Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Alethea Dice]

AFAIK, the perception that AM went on his own to police and cooperated has only come from one newspaper report (Toronto Sun), while other news reports simply said that he had been interviewed and cleared.... however, those articles were from VERY early on, way before much of the investigation had been completed. Personally, and imoo, I expect AM to be like the others, as in SS, MH, LW1, LW2, etc. I hope I am mistaken.

This article is from May 13, 2013 (Wasn't that even before TB's remains had been found? I am wondering how LE could give *anyone* the 'clear' at that early stage?) moo



http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2875896-bosma-investigation-long-from-over-/

I agree with you. I don't know why the Sun reporter chose those words (that AM had contacted police) because that is not what Kavanaugh said. He simply said that AM "has been identified, he has been interviewed, and he has been cleared as having involvement". The actual news conference is here and the question is asked around 4:45.

[video=youtube;fk1Zkrxs348]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk1Zkrxs348"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk1Zkrxs348[/video]

I'm sure if he didn't go on his own, Dungey will make that very clear in his cross.

All one would need to clear themself is some kind of verifiable proof that they were elsewhere at the time of the crime.

JMO

 

[Errrr]

Again, it's only reasonable doubt if your bar is set to "I need to see a videotape of TB being killed" before you'll accept the fact that the man was held against his own will and murdered. There is no grey area here. Only those who want a videotape of TB being killed will utter "reasonable doubt".

Agree, at the start of this case didn't the crown state that there was evidence of a struggle before TM was killed? I can think of two reasons for a struggle. TB could be fighting two armed guys, one of whom is bigger than himself, in order to save his truck.
The other reason is TB struggles to escape. If they just wanted the truck then why not let him escape?
I think it is far more likely they were struggling to prevent his escape.

 

[MsSherlock]

Doesn't play well with others.....:jail:

Oh I think DM isn't spending 23 hours a day in his cell- after all, he gets to get out and go to court 4 times a week. He's also got his self defence happening in the LB case- so I imagine that he gets library time or special privileges in the jail where he can prepare. By this time next month he may be settling into new digs at Central North or Millhaven.

It's really such a tragedy to see someone like DM, a guy with so many opportunities spending the rest of his life behind bars because he had such a terrible disregard for his fellow human beings. Such a waste- and then there was TB- the type of guy who couldn't even think of that privilege and a man who respected the world around him. DM's buying 20K incinerators and taking trips etc while TB just trying to sell a truck to make life easier for his family. MOO

 

[deugirtni]

I'm pretty sure there's something in law called covenant. Meaning, that DM and MS came for a test drive of a truck TB was selling. TB got into the truck because he believed they were interested in buying his truck. Period. End of speculation. They did not arrive saying, "Yo, we're here to kill you and steal your truck, want to come along for a ride?". If they did, and he got into the truck, then you are correct. Otherwise, DM and MS broke the covenant of a test drive. Once they did that, it was forcible confinement by deception. Tim Bosma was never allowed to come home after all. Pretty sure he would have wanted to do so if given a choice.

I hope you can see the difference.

With all respect, I think everyone here wants justice for TB. It seems like the Crown has an armload of evidence and is presenting an effective case. As to the matter of the law and whether a situation can be determined easily as to being a murder with robbery, or a murder with forcible confinement/abduction, it seems that not only lawyers, but even judges may disagree. So to me, we can think whatever we want, but I don't think it is such a simple determination that can be made by us, the general public. I think the end result will fare much better if planning and deliberation can be proven so that the confinement road doesn't need to be travelled. jmo

 

[brightii]

I will be hoping to hear from those members who are in attendance at the trial after any or all of these three important witnesses give their testimony. It would be interesting to see if any them go to support their friend in open court - or is that even possible? Would the DNC order allow them to be in the public gallery during the trial after they testify? This enquiring mind would really like to know the answer.

All MOO.

 

[Georgeo]

OMG, that just kind of scared me. Why today? Why now? Now I'm all full of paranoia that something has happened to cause the 'end of trial', early! God I hope nothing horrible has happened to cause that!

I was thinking the same thing! If one or both of them changed plea to guilty, that would be the most humane thing they could do for Tim's family. End the farce of "not guilty" and man up and admit you did it! But after all this time and dragging out all the testimony of witnesses, they just don't have a conscience that tells them what they did was wrong. Not religion or man made law, just a gut instinct that killing is wrong.

When end there is clearly a dead person, and they caused his death, clearly they are not "not guilty".

 

[Georgeo]

Thank you Inspector....my sentiments exactly!

. Tim trusted them at face value when they showed up for a test drive. Pretty pathetic that one cannot trust a fellow human being.

 

[deugirtni]

I agree with you. I don't know why the Sun reporter chose those words (that AM had contacted police) because that is not what Kavanaugh said. He simply said that AM "has been identified, he has been interviewed, and he has been cleared as having involvement". The actual news conference is here and the question is asked around 4:45.

[video=youtube;fk1Zkrxs348]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk1Zkrxs348"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk1Zkrxs348[/video]

I'm sure if he didn't go on his own, Dungey will make that very clear in his cross.

All one would need to clear themself is some kind of verifiable proof that they were elsewhere at the time of the crime.

JMO

Thank you for posting. Now it is clear to me that the original intent of the first degree murder charge was as a result of the forcible confinement aspect of the case. With any luck, they will be able to prove both forcible confinement and planning/deliberation.

 

[Alethea Dice]

In Her Majesty the Queen v. Michael Bruce Newman, Newman appealed his conviction on first degree murder based on the forcible confinement component. The Court of Appeal sided with Newman, and substituted a conviction for second degree murder:

from:
http://www.scc-csc.ca/case-dossier/info/sum-som-eng.aspx?cas=36524

<bbm>

This is the same case we discussed last month in regards to forcible confinement. The Crown appealed again and the first degree charge was later reinstated.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?302624-Bosma-Murder-Trial-Weekend-Discussion-6&p=12418196#post12418196

http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/un-gangster-has-first-degree-murder-conviction-re-instated

IMO, they are basing the forcible confinement on the fact that TB was killed inside the truck and, therefore, was not allowed to leave. Without any further information about how the actual killing happened, it will depend on the Judge's instructions and whether the jury agrees to that interpretation without any additional details. We're not likely to get much detail that could help that decision IMO. For example, if Tim was killed as he was attempting to leave the vehicle, to me that could constitute forcible confinement. But, if he was killed during a struggle, instead of leaving, maybe not.

At this point, I would be surprised to see a different verdict for one of the accused, whether it's first degree or a lesser charge. So far, they have not been able to prove who owned the gun or who shot the gun, how it happened or even where it happened. Only that it did happen and that both accused were there before and after. Maybe something will change in the next few days.

JMO

 

[Abitcountry]

Oh I think DM isn't spending 23 hours a day in his cell- after all, he gets to get out and go to court 4 times a week. He's also got his self defence happening in the LB case- so I imagine that he gets library time or special privileges in the jail where he can prepare. By this time next month he may be settling into new digs at Central North or Millhaven.

It's really such a tragedy to see someone like DM, a guy with so many opportunities spending the rest of his life behind bars because he had such a terrible disregard for his fellow human beings. Such a waste- and then there was TB- the type of guy who couldn't even think of that privilege and a man who respected the world around him. DM's buying 20K incinerators and taking trips etc while TB just trying to sell a truck to make life easier for his family. MOO

I am not so fond of the expression "what goes around, comes around"......

but I do love the saying " KARMA IS A B*TCH " :croc:

 

[brightii]

I was thinking the same thing! If one or both of them changed plea to guilty, that would be the most humane thing they could do for Tim's family. End the farce of "not guilty" and man up and admit you did it! But after all this time and dragging out all the testimony of witnesses, they just don't have a conscience that tells them what they did was wrong. Not religion or man made law, just a gut instinct that killing is wrong.

When end there is clearly a dead person, and they caused his death, clearly they are not "not guilty".

I hear you and understand your anger and frustration, but if both accused were capable of not only stealing a truck, but of brutally murdering TB, and then incinerating him, we cannot expect that they would suddenly become sensitive to the victim's family and do the right thing and plead guilty, IMO. If guilty, they would be dispossessed of all human decency and dignity, IMO. If they are both guilty as charged, quite frankly, they would be absent of conscience and empathy, IMO, and that is something that rest of us will never be able to fully comprehend.

OTOH, if either or both accused are not guilty, then I am grateful that we have due process by way of the judicial system. I cannot imagine a just society without it. Wrongful convictions do happen and while rare, a person's liberty is a paramount right and privilege and it must be deeply respected in law. The threat of having one's liberty taken away is a very serious matter, IMO. We all share the right of presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law.

While a trial is, without any doubt, excruciatingly painful for TB's family, and our hearts all go out to them, the process must be endured. It also must be fair and is designed to determine justice based on the weight of the evidence. I do have confidence in the system for the most part, even with its flaws. In the end, I do believe that justice will be delivered for TB, as he and his family so richly deserve. And once the verdict is read, I hope we can all accept the wisdom of the jury. I, for one, will feel better knowing that if either or both accused are convicted - or are acquitted or receive a lesser charge (unlikely IMO) - that they will each have received a fair trial and an impartial judgment.

When justice through the legal system arrives for both accused, no matter the outcome, the courageous, resilient and admirable Bosma family must live on without Tim, and in that cruel truth there is no comfort or consolation or reward of natural justice. I wish TB eternal peace in the company of Angels. For TBs faithful family, I wish them hope for the future, warm memories of the love they shared with Tim and he with them, and I wish them always the kindness of others to sustain them all of their days until they meet their beloved Tim once more.

All MOO.

 

[palisadesk]

I guess the presence of TB's blood all over the interior, a spent bullet casing rolling around on the floor, and a shattered passenger side window suggest to you that TB was having a good ole time with DM and MS. Short of a videotape showing TB being murdered, what else do you need to see/hear?

I'm not sure what your point, or if it is some kind of joke. However, my point under discussion is the distinguishing features between first-degree murder conviction based on proof of forcible confinement (on the one hand) and first-degree murder conviction based, as is usual, on proof of the murder being "planned and deliberate" (on the other hand). These are two separate things under the Criminal Code.

All the items you mention are proof that the murder occurred by means of a weapon brought on the test drive, which may (I cannot be sure) be evidence for both planning and deliberate intent, certainly IMO of the latter.

But whether those matters of evidence are also proof of "forcible confinement" is much more problematic. It is significant that the Crown does not state that it intends to prove that TB was forcibly confined, thought that does not preclude the possibility.

If you're suggesting that I don't believe Tim was murdered, I believe you misunderstood my post.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Agreed, and to take it one step further, if the loaded gun went along on the test drive, we're both parties aware?

I keep coming back to why DM chose MS to go along, rather than some of his other "crew members". He's known the others longer, probably trusts them more. Did he choose MS because he's a little more like himself, and more likely to go along with a plan such as this, or did he choose him because he feels he would have an easier time pinning it on MS given his past, should things go south? For me it's the latter. Many reporters have noted that DM isn't smirking nearly as often anymore, and is becoming more subdued. I wonder if it's the fact that the evidence against DM seems so monsterous in comparison to that against MS, combined with the fact that MS clearly has the superior representation between the two. There was one day where BD painted MS in a negative light, and Tony Dungey made us forget all about it with his cross exam. MOO.

BBM

Well they did have "matching guns"..obviously a kinship of sorts there. JMO

 

[palisadesk]

Speaking of DM and his alternate reality, I'm sure everyone here read this piece a while back, but how excruciatingly weird it reads now. Like you wonder if he had been out of touch with reality for a long time.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

It would be laughable in some other context. In this context nothing about him is funny.
But it reminded me how his original lawyer Paradkar said similar things to the press about how"all would be revealed" and the "real story" was something completely different, and on and on. I figured DM was spinning lies to his legal team and re-reading that, I'm sure of it. And, he probably still is.


Here's a quote from the article (DM's remarks are from a letter he wrote):

&#8220;Once the dust settles, once trial is over, and all information is released, people will again smile and say good things about me,&#8221; he wrote. &#8220;I really do believe this. I just have to endure this to get there.&#8221;Although both a livestock incinerator and Bosma&#8217;s burned remains were found on Millard&#8217;s animal-free southern Ontario farm, and the dead man&#8217;s truck was discovered in the driveway of Millard&#8217;s mother north of Toronto, the accused murderer writes that he is the victim of &#8220;relentless persecution&#8221; by police who are &#8220;brutally mistaken&#8221; about his role in events.
He also rails against journalists who he says have not properly investigated his case (although he ignored requests for an interview).

One thing court will be able to do after his conviction is order a forensic psychiatric evaluation. I'm betting he'll score high on the PCL-R (the diagnostic tool for identifying psychopaths).

EDITED to add a further thought: If DM was able to lie so spectacularly and his story was bought hook line and sinker by an experienced criminal lawyer (those guys know most of their clients are liars and take much of what they say with a kiloton of salt) -- he is supremely gifted in this reprehensible talent. It is, not surprisingly, a characteristic (but only one, and not a necessary one) of psychopathy. Why am I not surprised.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm pretty sure there's something in law called covenant. Meaning, that DM and MS came for a test drive of a truck TB was selling. TB got into the truck because he believed they were interested in buying his truck. Period. End of speculation. They did not arrive saying, "Yo, we're here to kill you and steal your truck, want to come along for a ride?". If they did, and he got into the truck, then you are correct. Otherwise, DM and MS broke the covenant of a test drive. Once they did that, it was forcible confinement by deception. Tim Bosma was never allowed to come home after all. Pretty sure he would have wanted to do so if given a choice.

I hope you can see the difference.

I do see a difference because I was responding to another member's question as to why abduction was not mentioned since the murder charge was laid.

Your post discusses "forcible confinement by deception" (FWIW, there is no such wording in law .. it's simply forcible confinement whether with or without deception). It does not change the fact that TB got into the vehicle willingly ... at that moment he was not seized, forced or restrained. We don&#8217;t even know if there was fraudulent persuasion because we do not know the precise words or thought processes of either Tim or the accused at that moment in time. As far as we know, they arranged a test drive and a test drive is what they went on. We can guess otherwise but we do not know. TB had a choice as to trust or distrust and the choice to go or not go with them on a presumed test drive. After he was in the vehicle voluntarily and was not allowed to come home is what constitutes the confinement.

The element to be proved to constitute first degree is forcible confinement and I have never disputed that. Period. No speculation there.

ETA: ^^ because at the moment we happen to be discussing FC, not a premeditation component.

 

[newone]

Could something like this unexpected legal argument be due to something like them finding out AM had been contacted by someone he wasn't supposed to, recently? One of the tweets said it is arguments involving all sides so I feel like maybe the witness was tampered with?

MOO.

all it takes is a call from one of the witnesses to say they or a family member has been threatened....... (MOO)

 

[Just4TB]

What this case needs is wide open truths from the 3 remaining KEY witnesses. And if there was any (hypothetical) attempts at witness tampering, that also would be great to have come out on the stand, under oath.

DM and MS friends and associates need to understand that only DM and MS (and CN in a later case) ought to suffer from a lifetime of regret.

The witnesses have no valid reason to suffer that same fate, simply by being totally truthful, their consciences can be free.

DM's tattoo is suitable warning. "Don't you dare forget"

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Speaking of DM and his alternate reality, I'm sure everyone here read this piece a while back, but how excruciatingly weird it reads now. Like you wonder if he had been out of touch with reality for a long time.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

It would be laughable in some other context. In this context nothing about him is funny.
But it reminded me how his original lawyer Paradkar said similar things to the press about how"all would be revealed" and the "real story" was something completely different, and on and on. I figured DM was spinning lies to his legal team and re-reading that, I'm sure of it. And, he probably still is.


Here's a quote from the article (DM's remarks are from a letter he wrote):



One thing court will be able to do after his conviction is order a forensic psychiatric evaluation. I'm betting he'll score high on the PCL-R (the diagnostic tool for identifying psychopaths).

EDITED to add a further thought: If DM was able to lie so spectacularly and his story was bought hook line and sinker by an experienced criminal lawyer (those guys know most of their clients are liars and take much of what they say with a kiloton of salt) -- he is supremely gifted in this reprehensible talent. It is, not surprisingly, a characteristic (but only one, and not a necessary one) of psychopathy. Why am I not surprised.

"I was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that I was a murderer, no more than the poet can help the inspiration to sing &#8212; I was born with the 'Evil One' standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was ushered into the world, and he has been with me since."
&#8211; H. H. Holmes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes

Very interesting read after I had seen a TV documentation about Holmes. This ------> remembered me of DM and MS:

During the period of building construction in 1889, Holmes met and became close friends with Benjamin Pitezel, a carpenter with a criminal past. He used Pitezel as his right-hand man for his criminal schemes. A district attorney later described Pitezel as "Holmes' tool . . . his creature."

The documentation said, Holmes was a charming nice guy who befriended with the warders of the prison he sat in and they wept bitterly when Holmes finally was executed. Reminds me of DM and his relationship to his warders.

 

[musicaljoke]

Buying the incinerator ~10 months ahead,
getting the burner phone 3 months ahead
repositioning the camera a week ahead,
packing a gun hours ahead,
deciding to pull the trigger second ahead...

All premeditation IMO

Locating the generator two weeks ahead.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Quote Originally Posted by SnooperDuper View Post
Buying the incinerator ~10 months ahead,
getting the burner phone 3 months ahead
repositioning the camera a week ahead,
packing a gun hours ahead,
deciding to pull the trigger second ahead...

All premeditation IMO

Locating the generator two weeks ahead.

Asking if the skid steer (wheel loader) at the farm would be functional.
(Time?)