Brad Cooper Pleads Guilty to 2nd Degree Murder of Nancy Cooper

[cocomod]

The argument that he was forced to plea under duress from a "Foreign" court, while true, is not really true. America is not a third world country with stiff, outrageous penalties. America is not really all that different than Canada. And, truth be told, most Canadians would not say America is foreign at all. Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water with me - MOO. He killed his wife, and he admitted to such. Moreover, he gave up his parental rights. He is no longer their family member is the eyes of the law. They will not have the choice of living with him until they are 18 not 12. Not an option to leave a family members home to live with a non-family member.

 

[otto]

The argument that he was forced to plea under duress from a "Foreign" court, while true, is not really true. America is not a third world country with stiff, outrageous penalties. America is not really all that different than Canada. And, truth be told, most Canadians would not say America is foreign at all. Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water with me - MOO. He killed his wife, and he admitted to such. Moreover, he gave up his parental rights. He is no longer their family member is the eyes of the law. They will not have the choice of living with him until they are 18 not 12. Not an option to leave a family members home to live with a non-family member.

Canada's legal system has more in common with Italy than the US. For example, Italy and Canada place more emphasis on rehabilitation, whereas the US places more emphasis on punishment. The US kills prisoners, Canada and Italy do not. In Italy and Canada, the prosecution can appeal a verdict, in the US, that's not possible. In the US a successful appeal means the entire case will be retried, whereas in Italy and Canada, on those points successfully appealed are reconsidered. Typical sentences for spousal homicide in Canada are 10 years. Premeditated murder is maximum 25 years before probation, whereas in the US the sentence is life plus hundreds of years - in some cases. In Canada and Italy, even with a 25 year sentence, many are released earlier due to successful rehabilitation. In Canada, children are treated as children in the courts, but in the US, even 12 year olds are sentenced to life in prison. Although the US is not a third world country, the legal system is distinctly different, and not something that is familiar to Canadians. Some Canadians probably view the US court system as similar to third world countries, if only because prisoners are killed (to some, capital punishment seems barbaric). Italy's court system is more familiar to Canadians. The US is a foreign country with a foreign legal system where, apparently, custody decisions are attached to murder sentences. That is distinctly foreign to Canadians, and probably all residents of the EU as well.

Brad gave up his parental rights because the only alternative was a year in prison. Canadian courts probably don't agree with decisions like that. In the eyes of NC law, Brad is no longer the legal father of his daughters. When he returns to Canada, I think he can make a legal argument to have his parental rights restored. Children can make decisions about living with biological parents after the age of 14 and they have a voice after the age of 12. At the age of 16 they can pretty much do whatever they want. I sure hope that the children have contact with all of their biological grandparents.

 

[Madeleine74]

Brad gave up his parental rights because the only alternative was a year in prison.

You have that backwards. Brad got an extra year off a standard 2nd degree murder sentence in exchange for giving up parental rights. He's no longer the parent of anyone, legally.

 

[otto]

You have that backwards. Brad got an extra year off a standard 2nd degree murder sentence in exchange for giving up parental rights. He's no longer the parent of anyone, legally.

Is it normal in NC for convicted murderers to have their sentences modified if they agree to various child custody and/or parenting rights conditions, or is that a bizarre condition that is reserved for foreigners? Specifically, is there any other NC case where that kind of condition was imposed during a murder sentence?

If the answer is no, then I suspect that courts in both Canada, and the country to the South, see the obvious problems with imposing such odd sentencing conditions. If the answer is no, I have to wonder if the Judge presumed that Canada is some sort of third world country where such bizarre conditions can be attached to murder conviction sentences and that they will be upheld.

 

[cocomod]

It is standard procedure for a person convicted of killing their spouse to lose parental rights. That would be standard in most states and I am surprised it is not standard in Canada. To assume that a man who is capable of killing the mother of his children is not a violent person is not something I would want to save my bets on. It is for the safety of the children, not as a reaction to BC that rights would be terminated.

 

[otto]

It is standard procedure for a person convicted of killing their spouse to lose parental rights. That would be standard in most states and I am surprised it is not standard in Canada. To assume that a man who is capable of killing the mother of his children is not a violent person is not something I would want to save my bets on. It is for the safety of the children, not as a reaction to BC that rights would be terminated.

Convicted prisoners do not automatically lose parenting rights.

I'm more interested in the relationship between the length of a prison sentence, and an agreement relinquishing parental rights. Is it normal during a murder sentencing hearing in NC to have custody and parenting rights in the bargain where the murder sentence length is modified depending on whether the convicted person is willing to give up parenting rights? Is there any other case where that has happened?

 

[Madeleine74]

Don't know what's normal as I've only followed a few cases in this state. Custody issues are hammered out with lawyers who specialize in such matters. Both sides had separate representation. Alice Stubbs for the Rentz family and Brad's prior custody lawyer representing his side. It was a separate document that he signed, giving up his parental rights. I expect Canada will recognize it, and knowing how thorough Alice Stubbs is, I'm sure the legal requirements of Canada were met so this voluntary termination of parental rights is locked down tight.

 

[otto]

Don't know what's normal as I've only followed a few cases in this state. Custody issues are hammered out with lawyers who specialize in such matters. Both sides had separate representation. Alice Stubbs for the Rentz family and Brad's prior custody lawyer representing his side. It was a separate document that he signed, giving up his parental rights. I expect Canada will recognize it, and knowing how thorough Alice Stubbs is, I'm sure the legal requirements of Canada were met so this voluntary termination of parental rights is locked down tight.

I suspect that if the documents are to stand up in Canada, a lawyer from British Columbia would have to be involved. There are restrictions regarding lawyers that are called to the Bar in one province and who wish to assist a client in another province. Lawyers cannot be called to the Bar in Ontario, for example, and then practice in whatever province they wish. Similarly, lawyers from foreign countries cannot practice law in Canada without qualifying, and a NC lawyer is not qualified to practice in Canada. If the documents are to stand, not only does it require the participation of a lawyer from the province in which the children live, but I think an additional document needs to be signed stating that Brad was not under duress at the time of the agreement. Without that, I'm of the opinion that the decision can be overturned.

I also wonder what this means for Brad's parents. They are still grandparents of the children. Grandparents have legal rights regarding visitation in Canada. I wonder ... if Brad has no rights as a parent, will the adoptive parents support a relationship with the natural grandparents? What if it means having peripheral contact with their natural father?

 

[JusticeFever]

I don't even like talking about the children involved in these cases, but whatever happens in the future,happens..nothing we can do to change whatever they decide, it will be their own personal decision.

JMO

 

[calgary123]

I suspect that if the documents are to stand up in Canada, a lawyer from British Columbia would have to be involved. There are restrictions regarding lawyers that are called to the Bar in one province and who wish to assist a client in another province. Lawyers cannot be called to the Bar in Ontario, for example, and then practice in whatever province they wish. Similarly, lawyers from foreign countries cannot practice law in Canada without qualifying, and a NC lawyer is not qualified to practice in Canada. If the documents are to stand, not only does it require the participation of a lawyer from the province in which the children live, but I think an additional document needs to be signed stating that Brad was not under duress at the time of the agreement. Without that, I'm of the opinion that the decision can be overturned.

I also wonder what this means for Brad's parents. They are still grandparents of the children. Grandparents have legal rights regarding visitation in Canada. I wonder ... if Brad has no rights as a parent, will the adoptive parents support a relationship with the natural grandparents? What if it means having peripheral contact with their natural father?

The law societies of the western provinces (BC, AB, SK, MB) all have an agreement in place to allow their memebers to practice within those provinces. I'm not sure why you mention Ontario because it doesn't factor in this case, but Ontario is not a party to that agreement, though its not hard for an Ontario lawyer to obatin permission to handle a case in AB or BC, or vice-versa, for example. Foreign lawyers have to go through a program which includes the specifics of the Canadian legal system and laws, but if their degree was from a common-law jurisdiction or the US, the barriers to entry are relatively low. Brad will not need a lawyer from NC once he's in Canada, he'll need a Canadian lawyer.

The NC murder conviction does impact Brad's parental rights in Canada, but even more so the adoption extinguishes them. A murder conviction in the US is not viewed much differently in Canada than if he were convicted of the same crime in Canada. His conviction can not be "overturned" in Canada. If he even tried to argue that he did not kill Nancy, before a Canadian court, he would face an insurmountable battle. Its just not going to happen.

Source: The law degree on the wall of my office.

 

[calgary123]

The bigger issue is, will his daughters want to have contact with him? While they are minors, the custodial parents will have the ability to prevent any and all contact. As adults, they can do as they choose, and frankly, as adolecsents if they choose to contact Brad there is little the custodial parents are likely able to do.

As for the grandparents, I would expect the custodial parents would allow access as reasonably requested, as much as doing so would be consistent with the best interests of the children.

 

[Madeleine74]

A lot of assumptions are being made. Who's going to challenge these documents in Canada? Who's going to pay for the civil litigation of any custody case in a family court in Canada or the engagement of any attorneys? Brad has no money and won't when he's released in 6+ years. What makes anyone believe Brad would even want to challenge the agreement he signed to relinquish parental rights? And for that matter, why is it assumed Brad would even want to have contact with girls he no longer knows, and isn't the parent of anymore? I can't imagine wanting to have a relationship of any kind with the monster who killed my mom and threw her body out like trash. In what world would children, eventually grown up, think "hey no big deal, let's bury the hatchet. You killed our mom, but it's fine now and we can see each other and hang out?"

 

[JusticeFever]

Because they may want answers of their own and want to hear first hand what he has to say .
They may want to give him a chance to tell his side of the story.
They may want to find out why he signed his parental rights over and the circumstances surrounding it.
They may want to know why that was even included in his plea deal?
They may also wonder why HC stated things that were not true at the plea hearing, when there really wasn't any reason for it.

There is absolutely no way of knowing what is going to happen, the same way if you go back and read posts here and other forums that said Brad would never win his appeal..........those were assumptions that have already proved to be untrue.
Never say never..

 

[calgary123]

Because they may want answers of their own and want to hear first hand what he has to say .
They may want to give him a chance to tell his side of the story.
They may want to find out why he signed his parental rights over and the circumstances surrounding it.
They may want to know why that was even included in his plea deal?
They may also wonder why HC stated things that were not true at the plea hearing, when there really wasn't any reason for it.

There is absolutely no way of knowing what is going to happen, the same way if you go back and read posts here and other forums that said Brad would never win his appeal..........those were assumptions that have already proved to be untrue.
Never say never..

I agree entirely.

Whatever those girls choose to do, they are not at fault, they are within the circumstances they find themselves.

But from a custody rights point-of-view.... Brad's case is closed.

 

[borndem]

I did a bit of research in the NC law having to do with terminating parental rights, and I came up with this documentation entitled "Termination of Parental Rights," which is Chapter 4 of a larger document. In Chapter 4, under Section "§ 7B-1111, Grounds for terminating parental rights," part (a) (8), it states, "...; or has committed murder or voluntary manslaughter of the other parent of the child." [page 218]

http://www.nccourts.org/Citizens/Gal/Documents/Manual/chapter04.pdf

There is a lot of detail in this document about how the petitioner has to prove whatever grounds such rights can be lost, etc., etc., but that may be how the Rentz family is proceeding -- I have no idea, but I imagine Alice Stubbs knows this document by heart...

 

[Madeleine74]

Again, who is going to put up the thousands of dollars it would take to retain an attorney in Canada and litigate any kind of legal custody petition? Brad is penniless. I can't imagine his parents are going to spend their retirement monies on a fool's mission.

I can fully understand the girls wanting answers to some hard questions someday and that makes sense. If you reread my post above, I talked about much more than that, though that was conveniently ignored.

I don't understand the opinion the girls will somehow be okay with or forgive him for murdering their mother, disposing of her body, and leaving them without her forever, which is what would need to happen, at least on some level, for any kind of relationship to form. And don't mistake asking some hard questions for an ongoing relationship. That also is being conveniently ignored. (Of course no one can tell the future, no need to bring that up again.) Why the assumption that Brad will want a relationship with the children he gave up? What is this based on?

I personally don't think the girls will ever think it was okay Brad killed their mother and be able to put that aside and let bygones be bygones. That doesn't mean they'll be full of hatred, but it won't surprise me if they want nothing to do with him ever. He killed their mom, for goodness sakes.

 

[JusticeFever]

I agree entirely.

Whatever those girls choose to do, they are not at fault, they are within the circumstances they find themselves.

But from a custody rights point-of-view.... Brad's case is closed.

Hi Calgary, I have learned not to try and predict anything any~more, after the Casey Anthony case, I think we all took a fall on that one.
But, I have seen posts and comments through the years where people have said that Brad would die in prison, and clearly this is not going to be the case.
I agree, Brad has given up his rights to the girls, but when you add in the age factors and the fact he will miss 12 years of their lives, really, what did he give up?

 

[JusticeFever]

I did a bit of research in the NC law having to do with terminating parental rights, and I came up with this documentation entitled "Termination of Parental Rights," which is Chapter 4 of a larger document. In Chapter 4, under Section "§ 7B-1111, Grounds for terminating parental rights," part (a) (8), it states, "...; or has committed murder or voluntary manslaughter of the other parent of the child." [page 218]

http://www.nccourts.org/Citizens/Gal/Documents/Manual/chapter04.pdf

There is a lot of detail in this document about how the petitioner has to prove whatever grounds such rights can be lost, etc., etc., but that may be how the Rentz family is proceeding -- I have no idea, but I imagine Alice Stubbs knows this document by heart...

Nice work, Bordem, it would seem almost automatic when a parent is convicted of murder, they would lose the rights to their children.
But, now I see the problem, it is because in 6 years or less, Brad is going to be free. The Rentz's would have to deal with this at a later time, if they didn't do it now., it seems.
But, here is one for you and it is sickening...... Raven's son lives with Raven's Mom, which means Raven will get to see him and be in his life, and Raven was convicted of manslaughter. How is that going to work?

 

[Madeleine74]

I have seen posts and comments through the years where people have said that Brad would die in prison, and clearly this is not going to be the case.

So you know 100% for sure that Brad will be completely safe in prison, won't get attacked by anyone, won't get sick and die of a disease? You can't know that. Sounds a lot like predicting the future, something not practiced anymore?

 

[JusticeFever]

So you know 100% for sure that Brad will be completely safe in prison, won't get attacked by anyone, won't get sick and die of a disease? You can't know that. Sounds a lot like predicting the future, something not practiced anymore?

I guess the state didn't want to take their chances on any of that happening either, or they would not offered him a deal. :wink: