By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[debbiegarcia36]

It helps to remember Karinna that in the 1980's, the Philippines were rife with guerillas, who used garrotes. US Servicemen in that area were trained to use them. And one of those servicemen was John Ramsey, US Navy.

I just had an A-HAA moment!

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[BBB167893]

Thanks Dave. Definitely a barbaric device.

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Ironically, it's a lot cleaner than most other methods: it's quiet, it's lightweight, and it doesn't make a bloody mess. Which makes it ideal for people staging a crime at night who don't want to neighbors to hear or risk getting blood on them. I admit, that applies to an intruder too, but for me, the key is it ALSO allows to kill without seeing the victim's face.

 

[Occams Razor]

I still think Patsy inflicted the head wound in a fit of rage and John helped with the staging, partially to cover evidence of his own previous sexual abuse of JBR. And that's why they stuck together after the fact: both had a hand in horrific crimes they did not want the world to know about. Child abuse spun out of control is, to me, the simplest and most likely explanation here. It happens, even in wealthy/educated/high-profile families. Even the closest friends and family don't always know it's happening. You NEVER know the dynamic of a household unless it's your own.

It's not uncommon for spouses to stick by the abusers rather than protecting their children. If both parents are abusive--one sexually and the other psychologically/physically--the child doesn't stand a chance.

If I'm ever proven wrong I'll gladly apologize to the R's myself. These are just my impressions based on everything I've read/watched/heard/seen over the years. I still think Burke was a victim more than an offender, but am open to other possibilities.

 

[Heymom]

It doesn't operate as a garotte though. I think calling it that is an artifact from Lou Smit and the like. They often said there were "sophisticated" knots, which isn't true. It is just a simple loop tied with a slipknot. The brush may have been tied on before or after, I can't tell.

People need to stop calling this a garotte. It was a makeshift ligature that did the job because JonBenet was already unconscious and couldn't stop if from being applied and tightened. There were no resistance marks on her neck. She was choked to death with a MAKESHIFT contraption that was in no way "sophisticated," that was just diversion.

 

[Ambitioned]

It doesn't operate as a garotte though. I think calling it that is an artifact from Lou Smit and the like. They often said there were "sophisticated" knots, which isn't true. It is just a simple loop tied with a slipknot. The brush may have been tied on before or after, I can't tell.

Agreed. If anything it looks like a boy scout toggle rope to me.

I find it interesting that as of now the votes are 81% BDI according to the above poll.

 

[Ambitioned]

I still think Patsy inflicted the head wound in a fit of rage and John helped with the staging, partially to cover evidence of his own previous sexual abuse of JBR. And that's why they stuck together after the fact: both had a hand in horrific crimes they did not want the world to know about. Child abuse spun out of control is, to me, the simplest and most likely explanation here. It happens, even in wealthy/educated/high-profile families. Even the closest friends and family don't always know it's happening. You NEVER know the dynamic of a household unless it's your own.

It's not uncommon for spouses to stick by the abusers rather than protecting their children. If both parents are abusive--one sexually and the other psychologically/physically--the child doesn't stand a chance.

If I'm ever proven wrong I'll gladly apologize to the R's myself. These are just my impressions based on everything I've read/watched/heard/seen over the years. I still think Burke was a victim more than an offender, but am open to other possibilities.

I see what you're saying. I have a relative who is LE and he believes Patsy was an over the top pageant mom who was extremely vain and narcissistic and all about image. He thinks she would have killed the girl in a fit of rage. But, I can't see her killing her one "living doll" that she took an investment in. She was grooming her and living vicariously through her.

Also how do you explain the Grand Jury finding enough evidence to indict the parents for putting her in harms way and rendering assistance to a person? I'm truly curious!

 

[Heymom]

I see what you're saying. I have a relative who is LE and he believes Patsy was an over the top pageant mom who was extremely vain and narcissistic and all about image. He thinks she would have killed the girl in a fit of rage. But, I can't see her killing her one "living doll" that she took an investment in. She was grooming her and living vicariously through her.

Also how do you explain the Grand Jury finding enough evidence to indict the parents for putting her in harms way and rendering assistance to a person? I'm truly curious!

Patsy never even spanked either of her children. I don't believe Steve Thomas' version of events - I never bought into his theory. I think that was a mistake he made based on things he either misinterpreted, or the Ramseys wanted him to follow that rabbit trail to keep the focus off the real perpetrator. Would Patsy have gone to jail to protect Burke? Maybe. Maybe John promised her he'd never let her go to jail. But I believe both of them wanted to protect what was left of their family, and once they started, they had to see it through - forever.

 

[Ambitioned]

Patsy never even spanked either of her children. I don't believe Steve Thomas' version of events - I never bought into his theory. I think that was a mistake he made based on things he either misinterpreted, or the Ramseys wanted him to follow that rabbit trail to keep the focus off the real perpetrator. Would Patsy have gone to jail to protect Burke? Maybe. Maybe John promised her he'd never let her go to jail. But I believe both of them wanted to protect what was left of their family, and once they started, they had to see it through - forever.

I love Thomas but I agree, he was wrong here on which RDI. Kolar's version makes more sense to me. John doesn't seem the type to stand by Patsy. He even ditched Beth Holloway for being "behind him in grief." The one thing I can't forget is mention of ten day vaginal trauma healing, possibly ten days prior to autopsy. And Patsy made three after hour calls to Dr. Beuf on Dec 17 yet she was struck by Ramnesia and couldn't remember why. *Cough* BS *Cough*

BDI and the massive coverup is the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[johnjay]

I love Thomas but I agree, he was wrong here on which RDI. Kolar's version makes more sense to me. John doesn't seem the type to stand by Patsy. He even ditched Beth Holloway for being "behind him in grief." The one thing I can't forget is mention of ten day vaginal trauma healing, possibly ten days prior to autopsy. And Patsy made three after hour calls to Dr. Beuf on Dec 17 yet she was struck by Ramnesia and couldn't remember why. *Cough* BS *Cough*

BDI and the massive coverup is the only thing that makes sense to me.

I think Thomas was irresponsible, he wrote about his fantasy of what happened as if it was reality. And I think he also had poor intuitions on how patsy would have dealt with an injured JonBenet. He went a long way in helping the Ramsey's convince people that the Boulder police were not experienced enough for a murder like this.

 

[Heymom]

I think Thomas was irresponsible, he wrote about his fantasy of what happened as if it was reality. And I think he also had poor intuitions on how patsy would have dealt with an injured JonBenet. He went a long way in helping the Ramsey's convince people that the Boulder police were not experienced enough for a murder like this.

Somehow he got a "Mommy Dearest" scenario going, and maybe that is what the R's wanted to suggest, to move the investigation away from Burke. But he followed the wrong rabbit trail and led a lot of people astray in the process. He should have looked in the other direction, "Well let's assume Patsy DIDN'T do it - now what do we see??"

 

[rob]

Guerrilla warfare is what popped into my mind when the crime against JonBenet was first reported assuming the killer possessed a past of being familiar with such a sinister tool. A garrote is often wrapped around a victim's neck and rapidly tightened before the victim realizes what's happened.

What blows R innocence out of the water is the housekeeper stating that she had seen one similar in the basement a few days prior to the murder near some boxes. The R garrote was already made for this purpose, possibly prior to Dec 26.

I consider myself to be familiar, not proficient, with a garrote's purpose but taking the flying leap to use a garrote to strangle my child would never happen. Did the Rs befriend assassins who were natural born killers? No. One resided within the residence at 755 19th St.

Is it possible the garrote was made for some other reason, like just practice in tying a knot or showing your son how to do it, then left lying around and used spur of the moment by the son when getting caught up in the crime itself. Could you slip it over the head, then tighten it? I'm not really sure how this type of knot would work.
MOO

 

[johnjay]

Is it possible the garrote was made for some other reason, like just practice in tying a knot or showing your son how to do it, then left lying around and used spur of the moment by the son when getting caught up in the crime itself. Could you slip it over the head, then tighten it? I'm not really sure how this type of knot would work.
MOO

As I understand it, JBR's hair got caught in the knot on the noose end so that suggests it was tied around her neck.

But it's a very odd device to use for strangulation. I've only experimented with cotton cord, maybe it works better with nylon cord, but it wouldn't be easy to strangle someone by just pulling on the handle to tighten the noose. One could use the extra cord and loop it around the handle and twist the handle and that might explain how the hair got caught in the cord on the handle- and that would definitely kill without much effort. The problem I have with that is that it's an odd device to make to strangle someone one- there's a simpler way to make a twist garrote. Maybe the device started out as a leash and ended up as a strangulation tool.

 

[otg]

I think Thomas was irresponsible, he wrote about his fantasy of what happened as if it was reality. And I think he also had poor intuitions on how patsy would have dealt with an injured JonBenet. He went a long way in helping the Ramsey's convince people that the Boulder police were not experienced enough for a murder like this.

Steve Thomas didn't think of the "toilet rage" theory on his own. Dr. Krugman theorized that because he was considered an expert on... (ready for it?) toilet rage abuse, and he thought this fit perfectly with his area of expertise when he was consulted. I know a lot of people still subscribe to this, but I don't.

As the saying goes... "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

 

[Heymom]

Is it possible the garrote was made for some other reason, like just practice in tying a knot or showing your son how to do it, then left lying around and used spur of the moment by the son when getting caught up in the crime itself. Could you slip it over the head, then tighten it? I'm not really sure how this type of knot would work.
MOO

It was all Evan's fault.

 

[BBB167893]

I still think Patsy inflicted the head wound in a fit of rage and John helped with the staging, partially to cover evidence of his own previous sexual abuse of JBR. And that's why they stuck together after the fact: both had a hand in horrific crimes they did not want the world to know about. Child abuse spun out of control is, to me, the simplest and most likely explanation here. It happens, even in wealthy/educated/high-profile families. Even the closest friends and family don't always know it's happening. You NEVER know the dynamic of a household unless it's your own.

It's not uncommon for spouses to stick by the abusers rather than protecting their children. If both parents are abusive--one sexually and the other psychologically/physically--the child doesn't stand a chance.

If I'm ever proven wrong I'll gladly apologize to the R's myself. These are just my impressions based on everything I've read/watched/heard/seen over the years. I still think Burke was a victim more than an offender, but am open to other possibilities.

Heck of a post, Occam's Razor.

 

[fruity]

I'm still not 100% sure - I was always in the Patsy did it camp, but the CBS show was very convincing. There's a tiny part of me that still wonders if Patsy was more involved but for now I've switched to thinking Burke did it. The show answered so many questions.

whoever did it, I've always thought it was a badly covered up accident.

BTW hi everyone, I've been away for a few months. It's nice to back.

 

[PositiveLight]

Steve Thomas didn't think of the "toilet rage" theory on his own. Dr. Krugman theorized that because he was considered an expert on... (ready for it?) toilet rage abuse, and he thought this fit perfectly with his area of expertise when he was consulted. I know a lot of people still subscribe to this, but I don't.

As the saying goes... "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I love that last phrase otg!

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[PositiveLight]

I'm still not 100% sure - I was always in the Patsy did it camp, but the CBS show was very convincing. There's a tiny part of me that still wonders if Patsy was more involved but for now I've switched to thinking Burke did it. The show answered so many questions.

whoever did it, I've always thought it was a badly covered up accident.

BTW hi everyone, I've been away for a few months. It's nice to back.

Welcome back and nice to meet you fruity!

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[Heymom]

I'm still not 100% sure - I was always in the Patsy did it camp, but the CBS show was very convincing. There's a tiny part of me that still wonders if Patsy was more involved but for now I've switched to thinking Burke did it. The show answered so many questions.

whoever did it, I've always thought it was a badly covered up accident.

BTW hi everyone, I've been away for a few months. It's nice to back.

:welcomeback:

Remember, the Grand Jury did not think it was an accident. They indicted both John and Patsy as if a 1st degree murder had been committed.

 

[PositiveLight]

I love Thomas but I agree, he was wrong here on which RDI. Kolar's version makes more sense to me. John doesn't seem the type to stand by Patsy. He even ditched Beth Holloway for being "behind him in grief." The one thing I can't forget is mention of ten day vaginal trauma healing, possibly ten days prior to autopsy. And Patsy made three after hour calls to Dr. Beuf on Dec 17 yet she was struck by Ramnesia and couldn't remember why. *Cough* BS *Cough*

BDI and the massive coverup is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Ramsnesia hahahaha haha😂 yeah these Ramsey men seem to get over death pretty quickly. Seems Burke could do it in about two weeks. Getting better as the generations pass?

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