly hayesVerified account ‏@mollyhayes Apr 7
He doesn't know any of the conversations between Michalski and Smich. Says Michalski was on his phone texting. #Bosma

Adam CarterVerified account ‏@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
This wasn't an agreed upon location. Has "no idea" if Michalski was texting Smich, but he was on his phone. #TimBosma #Bosma

molly hayesVerified account ‏@mollyhayes Apr 7
Michalski is texting and he's texting Smich, you figure, Sachak says. Yes. #Bosma

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV Apr 7 Toronto, Ontario
Hagerman says he assumed the friend he was with, Michalski, was texting with Mark Smich about the drop #Bosma
 
Just noticed in the phone pings that just a few hours before dropping off the toolbox to MH, Dellen was in text communication with Smich. Maybe he already told him what he was doing and that the heat was on. These two were doing everything together in this crime right up until the evening of the 9th. I'm not convinced DM was in control of Smich and trying to frame him. I believe neither told anything to the police about the other and remained silent. I think it is just the jobs of the defence to create reasonable doubt by playing one against the other and they seem to be giving us all some reason to speculate on different possible scenarios. Even doubting Smich..but I'm not buying that he was controlled by DM. He is just as evil.

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...GFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit#slide=id.p106

exhibit 49
DM received text from Smich 1:23 AM I'm sure we will see these texts
still had his own phone..then by the 10th he had gotten rid of his phones.

There are several texts between kingpin and minions that have not been shown yet.
 
Well maybe she was not the driver.....maybe she was a passenger in the Yukon !!!

Haven't looked back on the time line but...
If CN was in the Yukon or driving...where did she go when theyou boys went to the farm and the hanger? We didn't see her walk into the hanger with DM, MS & puppy. Did they have time to make another stop somewhere to drop her off before going to the hanger?
 
IMO, unknown others were involved in the TB truck theft mission. I don't think there is evidence that LE has that can prove it, hence no additional charges for others - YET - but I really think others were in on the whole thing that fateful night of May 6th. What if there were the usual suspects used as "lookouts" nearby TB's home that indeed dropped off DM and MS at TB's home and then parked and later pulled out of the field and drove ahead to the chosen Bobcat location to meet up with DM and MS? It is possible, IMO.

Also the Crown does say in its OS to consider the evidence and witness testimony as it given and to go by that essentially should things come up in trial that point in other directions than what the Crown asserts. IMO, the Crown has its case and its own theories and is presenting it as such. In order to prove any other theories the defense would have to call witnesses or present evidence to the contrary to make a case for reasonable doubt about the involvement of either accused, IMO. I don't think either defense will be able to prove others are involved, yet they may try to allude to it by exposing through witness testimony that others are unsavory and criminal characters known to one or both of the accused and have motive to frame one of the accused?

My personal theory and all MOO is that MS was set up on a casual bet among thieves, as sick as that sounds, and outright devilish. DM wanted TB's truck for his future Baja race escapade with closest partners in crime, AM and SS, JMO. DM was both cash poor and morally bankrupt. DM was intent on having his mission accomplished and so he recruited his go-to gang, those who were ever ready and willing to help him realize his harebrained schemes on a moment's notice, all for the fun of it, no harm done, just a promise of some excitement to distract from their otherwise boring lives, and I do believe the others involved may have included CN. DM never acts alone. They just planned to be there for DM to help him on his mission to steal the truck which was scoped out for months before. All fun and games. DM chose MS as his primary accomplice much to the delight of the others, not because MS was the most trusted thief among them, but rather because he was the least stable, the one with the criminal record, Say10 video history, the wannabe rapper, the cagey demeanor, the desperate drug addict lacking confidence and needing somewhere to fit in, the one with an all around blatantly loser lifestyle as their Mark, and just on the off chance they were ever caught, they were prepared to throw him swiftly under the bus, and would make sure it was going downhill fast and completely out of control. If caught, the joke would be at the expense of dispensable and pathetic MS that night for sure! Hahahaha!

I can see them all laughing and thinking how funny such a scenario might be, not truly expecting it might happen, and likely honestly hoping it would not . . . but just in case, they had to have someone in the shadows to blame, the same story to stick to, and neat and tidy alibis all lined up, just in case LE caught them red-handed or came around asking questions, after the fact. They'd all plead ignorance and surprise and point fingers at MS! I believe DM then veered off the chosen path unbeknownst to any of them and he impulsively escalated from wanting only a truck, he wanted to use his gun and prove it was no toy and he was not one to be trifled with, to feel the ultimate power and relive it as he had known it before, (LB and WM) and chose to display it for his enamored audience, and so he went full speed ahead with his own twisted plan to kill for the thrill of it and shot TB in truck at the Bobcat location. When DM parked at the Bobcat location (so familiar with Bobcats) with the Yukon right behind, and the others were already waiting to help him subdue the driver for a time until they could all get away. DM and MS then jumped out of the truck and suddenly DM shot TB point blank while standing outside the truck but with his arm extended deep inside the cab. Silence. Shock. The laughter stopped. I think when this happened his gang was immediately awestruck and in the presence of the all-powerful DM after witnessing firsthand his blood-lust, and they were forever changed and tarnished by DM's actions. After all it was supposed to just be a simple truck theft and they didn't consider a murder, but they were all there. Now what? In the aftermath, a barrage of tense words were exchanged: WTF man! Why did you do that? OMG! and then they all scrambled to come up with a new plan, an escape route, a fresh story to tell among themselves, because now they were implicated in a murder, and they then all got into their vehicles and someone took TB's phone and on their way to wherever next, threw the phone outside the vehicle.

What were they feeling then? Panic. Pandemonium. Exhilaration. The thrill and the horror of having been a part of a gamer's fantasy that in a flash became a reality that would take time to process, knowing it could never be undone. DM had MS convinced that since DM used MS's gun, DM would have no problem accusing MS of TB's murder and DM knew none of the others would go against DM and tell the truth. MS knew it as well. Therefore, fearful of DM and the threat of TB's murder pinned on him MS agreed to help DM get rid of TB's body in the incinerator because he felt he had no other choice. MS likely thought if he didn't cooperate he too would end up killed and incinerated. He was paranoid in the days after, he was petrified and all for good reason.

Okay, now let the heckling begin...lol

Just wild speculation by me and All MOO.

Wow...if just the simple act of pointing a gun at someone would be a powerful pursuader----can you imagine the impression created amongst Millard's crew if he murdered TB right before their eyes.....what a no nonsense message in a millisecond.
No wonder Smich was scared out of his mind and kicking his own azz at every turn,repeating over and over ---I eff'd up.
No wonder AM was on the phone in the middle of the night to MH.
No wonder AM and MH were sweating and all too ready to ditch a toolbox+gun and $1800 worth of pot in an empty stair well !!!!
And no wonder 3 years later, Hagerman is whimpering on the witness stand at the Bosma trial.
They were all threatened within an inch of their lives and they got an eye full how it all would end!!!...If Millard had not been arrested so swiftly, l have no doubt that this was the first step of the next level and the Eliminator was going to
start paying for itself.
Just when I thought I had pretty much heard it all.....you have taken me to a whole other level of consideration.....unfortunate as it all sounds it is nevertheless, completely believable.
Not easy to read and I am sure not easy to write....thanks Brightii :therethere:
 
MOO, I agree that the sheer sight of a gun would be enough to persuade most people to co-operate, at least until they believed fighting for their life was the only option, or until they thought they had an opportunity to escape. I only wonder about the possibility of drugging TB, in the case that murder wasn't part of the original plan...due to their faces having been seen. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised that a thrill kill was part of the plan in the first place. It will be interesting to hear the testimonies of AM, MM & CN...though I doubt the entire truth will ever be known.
There was a report shortly after it was released that TB had been murdered. Yes, it is an unnamed source, but IMHO, the "unnamed sources" seem to have provided some pretty accurate info. MOO

BBM

Also according to the source, police said after Bosma’s body was found that they believed he was killed in his truck following a struggle.
“He did not die in the fire,” the source said. “He didn’t burn alive.”


http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html
 
If any one of his minions knew about the truck theft beforehand, it was AM. After all, DM, SS, and AM were the three Amigos that tattoo together. Being that AM goes to the Baja, I am sure he is privy to the need a diesel idea proposed by SS, and how DM was going make it happen.

After only lasting a few minutes into the Baja 500 2011 race, what they really needed was a new driver and/or mechanic.
MOO
 
Wow...if just the simple act of pointing a gun at someone would be a powerful pursuader----can you imagine the impression created amongst Millard's crew if he murdered TB right before their eyes.....what a no nonsense message in a millisecond.
No wonder Smich was scared out of his mind and kicking his own azz at every turn,repeating over and over ---I eff'd up.
No wonder AM was on the phone in the middle of the night to MH.
No wonder AM and MH were sweating and all too ready to ditch a toolbox+gun and $1800 worth of pot in an empty stair well !!!!
And no wonder 3 years later, Hagerman is whimpering on the witness stand at the Bosma trial.
They were all threatened within an inch of their lives and they got an eye full how it all would end!!!...If Millard had not been arrested so swiftly, l have no doubt that this was the first step of the next level and the Eliminator was going to
start paying for itself.
Just when I thought I had pretty much heard it all.....you have taken me to a whole other level of consideration.....unfortunate as it all sounds it is nevertheless, completely believable.
Not easy to read and I am sure not easy to write....thanks Brightii :therethere:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Abitcountry! It's good to know that if I'm from an alien planet, it's occupied by friendly others. lol

All MOO
 
Haven't looked back on the time line but...
If CN was in the Yukon or driving...where did she go when theyou boys went to the farm and the hanger? We didn't see her walk into the hanger with DM, MS & puppy. Did they have time to make another stop somewhere to drop her off before going to the hanger?

Did you see how many doors there are into that hangar.....I counted them from the google images and came up with 10 man doors....at least 3 loading doors.....and a wall full of hangar doors. I agree they did not show on the few seconds of surveillance recording that we were shown.....I repeat, they were not on the few seconds we were shown....The DVR was running for hours I presume and we saw what ...maybe 60 seconds if lucky. And what if Dell and Smich came one door and the gang came in
another.
Do you really think she wouldn't have been up to the same task the guys were surely going to be doing....then think again. CN is no cupcake and if she was at the Bobcat dealership, she likely got the same graphic lesson that they did.
I think Millard turned off the charm offence once and for all time when they left Bobcat's and his crew knew it...the stakes just got a whole lot higher in a hurry and now it was strictly "do or die missions" going forward
 
I really don't think it's fair to speculate that CN, AM, MH, etc. were direct participants in TB's murder. There's absolutely no evidence to support that.
 
Did you see how many doors there are into that hangar.....I counted them from the google images and came up with 10 man doors....at least 3 loading doors.....and a wall full of hangar doors. I agree they did not show on the few seconds of surveillance recording that we were shown.....I repeat, they were not on the few seconds we were shown....The DVR was running for hours I presume and we saw what ...maybe 60 seconds if lucky. And what if Dell and Smich came one door and the gang came in
another.
Do you really think she wouldn't have been up to the same task the guys were surely going to be doing....then think again. CN is no cupcake and if she was at the Bobcat dealership, she likely got the same graphic lesson that they did.
I think Millard turned off the charm offence once and for all time when they left Bobcat's and his crew knew it...the stakes just got a whole lot higher in a hurry and now it was strictly "do or die missions" going forward

Just watching the detailed work LE did putting this case together, and the fact only three have been charged, I would say the 'hole in the hanger' gang operated between 3-5 am. One thing to get the boys to lookout for a theft, another to silence them after a murder.

MOO
 
I really don't think it's fair to speculate that CN, AM, MH, etc. were direct participants in TB's murder. There's absolutely no evidence to support that.

It's beginning to read as though speculation has been presented as evidence.
 
I really don't think it's fair to speculate that CN, AM, MH, etc. were direct participants in TB's murder. There's absolutely no evidence to support that.

Respectfully, SnooperDuper, no one has suggested that they participated in TB's murder. All that has been speculated AFAIK is that the crew that were involved in previous thefts could have been involved in the TB truck theft, and that speculation has arisen from direct evidence give by MH last week, IMO. My theory or others that I've seen doesn't say any of those mentioned above murdered TB, and in fact my theory says they were all not expecting to become involved in a murder and that DM was the murderer to their great shock and awe.

All MOO.
 
I don't think speculation is a game. I get exhausted thinking through all the possibilities of this crime, but as you concede, while my theory to you may seem unlikely, it is possible. I leave it to you (and others) to expose the weaknesses since you seem better at it than I, and more intent.

All MOO.

I understand that you want to make sense of something that seems so fundamentally senseless but I don't think baseless speculation is the way to go. IMO it trivializes a tragic crime and the hard work that's been done on this case for so long by so many professionals.
 
Just watching the detailed work LE did putting this case together, and the fact only three have been charged, I would say the 'hole in the hanger' gang operated between 3-5 am. One thing to get the boys to lookout for a theft, another to silence them after a murder.

MOO

I don't know if the crew's previous escapades were limited only to the wee hours of the morning, but they did apparently, according to MH operate after dark. TB was murdered after dark as well, IMO. His body was burned in the wee hours of the next morning, IMO, and according to evidence.

All MOO.
 
That's a distant possibility, perhaps, but it is very unlikely, particularly in view of the fact that nothing these witnesses say on the stand in this case can be used against them in future cases (with some technical exceptions too complicated to go into).

Police and the justice system tend to take the longer view: in order to catch and convict the big fish, the little fish are netted but ultimately allowed to swim away. The system has no appetite for going after criminal trial witnesses at a later date, even when they have compelling reasons to do so (Karla Homolka being a good example - she broke the terms of her plea resolution agreement and could have been brought up on further charges, but the politicians at the top said No, leave it. So police and Crown could do nothing).

The Charter of Rights protects witnesses from having testimony they give in court be used against them in the future. It would also be a much harder slog for police and Crown to get witnesses to testify if there were a perception that doing so would lead them to being criminally charged themselves. The Crown needs the good will of these people even if, as is often the case in criminal proceedings, many are less than model citizens.

This explanation, while it starts from a family law perspective, explains the Charter issues fairly clearly and succinctly:

http://www.joshuaclarke.ca/tag/section-13-of-canadian-charter-of-rights-and-freedom/

Thanks for the info. It is it possible that the witnesses (DM's sycophants) will be prepared by lawyers to only state what they believe will build the prosecutions case and other information will not be introduced because it doesn't assist the crown? And I guess the same for the defense team? Is this justice? Is the truth ever told?
 
I understand that you want to make sense of something that seems so fundamentally senseless but I don't think baseless speculation is the way to go. IMO it trivializes a tragic crime and the hard work that's been done on this case for so long by so many professionals.

Respectfully, Abro, I don't think there is anything trivial about my theory about the crime and nor is that my intention.

All MOO.
 
Just watching the detailed work LE did putting this case together, and the fact only three have been charged, I would say the 'hole in the hanger' gang operated between 3-5 am. One thing to get the boys to lookout for a theft, another to silence them after a murder.

MOO

well you are absolutely right....to silence a person after a murder would not be any easy feat indeed.

Whether you agree or not take a patient read through Brightii's post #446 and repeated in post #487......see where this member thinks it may have gone and ask yourself is it even faintly probable or likely given all that you've read here so far. I have no trouble believing that the tactic suggested in Brightii's speculation is entirely possible and would have been highly successful if DM had pulled such a stunt on his crew.
 
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