By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Karinna]

You can doubt it all you want. But why would the parents not call for an ambulance, if they had come across an unconscious JBR with no bleeding from her scalp, maybe some swelling, but not knowing how bad her injury was? I'm not buying that. I believe PR found her already dead and they had to come up with the random letter to try and explain what had happened. They then followed the "don'ts" of the ransom letter as if to achieve the "beheading" of JonBenet, which, if it worked, they could claim they were so upset that they didn't know or realize what they were doing.

There are probably parents so evil that they could murder a child and rationalize it, but I don't believe that JR or PR is that evil. I think they did what they did to save Burke, since JonBenet was already gone. They made that decision so they didn't lose their remaining child.

It has been speculated ad infinitum on these threads why the parents didn't call for medical help. They were trying to protect BR is a popular theory. And as parents i think they knew how dire the situation was with their daughter when she received that potentially fatal head injury. And when exactly was that RN written? Before or after the fact of JBR's death? I don't think we know that for a fact do we?
But i think we could say the RN was definitely written to give a certain perception of what this crime was trying to point to. Even though the RN was an epic fail because of its absurdity.

 

[Karinna]

Call it a "ligature," because that is what it was. Also, the material was nylon cord, so that is accurate. The image of a "garrotte" makes the improvised device seem more exotic and professional than it was. That has worked to BR's advantage because most members of the public believed that this was a "sophisticated" device, when really, it was bit of cording with a handle tied onto the end of it.

Could you please explain your comment about the garotte being deemed as "exotic" & "professional", because it's the first time i have ever heard that.
(quote)
She was strangled using a garrote made from a tweed cord and a broken paintbrush handle. The garrote showed an advanced knowledge of knots.
http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/jonbenet-ramsey/

 

[otg]

Agree. Totally. And thank you. Because I've been guilty of calling it the G-word. So, do we call it a leash? a noose? Now I'm not sure of the proper term. :thinking: And, while we're on the subject, I do have a question. What's the term for that which was used in this device? I've seen it called "cord", but I wanted to search through WS to see if the topic had been discussed about where it might have originated, and wanted to make sure I have the right word. Maybe there's a thread. Oh my.. I have so much catching up to do after years of being away due to my work.

JonBenet was strangled with a ligature. I understand why a lot of posters don't think it's such a big deal to refer to it as a "garrote." But that word is inaccurate and it was used by Ramsey defenders to point away from anyone in the family. After all, how many people had even heard the word before they read about this case? It certainly isn't part of our everyday vocabulary. Smit (and then John Ramsey) began using the word to describe it, and then went even further by saying it was an "intricate device," or even attributing it to a "professional killer." They said also that the knots were "complicated" and maybe even that they were specific to some type of profession. All this was part of trying to make it look like something any one of the Ramseys were incapable of doing. Bullsmit!


Also, the cord that was used on JonBenet was identified. It was 3/16" nylon cord manufactured by a company named Stansport. On our sister site, Cynic acquired some of the same cord and did extensive testing and experiments with it. Here is one of his photos of the cord followed by a link to the thread that any poster should take the time to look over:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10093-Stansport-nylon-utility-cord

 

[johnjay]

Could you please explain your comment about the garotte being deemed as "exotic" & "professional", because it's the first time i have ever heard that.
(quote)
She was strangled using a garrote made from a tweed cord and a broken paintbrush handle. The garrote showed an advanced knowledge of knots.
http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/jonbenet-ramsey/

You seemed to have answered your own question but I'll just add - there were no "advanced" knots used. It was a very basic device, poorly constructed for strangulation - although it could be used to do that. The way I would use it, (with a twisting motion of the stick) it wouldn't take much physical force to do so. It is unclear how it was actually used, there are several theories. I wish CBS would have demonstrated that also.

To be clear, it's a cord with a slip knot on one end and a bundle of cord on a stick on the other end. A device very similar to a boy scout toggle rope, as other posters have pointed out. It is more like something a kid learning to tie basic knots in boy scouts or sailing lessons would make as opposed to something some seasoned killer would use as a tool of the trade. Make one and try to use it on something (not someone's neck!) and you'll see what I mean.

I can't imagine why anyone would think a parent finding their child unconscious would think, "time to strangle her with a cord." There certainly is nothing in John or Patsy's history that would lead me to believe they were even remotely capable of doing such a thing.

 

[Karinna]

Ligature strangulation is also called garotting.
(quote)
Ligature strangulation (also known as "garroting") is strangling with some form of cord such as rope, wire, or shoe laces, either partially or fully circumferencing the neck.[11] Even though the mechanism of strangulation is similar, it is usually distinguished from hanging by the strangling force being something other than the person's own bodyweight.[4] Incomplete occlusion of the carotid arteries is expected and, in cases of homicide, the victim may struggle for a period of time,[4] with unconsciousness typically occurring in 10 to 15 seconds.[11] Cases of ligature strangulation generally involve homicides of women, children, and the elderly,[4] but accidents and suicides occur as well.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangling

 

[Karinna]

And i think trying to downplay the horrific way a little 6 year old girl died by someone strangling her is just unconscionable, IMO. The whole thing was just brutal.

 

[johnjay]

Ligature strangulation is also called garotting.
(quote)
Ligature strangulation (also known as "garroting") is strangling with some form of cord such as rope, wire, or shoe laces, either partially or fully circumferencing the neck.[11] Even though the mechanism of strangulation is similar, it is usually distinguished from hanging by the strangling force being something other than the person's own bodyweight.[4] Incomplete occlusion of the carotid arteries is expected and, in cases of homicide, the victim may struggle for a period of time,[4] with unconsciousness typically occurring in 10 to 15 seconds.[11] Cases of ligature strangulation generally involve homicides of women, children, and the elderly,[4] but accidents and suicides occur as well.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangling

I agree with you that one technically can use the word garrote for this device - others here disagree with that. As long as we know we're talking about a cord with a basic knot in it, i.e. the kind boy scouts learn to tie, we get the right idea. This was no foreign faction assassin's weapon.

 

[johnjay]

And i think trying to downplay the horrific way a little 6 year old girl died by someone strangling her is just unconscionable, IMO. The whole thing was just brutal.

CBS did seem to downplay the strangulation part, which was as you say, "just brutal". I don't know why they did that - I feel it was a misrepresentation of her murder.

 

[Annapurna]

CBS did seem to downplay the strangulation part, which was as you say, "just brutal". I don't know why they did that - I feel it was a misrepresentation of her murder.

I agree, they really glossed over some of the worst parts. I suspect this is in part due to it being prime-time television, they didn't want to be too graphic I suspect.

I wish they could have gone into greater detail about the cord device. I wish they had more thoroughly examined the evidence of sexual assault (both chronic and acute), as I think that is a vastly important clue.

Poor little thing. She has been brushed aside by her family, leaving only us strangers on the internet to continue to search for justice.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I agree, they really glossed over some of the worst parts. I suspect this is in part due to it being prime-time television, they didn't want to be too graphic I suspect.

I wish they could have gone into greater detail about the cord device. I wish they had more thoroughly examined the evidence of sexual assault (both chronic and acute), as I think that is a vastly important clue.

Poor little thing. She has been brushed aside by her family, leaving only us strangers on the internet to continue to search for justice.

Don't forget two hours of footage was cut from the program.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Annapurna]

Don't forget two hours of footage was cut from the program.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

True, and I hope it is released. I just didn't want to speculate.

 

[Heymom]

It has been speculated ad infinitum on these threads why the parents didn't call for medical help. They were trying to protect BR is a popular theory. And as parents i think they knew how dire the situation was with their daughter when she received that potentially fatal head injury. And when exactly was that RN written? Before or after the fact of JBR's death? I don't think we know that for a fact do we?
But i think we could say the RN was definitely written to give a certain perception of what this crime was trying to point to. Even though the RN was an epic fail because of its absurdity.

Well we are going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. The only scenario that makes sense is that JonBenet had already passed, and from the scene in front of them, they believed that Burke would be either arrested or institutionalized for her murder, so they started the cover-up. The head wound wasn't obvious - the ME thought the ligature was the only cause of death until he peeled her scalp back and saw the giant crack and hole in her skull. I think her parents didn't know how bad it was, but in any case she was already gone when they found her.

Do I understand you - are you saying you think the ransom letter was written *before* JonBenet was even killed?

 

[PositiveLight]

I have five brothers and they were all in the Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts. It really does look like the commando ropes or toggle ropes the boy scouts used. I would never call it a garrote but some type of ligature device.

My daddy was a scout leader for 20 yrs, eagle scout and silver beaver. My brother was an eagle scout. Needless to say I was always with the guys on trips and meetings every week. My mom was over the cub scouts. It looks to me to be something fashioned while practicing boy scout knots. I think it was made a while before the incident and was just a weapon of opportunity. He was known to ramble around the house widdling wood with his Swiss army knife leaving wood shavings everywhere. The housekeeper actually confiscated the knife after repeatedly asking him to stop dropping shavings all over the house.
It makes me wonder if she was actually killed somewhere else due the the cellulose found in her vagina. Possibly where he widdled a lot and that was how the wood was found inside her. Maybe it was so small, like they discussed on the documentary, that when they inserted their finger or object, they didn't notice it on their fingers.
He could have widdled in the basement too of course. They should have been able to forensically match the wood to the paintbrush if it was in fact from the paintbrush. I would be interested to know if the cellulose found in her matched samples taken from his Swiss army knife found nearby. I also wonder if they found fingerprints on the knife.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[johnjay]

My daddy was a scout leader for 20 yrs, eagle scout and silver beaver. My brother was an eagle scout. Needless to say I was always with the guys on trips and meetings every week. My mom was over the cub scouts. It looks to me to be something fashioned while practicing boy scout knots. I think it was made a while before the incident and was just a weapon of opportunity. He was known to ramble around the house widdling wood with his Swiss army knife leaving wood shavings everywhere.

In what universe do parents tolerate that kind of behavior - whittling around the house that is? And why would they trust such a child to own a knife?

The housekeeper actually confiscated the knife after repeatedly asking him to stop dropping shavings all over the house.
It makes me wonder if she was actually killed somewhere else due the the cellulose found in her vagina. Possibly where he widdled a lot and that was how the wood was found inside her. Maybe it was so small, like they discussed on the documentary, that when they inserted their finger or object, they didn't notice it on their fingers.
He could have widdled in the basement too of course. They should have been able to forensically match the wood to the paintbrush if it was in fact from the paintbrush. I would be interested to know if the cellulose found in her matched samples taken from his Swiss army knife found nearby. I also wonder if they found fingerprints on the knife.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PositiveLight]

In what universe do parents tolerate that kind of behavior - whittling around the house that is? And why would they trust such a child to own a knife?

The Ramsey universe. The housekeeper asked PR to talk to him about doing it outside. I guess she never did. I personally wouldnt have allowed it nor allow him to play with a knife unsupervised. The parents bought him the knife on a trip.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[kanzz]

In what universe do parents tolerate that kind of behavior - whittling around the house that is? And why would they trust such a child to own a knife?

On Planet Ramsey or in the Ramseyverse, johnjay; where spoiled children do as they please and do not learn any personal responsibility or accountability.

 

[TexMex]

My daddy was a scout leader for 20 yrs, eagle scout and silver beaver. My brother was an eagle scout. Needless to say I was always with the guys on trips and meetings every week. My mom was over the cub scouts. It looks to me to be something fashioned while practicing boy scout knots. I think it was made a while before the incident and was just a weapon of opportunity. He was known to ramble around the house widdling wood with his Swiss army knife leaving wood shavings everywhere. The housekeeper actually confiscated the knife after repeatedly asking him to stop dropping shavings all over the house.
It makes me wonder if she was actually killed somewhere else due the the cellulose found in her vagina. Possibly where he widdled a lot and that was how the wood was found inside her. Maybe it was so small, like they discussed on the documentary, that when they inserted their finger or object, they didn't notice it on their fingers.
He could have widdled in the basement too of course. They should have been able to forensically match the wood to the paintbrush if it was in fact from the paintbrush. I would be interested to know if the cellulose found in her matched samples taken from his Swiss army knife found nearby. I also wonder if they found fingerprints on the knife.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

John Andrew Ramsey was an Eagle Scout. Maybe he showed Burke some knot tying techniques

 

[Ambitioned]

Do I understand you - are you saying you think the ransom letter was written *before* JonBenet was even killed?

Sometimes I have wondered because of the following. It's so confusing! But I wondered if one of the photos they found showed the pad with the ransom note, part of it, or the rough draft? Or the pad in a different location? It was enough for them to ask about it.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Picture-of-Burke-and-JB&p=1605413#post1605413

And this:

(0508-12) 12 SMIT: Just one more question. I have got a photograph here called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll of pictures or someone's roll of pictures from before, okay, and it shows, first of all, put it to the camera so they can see that. And I am going to show you that.

(0508-20) LOU SMIT: Do you know who would have taken that photograph?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely possible that I was having trouble with my camera, I think, and I don't remember doing this, but I can remember just clicking the camera, trying to see if it worked.
LOU SMIT: When was that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we got the cameras out were typically at Christmas time. But this looks like the pad frankly that I gave her.
LOU SMIT: Does that look like the spot where you would -- that you picked it up from?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my recollection, yeah.
LOU SMIT: So that could be the actual pad of a picture taken prior to what happened?
JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.

But anyway I agree with you, she was dead and it started the chain of events of a massive cover-up. I can understand why Patsy would panic and do anything to hold on to her remaining child.

 

[PositiveLight]

John Andrew Ramsey was an Eagle Scout. Maybe he showed Burke some knot tying techniques

Great point!!!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[kanzz]

Sometimes I have wondered because of the following. It's so confusing! But I wondered if one of the photos they found showed the pad with the ransom note, part of it, or the rough draft? Or the pad in a different location? It was enough for them to ask about it.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Picture-of-Burke-and-JB&p=1605413#post1605413

And this:

(0508-12) 12 SMIT: Just one more question. I have got a photograph here called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll of pictures or someone's roll of pictures from before, okay, and it shows, first of all, put it to the camera so they can see that. And I am going to show you that.

(0508-20) LOU SMIT: Do you know who would have taken that photograph?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely possible that I was having trouble with my camera, I think, and I don't remember doing this, but I can remember just clicking the camera, trying to see if it worked.
LOU SMIT: When was that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we got the cameras out were typically at Christmas time. But this looks like the pad frankly that I gave her.
LOU SMIT: Does that look like the spot where you would -- that you picked it up from?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my recollection, yeah.
LOU SMIT: So that could be the actual pad of a picture taken prior to what happened?
JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.

But anyway I agree with you, she was dead and it started the chain of events of a massive cover-up. I can understand why Patsy would panic and do anything to hold on to her remaining child.

This is the first time I've seen anything about this. Just wow. It has me wondering so many things. The way the question was phrased to PR, it would lead a person to believe it was a photo from before Christmas.. but maybe not.

16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.

Am I right to assume that we never found out what those pictures were?