Bruce Jenner Becoming a Woman and more...#2

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...is why anyone spends any amount of time thinking about anyone else's genitals or sexual preferences. If it's not my spouse, or my parent, or my child, or my sibling, I don't care and it ain't my business. And if my sister wants to become a man, well, she doesn't have to ask my permission or approval. Are my neighbors gay or straight or transgendered, adoptive parents or natural? I don't care and it's not my business. I'd prefer to think about what a beautiful day it is, or where I'll go on my next trip, or can I get to the library or the wine store before they close.

There is no minute of the year during which I will think about the sex or sexuality or sexual characteristics of anyone*. And I hope that those who know me and my family feel the same way.

*except for my adorable husband!
 
What a fascinating thread this is. So interesting, so many views. As I’ve said before I couldn’t care less that Bruce Jenner made the decision to become Caitlyn. I really hope as Caitlyn there will finally be some amount of peace. What I do care about is some ignorant person who will say something negative that will affect a child struggling with the same issues, a child who will be hurt because of an ignorant person’s word. A child who will believe there is something wrong with them, a child who will believe ending their life will be the answer.
Nova I’d like to think maybe my cousin would not have committed suicide if Elton John, Melissa Etheridge, Zachary Quinto, Neil Patrick Harris, Ellen DeGeneres, and all of those not mentioned had been around. I don’t know though if even they could have been enough. Just a little story about my cousin. In the late 60’s my cousin married his longtime partner (I don’t like that word, it sounds like they were in business together) but any way they got married, my cousin wore a beautiful white wedding dress, no wig, no makeup, no veil, no heels, indeed he was barefoot, as were the rest of us. He never wanted to be female, but he did want to wear a white wedding dress. He looked beautiful, they were so happy for once in a very long time. Everyone was there, except for his mom, my Aunt, my favorite Aunt; still today she is my favorite Aunt. Talk about being torn! Thanksgiving was at my aunt’s house that year. In front of everyone she disowned him. She told him she hated him, he was dead to her. She never wanted to see him again. It just destroyed him. We tried so hard to help him. I was the only one she would talk to about this issue, but no matter what I said to her I just couldn’t change her mind. My cousin just could not handle all the hate from strangers and having his Mom hate him. Now my Aunt is in a nursing home, asking everyday where my cousin is. The caretakers say she’ll yell his name in the middle of the night. So I don’t know if role models would have helped my cousin, I sure would have liked for them to be there though.
 
rob said:
I come here because I consider myself (possibly foolishly) a part of this community. I like to see what others think about an issue, and state my beliefs. I can move on without it, no big deal.

The history and reasons for Johns Hopkins getting into and out of this issue are clearly stated online. Some of their experts were mis-stating results to keep the program open, but after research, the results were not so good so it was shut down. (that's just my condensing of what I read about it) In many peoples story online, they state that they were discouraged against speaking out about not being happy after conversion or deciding to convert back. If both sides of an issue are not allowed to be spoken about, can you ever really know the whole story?
The issue in itself is not what I'm sick of, but more the Kardishian way that it's being handled. I've had my say, I'll be moving on. No offense meant to anyone.
All MOO
http://narth.org/docs/johnhopkins.html

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mic...atrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

http://www.pfox.org/transgender-gender-identity/
Click to expand...

rob, thank you for the summary and the links. So the Johns Hopkins program seems to have crossed the line from healing to advocacy. That the program was (rightly) closed down isn't necessarily an indictment of transexual surgery per se, which is what you seemed to be saying in your first post on the subject.

I'm not sure what you mean by feeling you are a member of "this community". Do you mean the transexual community or the Websleuths community? Either way, I did not mean to make you feel unwelcome here and I am sincerely sorry if I did.
 
Morag said:
...is why anyone spends any amount of time thinking about anyone else's genitals or sexual preferences. If it's not my spouse, or my parent, or my child, or my sibling, I don't care and it ain't my business. And if my sister wants to become a man, well, she doesn't have to ask my permission or approval. Are my neighbors gay or straight or transgendered, adoptive parents or natural? I don't care and it's not my business. I'd prefer to think about what a beautiful day it is, or where I'll go on my next trip, or can I get to the library or the wine store before they close.

There is no minute of the year during which I will think about the sex or sexuality or sexual characteristics of anyone*. And I hope that those who know me and my family feel the same way.

*except for my adorable husband!
Click to expand...

Yes, but those who are LGBTQ or friends with someone who is, or who study gender or sexuality or fight for equality issues, do spend a lot of time thinking about those issues.
 
ScarlettScarpetta said:
Personally I think that most people who go through this think that happiness is on the other side and I think that mostly it is not. I think that this is something that we will find more about in 20 years when people who have been regender assigned have lived with it and then the after math of the surgery the life change and the repercussions are all known.

I don't know if this will make Jenner happy. I wonder if in 10 years we will still be here or Jenner will decide this was not the right thing in the end.

I think that people have a lot of ideas of what will make them happier and more satisfied but in the end they are chasing an illusion. I read a lot of stories in the last weeks about people who have gone through the surgeries and regretted in and wanted back.

SO I don't know. I do worry and wonder about children who may be pushed into this by their parents.

To me I am more interested in what time will tell us.
Click to expand...

How odd that you claim both (a) it is too soon to tell; and (b) you know the outcome (unhappiness among those who have gender reassignment surgery)!

Doctors have been performing gender reassignments since before Christine Jorgensen in the early 1950s. That's well over 60 years ago. And the available stats show percentages of regret in the single digits. What proof will you accept?
 
Morag said:
...is why anyone spends any amount of time thinking about anyone else's genitals or sexual preferences. If it's not my spouse, or my parent, or my child, or my sibling, I don't care and it ain't my business. And if my sister wants to become a man, well, she doesn't have to ask my permission or approval. Are my neighbors gay or straight or transgendered, adoptive parents or natural? I don't care and it's not my business. I'd prefer to think about what a beautiful day it is, or where I'll go on my next trip, or can I get to the library or the wine store before they close.

There is no minute of the year during which I will think about the sex or sexuality or sexual characteristics of anyone*. And I hope that those who know me and my family feel the same way.

*except for my adorable husband!
Click to expand...

If everyone thought as you do, we would all be better off.

***

For those who are worried that hoards of men are capriciously lopping off their penises to become women, that is why most reputable doctors require transgenders to live as the target sex for a full year before they undergo sex-reassignment surgery (i.e., genital transformation). That's a helluva long whim (though no doubt some people delude themselves--it's not as if our culture provides a lot of role models)!

***

gitana1, thank you for the history lesson. I see my reading on historical constructions of gender and sexuality is not up-to-date. Shame on me!

As for the courts defining gender based on physical transformation, my lawyer friend wasn't opining on where the law is NOW, but where it will end when the matter inevitably gets to SCOTUS. She isn't confident that the courts will accept "subjective feeling" as a legal standard for determining sex and gender.
 
gitana1 said:
Yes, but those who are LGBTQ or friends with someone who is, or who study gender or sexuality or fight for equality issues, do spend a lot of time thinking about those issues.
Click to expand...

As gay man who identifies as male, married to same, there is a sense in which CJ has nothing to do with me.

But politically, I have come to believe we queers are all in this together. And to quote Benjamin Franklin, if we don't hang together, we will surely hang separately.

Frankly, with the current attacks on women's reproductive freedom (and even if you oppose abortion, why should a woman be prevented from not forming an embryo in the first place?) and the attempts to roll back gay rights in the name of "religious freedom" and the disastrous, endless War on Drugs, I think we ALL should be actively opposing governmental attempts to dictate control of our bodies.
 
grammie, I had trouble reading your last post because my eyes kept filling with tears. I simply don't understand such hateful behavior as that of your cousin's mother.

I come from a family of very conservative evangelicals and they were none too thrilled when I came out in 1972. But they knew something about "family values" and not a single person (including extended family) has ever threatened to disown me. Even my elderly grandfather said, "Nova is a good kid. If that's who he says he is, it must not be such a bad thing after all."

I'm not saying there was no tension or that I never considered suicide. I did. But that was because I couldn't picture my place in society, not because my family disowned me.

***

Sorry, this is all OT with regards to CJ. So let me add this: part of the media's fascination with CJ and other transgenders is that being "gay" is sort of old hat at this point. Celebrities come out, get married, and continue their careers, even playing straight characters. A sizable majority (nearly 65%) of Americans now support marriage equality, which is a greater margin than any presidential candidate has received since Woodrow Wilson.

So for media, mainstream or otherwise, transgender is the new frontier!
 
Nova said:
If everyone thought as you do, we would all be better off.

***

For those who are worried that hoards of men are capriciously lopping off their penises to become women, that is why most reputable doctors require transgenders to live as the target sex for a full year before they undergo sex-reassignment surgery (i.e., genital transformation). That's a helluva long whim (though no doubt some people delude themselves--it's not as if our culture provides a lot of role models)!

***

gitana1, thank you for the history lesson. I see my reading on historical constructions of gender and sexuality is not up-to-date. Shame on me!

As for the courts defining gender based on physical transformation, my lawyer friend wasn't opining on where the law is NOW, but where it will end when the matter inevitably gets to SCOTUS. She isn't confident that the courts will accept "subjective feeling" as a legal standard for determining sex and gender.
Click to expand...

Well, it's much more than "subjective feeling." Legal gender change requires a psychological diagnosis from trained professionals.
 
Nova said:
As gay man who identifies as male, married to same, there is a sense in which CJ has nothing to do with me.

But politically, I have come to believe we queers are all in this together. And to quote Benjamin Franklin, if we don't hang together, we will surely hang separately.

Frankly, with the current attacks on women's reproductive freedom (and even if you oppose abortion, why should a woman be prevented from not forming an embryo in the first place?) and the attempts to roll back gay rights in the name of "religious freedom" and the disastrous, endless War on Drugs, I think we ALL should be actively opposing governmental attempts to dictate control of our bodies.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
 
Nova said:
grammie, I had trouble reading your last post because my eyes kept filling with tears. I simply don't understand such hateful behavior as that of your cousin's mother.

I come from a family of very conservative evangelicals and they were none too thrilled when I came out in 1972. But they knew something about "family values" and not a single person (including extended family) has ever threatened to disown me. Even my elderly grandfather said, "Nova is a good kid. If that's who he says he is, it must not be such a bad thing after all."

I'm not saying there was no tension or that I never considered suicide. I did. But that was because I couldn't picture my place in society, not because my family disowned me.

***

Sorry, this is all OT with regards to CJ. So let me add this: part of the media's fascination with CJ and other transgenders is that being "gay" is sort of old hat at this point. Celebrities come out, get married, and continue their careers, even playing straight characters. A sizable majority (nearly 65%) of Americans now support marriage equality, which is a greater margin than any presidential candidate has received since Woodrow Wilson.

So for media, mainstream or otherwise, transgender is the new frontier!
Click to expand...

yeah but for how long? sure its...titillating in the bruce jenner case, but he's soon to be overexposed, if not already. we'll need a couple more celebrities or people in the news to do it to sustain the movement or hype or hysteria or whatever. maybe matt damon. somebody like him. not another bradley manning .

the next new thing is the transabled movement, which everyone who calls bruce caitlin supports without reservation, which i find remarkable.
 
tangelo said:
yeah but for how long? sure its...titillating in the bruce jenner case, but he's soon to be overexposed, if not already. we'll need a couple more celebrities or people in the news to do it to sustain the movement or hype or hysteria or whatever. maybe matt damon. somebody like him. not another bradley manning .

the next new thing is the transabled movement, which everyone who calls bruce caitlin supports without reservation, which i find remarkable.
Click to expand...

BBM.

What?
 
gitana1 said:
BBM.

What?
Click to expand...

I didn't understand the post or what that meant either. I am not the smartest bulb in the shop anymore, and would appreciate an 8th grade explanation so I can understand!
 
Transabled are individuals who claim they desire to be disabled because they believe one of their limbs or a body part doesn’t belong to them so I THINK what tangelo was trying to say is either this is next to be supported without reservation OR tangelo is labeling CJ as a transabled instead of transgender.
 
Let's pretend this is a mental disease/disorder or whatever one wants to call it for one minute....Wouldn't that make one all the more sympathetic and want to call Jenner (or any trans) by what she/they want to be called? And show more kindness and understanding?
 
gitana1 said:
Well, it's much more than "subjective feeling." Legal gender change requires a psychological diagnosis from trained professionals.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. And my friend wasn't insisting she will be proven right. She was just saying she doesn't trust the court to accept subjective feelings and psychiatric diagnosis in the absence of surgical alteration. We'll see.
 
johunt said:
Let's pretend this is a mental disease/disorder or whatever one wants to call it for one minute....Wouldn't that make one all the more sympathetic and want to call Jenner (or any trans) by what she/they want to be called? And show more kindness and understanding?
Click to expand...

One would hope. But, as we can tell from some posts here, it will also prompt those who are uncomfortable with surgical alteration to call for talk and med therapy instead of surgery.
 
tangelo said:
...the next new thing is the transabled movement, which everyone who calls bruce caitlin supports without reservation, which i find remarkable.
Click to expand...

Well, THIS poster calls Ms. Jenner "Caitlyn", but I don't support surgical alteration for the "transabled". I'm not saing it should be illegal, no more than pierced ears.

But removing a perfectly good limb because of a delusion that it doesn't "belong" to you is NOT the same thing as feeling trapped in the wrong sex and/or gender.
 
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