Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

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We haven't yet heard how DM notified MS about the plan to go to Ancaster. If there were any phone calls or texts, these items were not disclosed in the cell activity report. Perhaps it is upcoming? Or perhaps there is simply no record of it?

At some point, by some means, DM must have contacted MS to essentially say "Hey man, I'm going to look at a truck tonight, make sure you're ready to go by 8pm. Are you going to be at Speers Rd or Montrose?"
 
Ah yes, I guess they all snuck in on foot across the airport so they wouldn't be detected on video with the incinerator, truck and Yukon!

Is that what you are speculating they did in order to avoid the surveillance camera indoors at the hangar......Was that barefoot as well.
Do you really think if a character like DM wanted to get his buddies into the hangar unseen he couldn't figure out how to do it ?

Is this another one of your Errrrors ? :hilarious:
 
I am not in any way suggesting that LE is incompetent, but my theory clearly states that LE did not have the evidence to prove it. How do we know what other theories that LE had or have but simply lack the evidence to prove? That's not a slur against LE or the magnitude of their very thorough investigation, it's simply an observation and a theory of mine that perhaps they couldn't get such evidence to prove my theory in court.

New evidence has been presented in court this past week exposing DM and his comrades in previous capers involving thefts. I imagine that there are many, many details in this crime that will never be known, as others have said too, and yet that doesn't mean people think LE screwed up, IMO.

All MOO.

I don't think it is necessary to put you on an ignore list. That would make me closed minded because I am unwilling to listen to other people's opinions that I do not agree with. You don't need to take it as far as claiming that people believe that you are anti-police and anti-Crown, etc. I don't think that at all.

However, your argument is flawed. Let me explain it through Wikipedia. In formal logic it is called the appeal to ignorance.

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four.

Example: There is no compelling evidence that UFOs are not visiting the Earth; therefore, UFOs exist, and there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe.

Your argument is similar: there is no evidence that MH or AM were not present during the murder; therefore, they were present, and they watched it happen.

I am in no way saying you're ignorant, you make a lot of interesting points, it's just the logic in the argument is flawed.
 
Is that what you are speculating they did in order to avoid the surveillance camera indoors at the hangar......Was that barefoot as well.
Do you really think if a character like DM wanted to get his buddies into the hangar unseen he couldn't figure out how to do it ?

Frankly I think DM is kind of an idiot but I think he thought those around him were even bigger idiots. Keeping in mind, this is the guy who didn't bother to turn off the hangar's surveillance video & assumed hiding it instead of destroying it, would be the better option.
 
Is that what you are speculating they did in order to avoid the surveillance camera indoors at the hangar......Was that barefoot as well.
Do you really think if a character like DM wanted to get his buddies into the hangar unseen he couldn't figure out how to do it ?

There were only three in the hanger that night. DM, MS, and Pedo

MOO
 
But they went for a test drive with IT during the day. I don't think that was a practice run, even if IT can still tell his story. They used the exact same method. Burner phone, walked up to the seller, etc.

Do you think they were with him for that test drive?

I don't know, but it's possible and DM for whatever reason scratched the plan.

All MOO.
 
Wow...if just the simple act of pointing a gun at someone would be a powerful pursuader----can you imagine the impression created amongst Millard's crew if he murdered TB right before their eyes.....what a no nonsense message in a millisecond.
No wonder Smich was scared out of his mind and kicking his own azz at every turn,repeating over and over ---I eff'd up.
No wonder AM was on the phone in the middle of the night to MH.
No wonder AM and MH were sweating and all too ready to ditch a toolbox+gun and $1800 worth of pot in an empty stair well !!!!
And no wonder 3 years later, Hagerman is whimpering on the witness stand at the Bosma trial.
They were all threatened within an inch of their lives and they got an eye full how it all would end!!!...If Millard had not been arrested so swiftly, l have no doubt that this was the first step of the next level and the Eliminator was going to
start paying for itself.
Just when I thought I had pretty much heard it all.....you have taken me to a whole other level of consideration.....unfortunate as it all sounds it is nevertheless, completely believable.
Not easy to read and I am sure not easy to write....thanks Brightii :therethere:
At this point, IMHO, digesting the evidence to date would lead any sane person to think that DM and his entourage were capable of anything, but I disagree. IMO, even though DM is a complex character, the rest of the murder is not. Yes, there were a lot of moving parts- but it is nothing more than many other premeditated murders: a plan, an execution of the plan, an investigation, cover up and arrests.

This heist was very different from DM's other escapades. Instead of stealing from faceless entities like landscape and construction companies, DM was going to be stealing from a real live person and killing them in the process. IMHO, even though AM and MH were ok playing scout in the past, they wouldn't be OK participating in this murder/truck theft. It was a shift from the normal gig- there was a "real live" person DM at the other end of DM's actions.

IMHO, DM was always planning on killing the owner of the truck and blaming MS if they got caught. Post murder and theft, once it hit the news he would tell his other buddies that MS did it or that he left MS with TB- DM would have had an excuse. Perhaps MS is lucky to be on this side of the incinerator because DM certainly couldn't have left him running around telling tales. He may have taken a trip to the same resort LB did.

IMO, MS was with DM because he was the only one he knew that would do it. IMO DM didn't recruit look outs- the mission was way too sensitive and besides, they were there as harmless kijiji buyers. No look out needed. The owner jumped in the truck and off they went.

I'm 1000% certain that DM is a psychopath- and I think LE had him profiled right from the get go, just not sure if MS is a psychopath as well. Regardless, MS was there and did participate in murdering TB. They both deserve life. Let's not make it more complicated than necessary. There was no 3rd person, there were no look outs. That's all we have here- 1 psychopath, plus his drugged out ****ster-puppet pal, along with his gf and mechanic who were OK with his criminal ways. The others were secondary to the crime itself, even though their ignorance and loyalty to a psychopath means the Crown doesn't have a murder weapon today. MOO
 
I don't know, but it's possible and DM for whatever reason scratched the plan.

All MOO.

How would he get in contact with them to let them know that? No phones, larger than walkie-talkie range.

What use are traffic lookouts on the 407?
 
Is that what you are speculating they did in order to avoid the surveillance camera indoors at the hangar......Was that barefoot as well.
Do you really think if a character like DM wanted to get his buddies into the hangar unseen he couldn't figure out how to do it ?

Is this another one of your Errrrors ? :hilarious:

So you're suggesting DM had the foresite to prevent his buddies from being caught on the surveillance camera, but stupid enough to get caught himself? Makes no logical sense to me.....
 
I don't think it is necessary to put you on an ignore list. That would make me closed minded because I am unwilling to listen to other people's opinions that I do not agree with. You don't need to take it as far as claiming that people believe that you are anti-police and anti-Crown, etc. I don't think that at all.

However, your argument is flawed. Let me explain it through Wikipedia. In formal logic it is called the appeal to ignorance.

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four.

Example: There is no compelling evidence that UFOs are not visiting the Earth; therefore, UFOs exist, and there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe.

Your argument is similar: there is no evidence that MH or AM were not present during the murder; therefore, they were present, and they watched it happen.

I am in no way saying you're ignorant, you make a lot of interesting points, it's just the logic in the argument is flawed.

Thank you for your reply, but you must not have read the post to which I was originally replying, as it did suggest that I would be disappointed if my theory is wrong and implied that to question the evidence we know of so far is critical of LE's efforts, IMO.

In any case, I know I'm not an ignorant person, but thanks for your validation on that as well. Others seem not to have a problem admitting to the lack of logic in the crime itself, so why expect that anyone will come up with a logical explanation for it? IMO, my theory is a possibility.

And just to be clear, in my theory, other than DM and MS, I didn't name anyone in particular among the crew or for certain as being present, although I did wonder if CN could have been there too. IMO, it could have been any number among various persons.

"and I do believe theothers involved may have included CN."

All MOO.
 
No there was no logic in the crime. However, that isn't the point I am trying to make. I'm not saying the crime was logical, I am saying your theory is illogical.

However, that is only my opinion and I appreciate you having this theory because it adds to the discussion.
 
Frankly I think DM is kind of an idiot but I think he thought those around him were even bigger idiots. Keeping in mind, this is the guy who didn't bother to turn off the hangar's surveillance video & assumed hiding it instead of destroying it, would be the better option.

I wonder why he didn't destroy it.... Maybe he was planning to edit somehow so only SM was on the video tape and use it in the future for extortion or blackmail purposes. Moo
 
No there was no logic in the crime. However, that isn't the point I am trying to make. I'm not saying the crime was logical, I am saying your theory is illogical.

However, that is only my opinion and I appreciate you having this theory because it adds to the discussion.

Thank you and that is precisely my point, that an illogical crime perhaps follows with some outside the box thinking rather than following the usual or logical trail.

All MOO.
 
Someone may have addressed this and I missed it, but - what became of Pedo? I hope he's in a happy home. Not his fault he hung out with criminals.

MH said Pedo was taken to AM's grandmother's home I believe.

All MOO.
 
Earlier today there was some speculation about the use of the white spray paint that DM had asked SS to deposit in the Yukon. The speculation went on to suggest that the white paint was to repaint the black interior of of the Bosma truck????
Later in the day I was wondering on my own what the white paint might have been used for---taadaa
:groucho:What would you use the white paint for??? :groucho:to clean up the mess you left in a white van, stupid? :drumroll:

It it was all so obvious...THE WHITE VAN......remember???

Millard traded the blue Yukon with Villada for the red Dodge Ram for a week or so just before the week of May 6.
Then a couple of days later Millard comes back to Villada and says he needs the blue Yukon again and this time he will trade him for the WHITE VAN......remember Villada was working and living at Riverside at the time....and remember that is where Noudga and Millard wanted to see the bathroom in the apartment that was to become theirs.
And somewhere about the same time Millard had forgotten to retrieve something out of the cargo area of the van but got it on his own before Villada returned the call....Villada never saw what was retrieved.
Could it be that something got stained or scraped in the white van or on the exterior and Dell did a quick spray can touch up or more ???
Remember Riverside...police tape all around ...evidence markers around the hoses ...water run in for 10 hours.

Just another layer of many many other layers .



 
We have an adversarial justice system, where each side is trying to "win." But I don't believe it is as Machiavellian as you seem to fear. Sure, each side has discussions with its prospective witnesses, to prepare them for their court appearance, but they certainly don't tell witnesses to only state what will benefit their side (whichever side). No, it's the lawyers' job to frame questions so that the information they are trying to elicit is presented, and witnesses are supposed to stick to the questions asked, not to go off on tangents of their own. They can and do say unexpected things, which can be a revelation, or a problem, or simply a diversion, depending, but normally the lawyers (and the judge) are trying to keep things on track.

The courtroom, however, is not the place for "the whole truth" to be told, necessarily. We here are curious about a lot of things related to the case, but that doesn't mean all of these are rightfully part of the court testimony. The jury has a huge amount of information to take in; it is essential that the focus must be sharp, and extraneous material, however interesting, should be saved for post-trial interviews, analysis, documentaries or what-have-you.

A lot of "character evidence" is excluded because it doesn't address whether the accused committed the crime in question; some will usually be introduced, in order for the jury to understand the possible motivations and actions of the accused (or other players), but strict limitations on this kind of evidence are imposed. So, too, are emotional digressions, whether they be remorse, anger at the accused, hostility for betrayal, shock and horror, whatever, because - and I think this is important - the trial is not about them. Hopefully some of these n'er-do-wells may sincerely repent of their conduct around this case - but their repentance doesn't belong in the trial. The trial is about getting the facts out as clearly as possible for the jury to make an informed, considered verdict.

But cross-examination is where testimony not favourable to the side which called the witness can come out. The defense attorney can be quite aggressive with Crown witnesses, ask leading questions, practically put words in their mouths, to elicit information believed important to the defense, and the Crown can do the same with defense witnesses. A lot of leeway is permitted on cross that is not permitted on direct. This is one way the adversarial system promotes fairness.

The judge also plays a big role here in determining when (or if) either side has taken things too far, and in limiting what evidence can be introduced. He or she is on the alert to prevent admission of testimony or evidence that might be cause later for an appeal or mistrial. When we hear what evidence was excluded we sometimes thing, "Bleep, the jury should have heard that and they would know what a Defendant X is," or something like that. But unless it's relevant to the crime in question, it should be excluded. The tell-all analyses can and should come later, but the trial needs a laser-like focus on the essentials.

Then, over the longer term, the fuller analysis can take place. I've always found that part more interesting than the trial process,but understand the relative importance of each.

Thank you for all the excellent information. I can only hope that Dellen's sycophants won't be helped out too much by their lawyers.
 
Thank you and that is precisely my point, that an illogical crime perhaps follows with some outside the box thinking rather than following the usual or logical trail.

All MOO.

Okay, but we still have to work with what evidence we have. If we have no evidence that other people were present, we cannot assume they were. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We can speculate about who shot him, DM or MS and why they shot him. We can speculate about their reactions after the fact. However, we can't make evidence appear out of nowhere.

MOO
 
I think DM shot TB:

- he had gun pics that were older/earlier on his phone
- GSR in the front of cab, DM was the driver
- the gun ended up with DM afterwards
- DM was charged with buying a gun
- DM bought holsters for the gun online, and I generally feel it was his gun
- DM was gaining a wanted truck; MS was gaining only what DM doled out to him
- DM was a thrillseeker, racing and skydiving
- DM smiles and chuckles in court
- I think it was intentional, but DM had bad aim.
 
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