Breaking News Archive - 20th - 26th Aug

[scandi]

There might be several hooks in this case Shelayne:

http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ushols.html

Snipet
"The American Secular Holidays Calendar

* Christmas Day, December 25th I have finally included this since it is a federal holiday, although it is not based on a secular holiday.

Scandi

 

[hollyjokers]

Hi, Scandi, it's me again...

Ummm. I believe the fateful night in question for little JonBenet was late night December 25th into the early hours of the 26th.

Otherwise, you are right. He could have celebrated BOTH Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with his family, left Christmas afternoon and been in Boulder (with a two hour time difference) in time.

Someone on Steve Huff's blog speculated that since he was possibly a car salesman at the time, he coud have used the excuse he needed to fly somewhere & pick up a vehicle. As you say he could have been with his family Christmas Eve & in the am for Santa Claus & out getting his Rocky Mountain High by early or late afternoon Boulder time.

 

[Shelayne]

If the Karrs celebrated Xmas eve, the 24th, he could be home all day on the 24th, even be there in the morning of the 25th, not leave till afternoon and gone for days and still they could say he was home for Xmas as they would recall the Xmas eve dinner/presents being opened. I am sure the exact dates and times will come out in court.

Yeppers. So in all actuality, a photo with him by the Christmas Tree holding a 1996 sign proves nothing.

Why is everybody freaking out about his family remembering him at Christmas. He could have easily left AFTER they celebrated. In our house, we celebrate the most on Christmas Eve. We go to church, come home for a prime rib dinner, and after clean-up we open presents. Christmas morning, the kids open their "Santa" presents, we have brunch, hubby builds a fire, and the kids play with their toys all day. I end up napping.

I think my husband has even gone over to his buddy's house later that day, come to think of it. I thought nothing of it. In fact, I just remembered it. I was probably napping. LOL

ETA: And if someone were to ask me if my husband was with us on Christmas, I would have said "Of course. He has NEVER missed a Christmas with us. I would NEVER forget that."

With that in mind, I am again getting a different perspective. And it was all because Scandi mixed up her dates. Thanks, Scandi! :blowkiss:

 

[scandi]

Good grief, I have always heard she died on the 26th. It was so perfect there for a minute, because I know she was killed around midnight, but I did not know that was leading into and was officially the 26th. I would have thought it would have been the 27th.

Good Grief is right, Charlie Brown!

Scandi

 

[Shelayne]

Good grief, I have always heard she died on the 26th. It was so perfect there for a minute, because I know she was killed around midnight, but I did not know that was leading into and was officially the 26th. I would have thought it would have been the 27th.

Good Grief is right, Charlie Brown!

Scandi[.color]

It still works, Scandi, it really does. Instead of being redundant here, just read my post right above your last one. It still works!

 

[LaMer]

The media keeps dwelling on the fact it needs to be proven where he was on Christmas, and the date of the 26th is used as Christmas, right? His family is looking for pictures that place him at home on the 26th. They say he never missed a Christmas with them. But the 26th was not Christmas, right, as the 24th is usually {always} Christmas eve and the 25th Christmas Day. It can fall on a different day of the week, but not on a different date. The 26th was in the 'week between Christmas and New Years.

The pageant connection has nothing to do with the need to know if he was home in Alabama or wherever on the 26th.

Scandi

OK, I got it :doh: sorreeeee Thank you Right, the two are not connected.


Take a l@@K at this! While I was searching around, I stumbled upon this: What an eyeopener! Nothing to do with the topic of Karr, but other comments made about JonBenet and her friend, Thumper.


I found this interesing, take a look at the post made: Date Posted: 19:00:16 06/04/06 Sun, posted my--not named! lol

What do you suppose they mean by the 'Pageant Book'? Would that be a program, made up for a specific pageant? If so, I guess other people could get access to them, not just the particitants and their parents.

Maybe Pedophiles too!!!!!


The poster is talking about JonBenet!

Scroll Down a bit-

Look for the post dated: -- Date Posted: 19:00:16 06/04/06 Sun, posted by--not named! lol

http://www.voy.com/43291/

Snippet-from post ---THIS WOULD BE THE SUNBURST P--I think. It also mentioned a hotel in Atlanta. Airport Atlanta Marriot. Not sure if JonBenet would've been staying there. Maybe they hold the pageants there.

It was in this hotel, in Atlanta, that Thumper Gosney met JonBenet Ramsey, five months before the pretty blond 6-year-old was found murdered in the basement of her Boulder, CO, home on December 26, 1996. The girls were competing in the same age group at the Sunburst International Pageant, though JonBenet was something of a novice, having competed only in local Colorado contests.
Susan first noticed JonBenet in the pageant book. "When you get to a pageant, you look to see who your competition is," Susan says. "I remember saying, 'That's one beautiful child.' So many kids look like cookie-cutter cutouts. Their families hire the same hair and makeup people. But she was naturally gorgeous And she was brand-new."
JonBenet was transfixed by Thumper's talent routine, Susan remembers, a rendition of a Patsy Cline number entitled "She's Got You." Playing a scorned girlfriend, Thumper yanked various objects including love letters, records, even a pair of junior golf clubs -out of her evening gown. "JonBenet wanted to know how she got all that stuff in her dress," says Susan.
Thumper and JonBenet became friends and played together. The Gosneys found JonBenet to be sweet, quiet, and unaffected. Patsy Ramsey, her mother, though mostly friendly, at one point became standoffish. The Gosneys were intrigued by JonBenet's black-and-white costumes (most pageant dresses are in vibrant colors), and asked Patsy about her dressmaker.


read on--an eyeopener for me!

 

[scandi]

By Jove, I think we've got it!

I heard today on TV that if Karr would have left for Colorado by flying at 8am, he would have been in Boulder at approx 2pm in the afternoon. And then if he would have left Boulder at say 2am and caught a flight out of Denver, he would have been back home mid afternoon that day. The TH who gave this timeline that had been checked with the airlines - actually I believe it was MSNBC staff, and they thought the timing was very doable.

I still can't get over that the media has not blown this timing with Christmas into a major reason to say it won't matter if they find a photo with John in it on Christmas Eve or Day. He still could have been there, done that obligation, and then been in Boulder to do the dastardly deed! He would not have an alibi.

They are so engrossed in their jobs they haven't taken the time to sit down and think about it! :slap:


Scandi

 

[Bronte Nut]

Hi folks,

I'm just not sure that Karr could have pulled off such a monumental operation in another town, in a house that he presumably had never even seen, let alone explored and scouted out.

One theory by the Ramseys-were-innocent set is that someone framed them, and that the killer made more than one stealthy visit to their house, during which he wrote the ridiculous ransom note(s).

If there is any truth in that suggestion, it could only have been accomplished by someone with relatively easy access to the house, and who could keep the family under fairly regular observation. By definiton, this could not have been Karr.

We assume that the police must have had some fairly conclusive evidence for them to go after Karr so openly and publicly, and with such a media fanfare; but did they?

If all they had was some mitochondrial DNA from envelope saliva, coupled with Karr having 'undisclosed case details', it was extremely irresponsible of them to make their trip to Thailand so high profile.

Firstly, because mitochondrial DNA cannot ordinarily provide enough sequencing comparisions to be considered definitive (even if the JonBenet case DNA is a good sample - which has been repeatedly questioned), and because thousands of people will have had access to unpublished case details, as investigators and their families, like any other humans, tend to blab.

Unless the prosecution have something absolutely irrefutable that they are holding back, I fear this case will turn out to be the fiasco that it has always promised to be.

The psychiatric evaluation of Karr is that he is delusional and a wannabe, and nothing about his observable behavior and past patterns suggest that he would be capable of murder.

If he didn't do it, and the 'evidential' DNA is never identified, we are back to the original situation of the Ramseys being under suspicion, despite their four-years-too late polygraph tests.

However much vitriol their lawyer may spew out at those who question the Ramseys' innocence; the fact remains that these people knowingly, willfully and deliberately hypersexualized their young daughter, and placed her in an environment in which she would attract massive attention from countless male pedophiles, like Karr, thus putting her safety at risk.

No, this does not mean that they themselves would deliberately cause her actual bodily harm, but in dehumanizing their daughter (my opinion), they made it that much more likely that a Patsy freakout - because the kid rotated her parasol the wrong way, or whatever - could lead to an accidental fatal head trauma situation, that itself bred what may have been a complete retrofit of staged evidence, such as a post-mortem garroting, the ludicrous, redundant ransom note etc.

In terms of their Press profile, the Ramseys were their own worst enemies, partly due to their curious, seemingly obstructive behavior, during the police investigation. To me, there was a callousness and an arrogance about their attitude that reminded me of Scott Peterson.

We may never know how JonBenet Ramsey really died, or why, or who killed her, but whatever the outcome of the Karr case, the police must never again be allowed to be so seemingly carefree in drawing attention to a man many consider to be merely a nut job, and who has now generated something like 14 million hits on Google already.

 

[magpie]

It still works, Scandi, it really does. Instead of being redundant here, just read my post right above your last one. It still works!

It absolutely does work, good thinking scandi! I noticed you had the days a little wrong, but I knew you would work it out.

Also, the poster at Huff's may be on to something. If Karr was working as a used car salesman at the time he very well could have said he had to go pick up a car somewhere and drive it back. I would have believed such a story had I been told that by my hubby, without question. Incidentally, my hubby has already informed me we have to do Christmas early this year because he has to work the Christmas holidays. It's nothing unusual for his line of work either. Not everybody gets the day off.

 

[LaMer]

By Jove, I think we've got it!

I heard today on TV that if Karr would have left for Colorado by flying at 8am, he would have been in Boulder at approx 2pm in the afternoon. And then if he would have left Boulder at say 2am and caught a flight out of Denver, he would have been back home mid afternoon that day. The TH who gave this timeline that had been checked with the airlines - actually I believe it was MSNBC staff, and they thought the timing was very doable.

I still can't get over that the media has not blown this timing with Christmas into a major reason to say it won't matter if they find a photo with John in it on Christmas Eve or Day. He still could have been there, done that obligation, and then been in Boulder to do the dastardly deed! He would not have an alibi.

They are so engrossed in their jobs they haven't taken the time to sit down and think about it! :slap:


Scandi

Scandi, I heard the same report. Mind boggling this whole thing with JMK--driving me nuts too. On the other hand, I keep thinking he is delusional. What about transportation to and from the airport, knowing the area, the house, alarm systems, how could he have planned so well from so afar?

I wonder if airlines/rental businesses, even keep records that long, back to 1996???

Flying during the holidays, is quite expensive, his wife stated, funds were very limited. Oh well, time will tell---I know tho, we like to sleuths it out

Well, I have to sign off--3AMsomething here :banghead:

I miss your YA YA s! (avid reader on the Natalee thead)

 

[Bobbisangel]

i have given that some thought. after hearing a boulder detective was following Karr for 7 days in Thailand, i wondered IF he got a DNA sample and it was processed AND matched, thus the RUSH TO GET HIM BACK HERE.

i know everyone and i do mean EVERYONE says this DA has nothing. but i'm starting to think
what if.....

From what I understand they did a cheek swab in Thailand. I don't know if it has come back yet. I believe they did another DNA sample when he arrived in California too.

Karr made a comment about "if the DNA doesn't match that won't be a big deal" or something to that affect. Does he know something that we don't or is he just trying to keep the media guessing or talking?

The DA has stated that there is evidence that never got out to the public that she has. I believe I heard in the beginning that Karr could tell them things about the murder that had never got into the media.

Sometimes I wonder if this guy hasn't involved himself so deep into this case that he has come to believe that he was there. There is something wrong with this guy. I mean he is really an odd person and possibly mentally ill. Maybe he thinks he was there in spirit. We know he is a pervert and has lost many jobs in different schools because he was inappropriate with the little kids. I don't know if it was just girls or boys too but he got fired from every teaching job. But was he in Boulder when this murder took place or does he just think that he was? As far as I'm concerned the DNA will either match or it won't and his guilt or innocence depends on the DNA.

I sincerely hope that he is the one responsible. I want to see justice for that beautiful little girl and the person who was so cruel to her in prison for the rest of his life. How anyone could have damaged her like they did is beyond my understanding. I would never want to see those autopsy pictures. From what I have heard they are really difficult to look at. A monster did that to her.

 

[Shelayne]

If all they had was some mitochondrial DNA from envelope saliva, coupled with Karr having 'undisclosed case details', it was extremely irresponsible of them to make their trip to Thailand so high profile.

Actually, they did it very undercover. It was kept very quiet. Someone in Thailand, after arresting John Karr, tipped off the MEDIA, who has to butt into everything, and it became the circus that it was. They had NO CHOICE but address the situation. Had it not been broadcast all over MSNBC (they broke the story), et al, they could have brought him in, questioned him, etc. possibly without media fanfare.

This case received international attention for a long time after the murder before it kind of fell off the radar of the media. It was not going to go unnoticed if someone was tipped off to the FIRST arrest of a suspect in this case. I cannot blame the DA's office for this. In the press conference, Mary Lacy even said that she had not wanted it to happen that way. I bet they were really PO'd. They had managed to have a suspect in their sites for several months, had him tracked to Bangkok, followed for 21 days and arrested BEFORE someone leaked.

 

[Shelayne]

What do you suppose they mean by the 'Pageant Book'? Would that be a program, made up for a specific pageant? If so, I guess other people could get access to them, not just the particitants and their parents.

:doh: Of course! I should have thought of this! It's like a talent book. There are photos of all the contestants and info about them, like their name and stats--I don't know if they do stats like height and weight, but they might. He could maybe get a peek, if he was there, but maybe he saw her picture in the local paper, after she won the title?

I just wanted to add, I saw a video of JMK's first wife (the child bride) and I swear she looked like she could be JonBenet's older sister. It was a little unsettling. I wonder what she looked like at 12 or 13? Her mother said they met when she was 12, married her when she was 13, but made her lie to say she was 14. He is disgusting.

 

[Bobbisangel]

If the family had written him off and given him up for dead, as it's been reported, when was the last time he was with his kids ....at Xmas especially?

We're given the idea that he was very close to the kids and never spent a Xmas away from them, so when did that stop?

I don't think that anyone in his family had heard from him since he split after he was arrested for the *advertiser censored* in California. That has been a few years ago.
Sounds like he was more important then his kids were the way he took off.

I wonder if the family is putting the pressure on the second ex-wife to say that he was with her on Christmas...for the sake of the boys? They can't come up with any pictures which is odd if he was with his kids then. The ex might just stick up for Karr even if she hates his gutts rather then have it known that her boys dad was the person who murdered JonBenet Ramsey...a beautiful little girl. Maybe she fears the affect it could have on her sons.

Were Karr and his 2nd wife split when he was arrested for *advertiser censored* in CA? They didn't live in Calif did they?

 

[Shelayne]

Sometimes I wonder if this guy hasn't involved himself so deep into this case that he has come to believe that he was there. There is something wrong with this guy. I mean he is really an odd person and possibly mentally ill. Maybe he thinks he was there in spirit. We know he is a pervert and has lost many jobs in different schools because he was inappropriate with the little kids. I don't know if it was just girls or boys too but he got fired from every teaching job. But was he in Boulder when this murder took place or does he just think that he was? As far as I'm concerned the DNA will either match or it won't and his guilt or innocence depends on the DNA.

Bobbisangel,

If you haven't already, go check out the Annie Muss Posts thread. A bunch of us our speculating about JMK being "Patricia" of the "Patricia Letters" and weaving himself into the case early and deeply. It is fascinating reading. Read the whole thing. It is riveting.

 

[magpie]

Originally posted by Bronte Nut:
I'm just not sure that Karr could have pulled off such a monumental operation in another town, in a house that he presumably had never even seen, let alone explored and scouted out.

Hi Bronte Nut and Welcome to Websleuths!

Boy Howdy! You are longwinded (and I mean that in the best possible way!), so I am just going to address this one point for now, lol.

I've seen this stated before and I just don't find it to be true the way I see things. Although the Ramsey's house was quite a maze, I don't believe that a person would need more than 5 hours to learn and navigate a floorplan such as theirs. Let me have one walkthrough and I've got it, could draw you a map to whichever bathroom you wanted to find.

IF Karr is the culprit as he says he is, and that is a big IF, he stated to the media that he arrived at the Ramsey home at 5pm and so he was able to walk the house uninhibited until their arrival at 10pm. That's 5 hours, plenty of time to learn the path he would need to take and write the ransom note, IMHO.

As far as it being another city, well I don't think this was Karr's first crime (IF he did it) and so he probably would have had a general idea how he would go about gaining entry when he got to the house.

 

[kazzbar]

Welcome Bronte Nut. To be honest I think if Karr was the 'intruder' then he probably had hours alone in that house to familiarise himself.Walk into one room, another etc.etc. then back up these stairs and down these.Would not take more than a couple of walks and he would have got it down pat( sorry for the pun)
Probably had a jolly good fossic around in drawers, cupboards and of course, John desk. Does anyone know how long the Rams were at the Fleet partay?
Maybe he even ate pineapple and tried on Patsy's clothes. O.K.I am carrying on a bit but who knows?

 

[scandi]

Great posts guys.

I feel so good tonight, like we have really accomplished a lot here this evening. And I see we have a 1st Poster in our midst in Bronte Nut {and do assume she thinks the world of either Emily or Charlotte Bronte, as do I}, so welcome to our home away from home Bronte! You're officially a Web Sleuther now, and that is a very good thing! LOL We're not usually up this late.


Where there is a will there is a way. If a burglar wants to rob you he is going to find a way. I am in the security biz {alarms, cameras} and I know it is true. You can however scare him away with a screaming siren or get his picture on a monitor. When it never works is when you forget to set the alarm!

If you take this to the next step, if a Pedo is lusting after a certain 6 year old to where his warped mind never leaves the image of her, driving him on and on to have her, he will somehow find a way to be alone with her. From all that I have read I think they are that driven. And that is scary.

So with planning and saving, I think he could have managed it. How much 10 years ago do you think it would have taken dollar wise to make this trip and get back home? $1000? $799. In 2001 I flew to Paris and back for $530.

Maybe he didn't rent a car, but used the bus. It wasn't that inconvenient if he had the time it took to do it.

Possible. I can not say it was not possible for him to be there. I am also very anzious to see how this all pans out!

One more thought before I go to dreamland. The man who thought he recognized Karr on that bus trip to Denver on the 27th. He made an interesting comment when Rita was talking to him. Wish I had a transcript so I'd be right on.

He said something like 'I'm hoping the guy who sat to this man on the bus that I thought was Karr, will hear this and remember him and call in to say, yes, I remember him because he was so suspicious!"

I've augmented that a bit, but if Rita had given him more time, he undoubtedfly would have said much more.

There is still lots of time for these 12 to 14 people they were standing with them to hear about this, remember him and call the tipline, or hopefully Mary's office. We have to keep the faith that good Karma will hold this investigation in its stead so there will soon be justice for JonBenet. I believe with all my heart that this can happen now. There is enough meat for the making ~! YaYa

Scandi :angel:

 

[Buzz Mills]

I'll tell you, you girls have John Mark Karr sneaking off to Denver, stalking the Karr home, sneaking in, doing the deed, running/biking to the bus station, and heading back to the airport, and I haven't even gotten John Mark Karr, out of Atlanta, GA. yet. I hope y'all realize you are going to have to have a DNA match to convict me, or place me in Boulder on Christmas Day, 1996. or on the day after; my alleged confession is not going to do it for you.

 

[Shelayne]

Yes, Buzz, we have been very busy.

And I am such a major :loser:! It is after 3:00, and I have church in the morning! :doh:

You guys, keep on goin'. I'll catch up with y'all tomorrow! Goodnight.