By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

By Accident or on Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

  • An Intruder Killed JonBenet and Covered Up the Crime

    Votes: 38 7.1%
  • Patsy Ramsey Acted Alone in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 23 4.3%
  • John Ramsey Acted Alone in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 4 0.7%
  • Burke Killed JonBenet with Patsy and John Helping to Cover Up the Crime

    Votes: 394 73.4%
  • John and Patsy Acted Together in Killing JonBenet and Covering Up the Crime

    Votes: 30 5.6%
  • Other/I Don't Know

    Votes: 48 8.9%

  • Total voters
    537
Okay. Now, this is where I draw the line ~ :thinking:

A child is bashed in the head but the strangulation that killed her was a cover up.

For what, may I ask, was being covered up?

The head bash I don't think was accidental. But this is where it gets tricky. If Burke bashed her head in, then the parents applied the garrote as a means to point to an intruder, that act is indeed staging but technically it is also what killed her.

People who are BDI seem to overlook this point. Yes it was Burke that inflicted the mortal blow, and yes he was too young to be prosecuted, but if it were John that fashioned the garrotte, and I think he very likely did, there still is a chance that he could be prosecuted for the actual murder.
 
It is possible that PR killed JBR intentionally as sacrificial gift to Jesus on his birthday to thank him for his sacrifice and for saving her from cancer.

Anything is possible.
 
The head bash I don't think was accidental. But this is where it gets tricky. If Burke bashed her head in, then the parents applied the garrote as a means to point to an intruder, that act is indeed staging but technically it is also what killed her.

People who are BDI seem to overlook this point. Yes it was Burke that inflicted the mortal blow, and yes he was too young to be prosecuted, but if it were John that fashioned the garrotte, and I think he very likely did, there still is a chance that he could be prosecuted for the actual murder.

andreww.
Nope, the head bash could not be accidental, else why bother with all the staging, leaving yourself open to Murder 1 charges?

Other than a confession, I cannot see anyone being being charged with JonBenet's death, there is no smoking gun, so how does the prosecutor nail the case?

Some accessory related charge seems to be the best course on dealing with JR.

Could you imagine the publicity if he were to appear in court on any JonBenet related charge?

The Tabloids and TV would have a field day.

.
 
It is possible that PR killed JBR intentionally as sacrificial gift to Jesus on his birthday to thank him for his sacrifice and for saving her from cancer.

Anything is possible.
That definitely implies premeditation.


Those PDI theories of a religious sacrifice and that whole Prime of Miss Jean Brodie thing are bizarre. You basically have to use the Hubble telescope to view the Deep Field to detect anything realistic about it but some of it does make sense. My main problem with it(besides it being outlandish in general), is that its simply too complicated and requires you to connect so many dots that may not even exist in the first place. They're trawling a net full of red herrings and claiming they're serving up halibut filets. You must also take every single coincidence and somehow loop them in Patsy's direction.

I'm more inclined to believe Patsy was an unstable, middle aged cancer survivor, abuser of prescription drugs who was suffering a mid life crisis of sorts and knew the sand in her hourglass was running out. She was living a life in a whirlwind of dysfunctional chaos, living vicariously through her young beautiful daughter she was molding into a miniature version of herself, a perfect marriage on the surface that was likely anything but perfect, an awkward son who may have been slipping through the cracks due to so much focus on Jonbenet, and then add the cherry on top of the strong possibility one or both children had been suffering from sexual abuse on a regular basis.

Patsy was the aging beauty queen who is fading from existence. Jonbenet was young, full of promise, and had an entire lifetime ahead of her. A vicarious link can bring out envy, jealousy, and even rage. How dare she get to be so beautiful, happy, carefree, and draw the attention of boys and light up a room! That should be me damnit!

I cant even imagine the mindset of Jonbenet and the confusion she must have felt. On one hand she is acting very mature, assertive, confident, etc. but on the other hand she is regressing at the same time. A girl who has the charisma and courage to perform in front of hundreds of people at a mall or pageant doesn't even know how to wipe herself. A girl who is so confident(some may call it arrogant) that she will order adults around and tell people where they can sit in the car is incapable of reading her own name on a gift tag.

Her priorities were all out of whack. None of this is her fault. This quirky personality coming to the surface is Patsy's creation and due to the environment she lived in. She is learning quickly that her looks are what matter and open all doors. Education has taken a back seat and may not have even been much of a factor at all.

The housekeeper's descriptions of Patsy taking Jonbenet to the bathroom and then she hears Jonbenet screaming are disturbing. Supposedly John and Patsy did not spank their children. Obviously this is where the corporal cleansing theory of Thomas comes in but if he's wrong, what else is she doing to her in there? There are very few options.....none of them paint a picture of family bliss. Is it corporal cleansing, some other abuse(sexual?), or Patsy venting rage in general at Jonbenet?

The irony of any such negative feelings towards Jonbenet would be that its Patsy herself responsible for creating and molding the person she now covets.

There appear to be multiple layers to this family's dysfunction. All the issues with Jonbenet, Burke is acting out as well, both adults drink and least one of them is using drugs, and IMO this house was no stranger to domestic quarrels.

A perfect storm was in the forecast. IMO even if she wasn't murdered Christmas night, something tragic was eventually going to happen in this family. I believe the people in their circle knew this as well. Kinda interesting how just when their clique is considering an intervention of sorts over the "mega Jonbenet" issue, she winds up dead.

On the surface the crime is a paradox within a paradox thanks mainly to the staging but underneath it all....what I see is a dysfunctional family in the midst of domestic violence and it went too far. The abuse could have been a motive or had absolutely nothing to do with it. This issue needed to be investigated more thoroughly because it just muddies already muddy water and could be a red herring as far as murder is concerned or be the key that unravels the mystery.

Patsy didn't need to offer up her six year old daughter as a sacrifice to Jesus or be obsessed with the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie to have killed Jonbenet. Such theories are just way too complicated. Those types of scenarios happen in movies. This wasn't a movie.
 
The only reason - as far as I can see - for any staging at all - is to cover up the hideous strangulation, which was the first thing the parents would have seen, after BR had finished with her. The garrotting, or whatever you'd like to call it, could have been done by BR as well, or possibly - and for my money, less likely - by the parents.

I cannot for the life of me, envisage a parent strangling their child to cover up a head blow (which wasn't visible anyhow). They could easily have talked their way out of the head blow.
 
The only reason - as far as I can see - for any staging at all - is to cover up the hideous strangulation, which was the first thing the parents would have seen, after BR had finished with her. The garrotting, or whatever you'd like to call it, could have been done by BR as well, or possibly - and for my money, less likely - by the parents.

I cannot for the life of me, envisage a parent strangling their child to cover up a head blow (which wasn't visible anyhow). They could easily have talked their way out of the head blow.


Miz Adventure.
ITA. My money is on some kind of strangulation being covered by the ligature and paintbrush.

If you give it some passing thought similar to that offered on the ransom note, then patently the ligature and paintbrush device has been staged.

The 64K Dollar Q is did BR use a ligature?

Trivia:
I never knew this but a lot of the early US quiz shows were fixed in advance, to make them more exciting for the viewer, and keep the ratings climbing.

The show: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? (UK game show), is a descendant from the original 64K Dollar show.
 
The head bash I don't think was accidental. But this is where it gets tricky. If Burke bashed her head in, then the parents applied the garrote as a means to point to an intruder, that act is indeed staging but technically it is also what killed her.

People who are BDI seem to overlook this point. Yes it was Burke that inflicted the mortal blow, and yes he was too young to be prosecuted, but if it were John that fashioned the garrotte, and I think he very likely did, there still is a chance that he could be prosecuted for the actual murder.
BBM

I'm confused, because I'm BDI but I do not think he hit her in the head and then PR &/or JR strangled JB. I think BR probably did it all: i.e. he both bludgeoned and strangled her.

I just assume "BDI" to mean "BR murdered JBR". But as singularity pointed out a couple of days ago, that isn't everyone's interpretation.

The head blow would have been mortal, but it wasn't. The person who ligature strangled JB killed her. That person did it.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that JR can still be charged - an accessory charged as a principal.
 
That definitely implies premeditation.


Those PDI theories of a religious sacrifice and that whole Prime of Miss Jean Brodie thing are bizarre. You basically have to use the Hubble telescope to view the Deep Field to detect anything realistic about it but some of it does make sense. My main problem with it(besides it being outlandish in general), is that its simply too complicated and requires you to connect so many dots that may not even exist in the first place. They're trawling a net full of red herrings and claiming they're serving up halibut filets. You must also take every single coincidence and somehow loop them in Patsy's direction.

I'm more inclined to believe Patsy was an unstable, middle aged cancer survivor, abuser of prescription drugs who was suffering a mid life crisis of sorts and knew the sand in her hourglass was running out. She was living a life in a whirlwind of dysfunctional chaos, living vicariously through her young beautiful daughter she was molding into a miniature version of herself, a perfect marriage on the surface that was likely anything but perfect, an awkward son who may have been slipping through the cracks due to so much focus on Jonbenet, and then add the cherry on top of the strong possibility one or both children had been suffering from sexual abuse on a regular basis.

Patsy was the aging beauty queen who is fading from existence. Jonbenet was young, full of promise, and had an entire lifetime ahead of her. A vicarious link can bring out envy, jealousy, and even rage. How dare she get to be so beautiful, happy, carefree, and draw the attention of boys and light up a room! That should be me damnit!

I cant even imagine the mindset of Jonbenet and the confusion she must have felt. On one hand she is acting very mature, assertive, confident, etc. but on the other hand she is regressing at the same time. A girl who has the charisma and courage to perform in front of hundreds of people at a mall or pageant doesn't even know how to wipe herself. A girl who is so confident(some may call it arrogant) that she will order adults around and tell people where they can sit in the car is incapable of reading her own name on a gift tag.

Her priorities were all out of whack. None of this is her fault. This quirky personality coming to the surface is Patsy's creation and due to the environment she lived in. She is learning quickly that her looks are what matter and open all doors. Education has taken a back seat and may not have even been much of a factor at all.

The housekeeper's descriptions of Patsy taking Jonbenet to the bathroom and then she hears Jonbenet screaming are disturbing. Supposedly John and Patsy did not spank their children. Obviously this is where the corporal cleansing theory of Thomas comes in but if he's wrong, what else is she doing to her in there? There are very few options.....none of them paint a picture of family bliss. Is it corporal cleansing, some other abuse(sexual?), or Patsy venting rage in general at Jonbenet?

The irony of any such negative feelings towards Jonbenet would be that its Patsy herself responsible for creating and molding the person she now covets.

There appear to be multiple layers to this family's dysfunction. All the issues with Jonbenet, Burke is acting out as well, both adults drink and least one of them is using drugs, and IMO this house was no stranger to domestic quarrels.

A perfect storm was in the forecast. IMO even if she wasn't murdered Christmas night, something tragic was eventually going to happen in this family. I believe the people in their circle knew this as well. Kinda interesting how just when their clique is considering an intervention of sorts over the "mega Jonbenet" issue, she winds up dead.

On the surface the crime is a paradox within a paradox thanks mainly to the staging but underneath it all....what I see is a dysfunctional family in the midst of domestic violence and it went too far. The abuse could have been a motive or had absolutely nothing to do with it. This issue needed to be investigated more thoroughly because it just muddies already muddy water and could be a red herring as far as murder is concerned or be the key that unravels the mystery.

Patsy didn't need to offer up her six year old daughter as a sacrifice to Jesus or be obsessed with the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie to have killed Jonbenet. Such theories are just way too complicated. Those types of scenarios happen in movies. This wasn't a movie.

singularity,
You are spot on with the dysfunctional family part. I reckon both JR and PR were simply unaccustomed to their realized wealth, and in their attempt to play the part ended up neglecting their children?

I do think BR was jealous of JonBenet, not only that, it must have been obvious that Patsy prioritized JonBenet over BR, e.g. she gets extra tuition, dance classes, nice clothes, trips to other cities, etc, what does BR get ?

It might be due to medical diagnosis Patsy has written BR off, discounted any potential, and decides to focus on JonBenet, who definitely exhibits some smarts?

Religious sacrifice I do not buy, that kind of theory appeals to a particular mindset. Alike the Great Man of History appeals to another mindset, e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.

If the case were PDI then Patsy would have known to cleanup the breakfast table, to make sure there were size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer and to dress JonBenet in a female pair of long johns.

JR has the opposite problem he is left to explain away events down in the basement, and although we know not their genesis, we know they probably had nothing to do with JR and everything to do with BR?

So what we have to do is refute Kolars BDI All, even demonstrating that BR was a normal healthy nine year old would do the trick?

.
 
My money is on some kind of strangulation being covered by the ligature and paintbrush.
I agree to an extent but not sure how bad the previous strangulation was. Of course most think this is hogwash but I think she was strangled during the initial attack and it wasn't with that specific ligature.

We have no proof to back this opinion up of course.......it's just a hunch.

Trivia:
I never knew this but a lot of the early US quiz shows were fixed in advance, to make them more exciting for the viewer, and keep the ratings climbing.

UK....

I highly recommend the movie Quiz Show. It deserved an Oscar for Best Picture IMO.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/

If you give it some passing thought similar to that offered on the ransom note, then patently the ligature and paintbrush device has been staged.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care to elaborate?



The 64K Dollar Q is did BR use a ligature?
No. :pillowfight2:


edit: I just now saw your response to my post above UK. I have to go somewhere but will respond when I get back home.
 
BBM

I'm confused, because I'm BDI but I do not think he hit her in the head and then PR &/or JR strangled JB. I think BR probably did it all: i.e. he both bludgeoned and strangled her.

I just assume "BDI" to mean "BR murdered JBR". But as singularity pointed out a couple of days ago, that isn't everyone's interpretation.

The head blow would have been mortal, but it wasn't. The person who ligature strangled JB killed her. That person did it.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that JR can still be charged - an accessory charged as a principal.
I thought the head blow would eventually be fatal. But because of gasping noises ? she was strangled.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
 
I thought the head blow would eventually be fatal. But because of gasping noises ? she was strangled.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
The head blow would have eventually been fatal without medical intervention (and probably even with it). But we don't really know why she was strangled - except that it was done to kill her. And we can only speculate about what her breathing pattern was at that time.
 
The head bash I don't think was accidental. But this is where it gets tricky. If Burke bashed her head in, then the parents applied the garrote as a means to point to an intruder, that act is indeed staging but technically it is also what killed her.

People who are BDI seem to overlook this point. Yes it was Burke that inflicted the mortal blow, and yes he was too young to be prosecuted, but if it were John that fashioned the garrotte, and I think he very likely did, there still is a chance that he could be prosecuted for the actual murder.

"Accidental" can mean different things. Clearly, the person who hit her over the head that hard intended to hit her over the head knowing that would hurt her. But did that person intend to inflict a mortal or even very serious blow? We can't know, but I think if the culprit were a child, as I believe it was, it's possible he impulsively hit her out of anger, not intending to hurt her as badly as he did. An adult would surely know before the strike what a whack like that would do to her; a not quite 10 year old might not. It's very easy for me to envision that the head blow was done by an angry little brat like Burke. It's much harder for me to imagine otherwise non-physically abusive (as far as anyone knows) parents suddenly doing something like that to a tiny girl. Whether it was over Christmas presents, pineapple, a simple argument that triggered underlying simmering rage, who knows, but Burke to me is by far the most obvious candidate here.

The strangulation is the far more fascinating and puzzling aspect of this case. There is no question that was intentional, and it's a fair bet it was done to end her life. But some thought and cunning went into it and it's hard to know if it was just a way to kill her, a way to stage the entire event, or a combination of both. I lean towards a combination of both.

[FONT=&quot]Could the boy have done it as well? I suppose it's very possible, but given the staging that we know was not done by him (the ransom note) here I lean towards this being another feature of staging most likely done by an adult. The curious thing is that the ransom note, bizarre though it is, tries to pose this as a straightforward kidnapping, partly out of anger over John's business practices and partly for the money. It doesn't come off sounding like a sexually sadistic pedophile. The basement staging, on the other hand, is done to make it look like a sexually sadistic pedophile. Two stagers on two very different pages? It's pretty clear Patsy wrote the note, so she's Stager 1. Does this make John the Basement Stager?[/FONT]
 
Burke. He seemed to suffer from something. The fecal issues. Drove to the brink by parents or lack of They felt they needed to cover it and they had the pull in town to make sure it was.
 
"[FONT=&amp]Two stagers on two very different pages? It's pretty clear Patsy wrote the note, so she's Stager 1. Does this make John the Basement Stager?[/FONT]

I'm leaning that way considering that fiber evidence in the crotch area. Plus, "Listen carefully!" sounds like John telling PR what to do from the basement phone as she sits in the kitchen. I'm sure there's more that point to John being in the basement area. Perhaps gleaning movie lines from the posters for inspiration? Smoking cigars? Tearing packages open for the size 12 Bloomis? I could go on and on.

Could be why BOTH parents got the indictments?
 
I'm leaning that way considering that fiber evidence in the crotch area. Plus, "Listen carefully!" sounds like John telling PR what to do from the basement phone as she sits in the kitchen.
I don't know if John dictated any part of the note; most of it sounds like Patsy rambling on her own desperately trying to sell a straightforward kidnapping. But I can see her getting the first line from something he said to her. "Listen carefully!" does sound like something a more clear headed person would say to a more frantic one during a time-sensitive crisis. The disconnect in the staging seems very telling though.

I wonder who decorated the train room with all the movie posters. Given the condition of the basement at the time of the crime, the posters probably went up during a more organized time; perhaps when they first moved in and before Burke took it over. Somehow I can't see John taking any interest in decorating a basement room.
 
I don't know if John dictated any part of the note; most of it sounds like Patsy rambling on her own desperately trying to sell a straightforward kidnapping. But I can see her getting the first line from something he said to her. "Listen carefully!" does sound like something a more clear headed person would say to a more frantic one during a time-sensitive crisis. The disconnect in the staging seems very telling though.

Excellent point. Almost like a nagging wife. Use that good Southern sense John! Be well rested! It's up to you now John! Perhaps "Listen carefully!" is also from a movie.

I wonder who decorated the train room with all the movie posters. Given the condition of the basement at the time of the crime, the posters probably went up during a more organized time; perhaps when they first moved in and before Burke took it over. Somehow I can't see John taking any interest in decorating a basement room.

I wondered too. Could they have come with the house?
 
The head bash I don't think was accidental. But this is where it gets tricky. If Burke bashed her head in, then the parents applied the garrote as a means to point to an intruder, that act is indeed staging but technically it is also what killed her.

People who are BDI seem to overlook this point. Yes it was Burke that inflicted the mortal blow, and yes he was too young to be prosecuted, but if it were John that fashioned the garrotte, and I think he very likely did, there still is a chance that he could be prosecuted for the actual murder.

Probably the exact reason why the GJ wanted to indict the Rs for child endangerment, as they knew they were covering for B after the hard blow to the head, that IMO, knocked her out cold.
 
I wondered too. Could they have come with the house?
Possibly. I believe the movies were all old enough to pre-date their move into the house, at least the ones that could be seen. The movie references in the ransom note would seem to indicate the writer was a film buff. Coincidence?
 
singularity,
You are spot on with the dysfunctional family part. I reckon both JR and PR were simply unaccustomed to their realized wealth, and in their attempt to play the part ended up neglecting their children?
Unaccustomed to or so full of themselves and their pet projects they fail to deal with the big picture?


I do think BR was jealous of JonBenet, not only that, it must have been obvious that Patsy prioritized JonBenet over BR, e.g. she gets extra tuition, dance classes, nice clothes, trips to other cities, etc, what does BR get ?
That's a loaded question for several reasons. You ask what does Burke get? What does Burke want? Many believe he is autistic, has ADHD, or a list of other disorders. Maybe he likes solitude and has no desire for much interaction with other children and prefers the adults in his life to leave him alone. Burke is the enigma in this family equation because we don't know enough about him. If he's truly autistic, there are so many levels of it. I doubt he is on the level of Rain Man going by what little footage we have seen of him and even if he is not autistic, there's clearly something a bit odd going on. He might just be antisocial, shy, and IMO he might be a victim of abuse.

While I have viewed the Burke footage and read the interviews like everyone else, something stuck out to me last night while checking out the shakedown site. THis must have slipped by me the first time I saw it but it waved a red flag last night....

attachment.php



What would you fight with your sister about?

Burke: Um...Ah.....about not wanting her to play video games.

You don't like to share with her?

Burke: I-- cause I just don't like the music, it's like de, de, da, de, de, de, de so




He clearly hates the repetitive music of video games. Nowadays a lot of games have real music from actual bands/artists but in the 90s, a lot of games had some irritating sound effects that was just a continuous wall of noise on a loop. Different levels would feature some different music and this comment from Burke reinforces my earlier point about Jonbenet being too young to play most Nintendo games. She would keep "dying" on the first level, so this means Burke(or anyone in the room) would continually have to hear that same audio over and over and over again.

Since he only had the N64 for mere hours before the murder, he is clearly talking about the NES. The most played game on NES was Super Mario Bros. Since Jonbenet likely would never pass the first level, for those of you who never played Nintendo, here is the first level and listen to the sound effects....

[video=youtube;PsC0zIhWNww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsC0zIhWNww[/video]


Did Burke actually prefer to play video games with the TV on mute? That would be very strange to say the least. Which leads to the question....why? Is this something that people with various disorders suffer from? Did something ever happen to him while playing video games and the music is a potential trigger? No way to really answer this I suppose. Did he simply hate HER playing it?


It might be due to medical diagnosis Patsy has written BR off, discounted any potential, and decides to focus on JonBenet, who definitely exhibits some smarts?
If he is the odd duckling, its not surprising that Patsy would focus most of her attention on Jonbenet when going into remission. She could mold Jonbenet into whatever Patsy wanted her to be. Going by the history of Patsy's family, JOnbenet's future was set in stone whether she liked it or not. Its unfortunate we can never know how much she truly enjoyed doing the pageants.

She may not have "discounted his potential" but simply cast him aside as her own interests were not going to be able to include Burke. Maybe she expected John to pick up the slack as far as Burke goes and there are signs they shared some interests.

If the case were PDI then Patsy would have known to cleanup the breakfast table, to make sure there were size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer and to dress JonBenet in a female pair of long johns.
Obviously I disagree with that and even if I weren't PDI, I wouldn't have an issue with that table not being cleaned up. So much chaos in the house that night and I'm sure that bowl of pineapple and two glasses were not high priority. It may not even have crossed anyones mind.

We know she would occasionally wear Burke's old clothing, some female WS members have also said they've done the same thing in childhood so I don't consider the long johns to be a huge issue. There's a variety of reasons discussed for the use of the size 12s and those panties don't rule anyone in or out. Each "DI" could make a case for them.

JR has the opposite problem he is left to explain away events down in the basement, and although we know not their genesis, we know they probably had nothing to do with JR and everything to do with BR?
JOhn is going to be down there staging whether its JDI, PDI, or BDI. He certainly took huge risks going back down there after 6 am and while many facts show that an intruder never existed, the simple fact John repeatedly goes down there and goes off the grid IMO is the smoking gun as far as no IDI is concerned.

Fathers of murder victims do not stage basements for strangers who murder their children.


So what we have to do is refute Kolars BDI All, even demonstrating that BR was a normal healthy nine year old would do the trick?
Even if I were to get remotely close to believing BDI, I could never fall in line with Kolar's version. he basically places it all on Burke. IMO if Burke did have something to do with it, he bludgeoned her and that's when he exits stage left of this equation. Patsy and/or John take over from there and Burke is sent to her room.

I wanted to go into more detail on Kolar and refuting BDI All but someone just came over. We'll revisit that issue later.


Merry Christmas everyone!
 

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The house keeper knew the white blanket was in the dryer, knew the layout of the house, knew what clothing was in what drawers, had a key and was the last person to handle the paint brush set. SBTC could stand for STRANGLED BY THE CLEANER
 

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