By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Razz]

Here's what I think FWIW. I agree that it would be very unusual to cover up an accident to make it look like murder. There is too much chance that those doing the coverup could be accused of murder (as the Ramseys were by the public). If either parent had only found JBR unconscious from the head blow, I think they would have called 911 immediately, hoping to save her, and said it was a terrible accident. No one could prove it wasn't. The fact that they covered up tells me that it was clear that she had also been strangled with the garotte, so they knew she was dead and that it wasn't an accident. At that point the coverup to save Burke commenced. While the initial blow to JBR's head may have been an accident, the garotte makes it clear to me that this was not an accident at least from that point on. I really don't see either JR or PR using the garotte in a coverup, especially using part of PR's paintbrush.

Another thought to add...I know it's pretty universally accepted that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. Did anyone ever get handwriting samples from Burke? I really don't think it's beyond the ability of a bright and probably linguistically precocious 10 year old to write. He may have even seen the movies some of the expressions came from. Writing a ransom note seems more like something a ten year old would do than Patsy attempting a coverup. I realize the CBS show considered Patsy the writer and I'm probably defying logic, but I just wonder.

Yes, they did have samples of Burke's handwriting.

I found a good deal of information in "The Bonita Papers". Go to Google and type that in.

It's rather lengthy but the layout
and the way it reads is much better than most of the books I've read. And it is very informative.

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[Heymom]

Here's what I think FWIW. I agree that it would be very unusual to cover up an accident to make it look like murder. There is too much chance that those doing the coverup could be accused of murder (as the Ramseys were by the public). If either parent had only found JBR unconscious from the head blow, I think they would have called 911 immediately, hoping to save her, and said it was a terrible accident. No one could prove it wasn't. The fact that they covered up tells me that it was clear that she had also been strangled with the garotte, so they knew she was dead and that it wasn't an accident. At that point the coverup to save Burke commenced. While the initial blow to JBR's head may have been an accident, the garotte makes it clear to me that this was not an accident at least from that point on. I really don't see either JR or PR using the garotte in a coverup, especially using part of PR's paintbrush.

Another thought to add...I know it's pretty universally accepted that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. Did anyone ever get handwriting samples from Burke? I really don't think it's beyond the ability of a bright and probably linguistically precocious 10 year old to write. He may have even seen the movies some of the expressions came from. Writing a ransom note seems more like something a ten year old would do than Patsy attempting a coverup. I realize the CBS show considered Patsy the writer and I'm probably defying logic, but I just wonder.

The idea of PR or JR using the cord to "finish off" JBR has always bothered me. I really believe now that almost everything had been done by Burke, and that the cleanup and coverup was done by Patsy and/or John.

I had never considered the note to possibly also have been written by Burke. One possible problem is that if he had written it, wouldn't his fingerprints be on it? I can't see him being careful enough not to get fingerprints on either the tablet or the paper, especially since he must have been excited by what he'd just done.

 

[expat79]

The idea of PR or JR using the cord to "finish off" JBR has always bothered me. I really believe now that almost everything had been done by Burke, and that the cleanup and coverup was done by Patsy and/or John.

I had never considered the note to possibly also have been written by Burke. One possible problem is that if he had written it, wouldn't his fingerprints be on it? I can't see him being careful enough not to get fingerprints on either the tablet or the paper, especially since he must have been excited by what he'd just done.

Agree with the first part 100%.

But no way BR wrote that note. Besides, it matches Patsy's handwriting anyway.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sorry if I misunderstood or misconstrued, but you said if Patsy was abusive there would have been witnesses at pageants. To me that read like she couldn't have been abusive if other people didn't witness it. Before I misinterpret your words a second time, could you please explain what you meant? Many thanks!

I shouldn't have stated it so emphatically, it's just my personal experience - I can't imagine anything more annoying than the struggle over doing that pageant hair ...I've been around mom's just trying to brush out knots & tangles with long hair- I'm one of the most patient people I know with young children- but that's one battle that works my last nerve! Add on top of that the competition aspect. You've watched toddlers & tiara's? - if Patsy had a "snapping" bone in her body - I think it would be on display.


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[reintarnation]

Sorry,:hand: neither douching nor suppositories cause hymen erosion, and digital penetration is still sexual molestation- assault.You are still violated without your consent. I know of what I speak, I've been a victim of it. They are now redefining rape to include digital molestation, it doesn't have to be penile!!!:banghead::badmood:

I am so truly sorry to hear that. No one deserves that. And sorry I wasn't clear - absolutely digital penetration is sexual assault exactly for the reason you stated. What I meant was that if PR were cleaning JBR by, say, inserting a finger wrapped with toilet paper or a wipe to clean her roughly as punishment, that doesn't mean it was sexually motivated or that she was seeking sexual gratification.

As for the hymenal damage, I don't know your basis for saying that douching or suppository couldn't have caused that.

The hymen is a thin membrane (with an opening, unless there is a deformity) outside the external vaginal opening. Some women's hymens don't ever break - if you are relaxed and gentle enough when using tampons or having sex, even for the first time, the hymen will stretch over time and never break, tear, or bleed.

Conversely, hymenal damage can be caused by virtually anything that comes in to contact with the hymen, which doesn't even require insertion. A douche and suppository do require insertion. If it's a young girl who is scared, uncomfortable, or fidgeting, then the hymen can be impacted.

I know this from personal experience - I happen to have a vagina myself - but more information about what is and isn't normal for hymenal structure is readily available on the Internet.

When the AR describes the half-moon shape of JBR's hymen (I believe it is clockwise from 2:00 to 10:00), that is somewhat abnormal for a young girl, but not necessarily similar to young girls who are Victor sexual abuse. Without additional evidence, it is impossible to tell with certainty.

All I'm saying is that theories about prolonged sexual abuse have their forensic basis in the autopsy report findings, but it has not been proven that sexual assault is the cause to the exclusion of any other possibility. There is doubt. LE and medical experts have doubts.

I can see molestation as a possibility in this case, and there's no proof summarily disproving it either. But the support I've researched for sexual assault theories in this case includes speculation only, whereas there is evidence of JBR's prolonged and abnormal toileting issues and PR being the parent who exclusively dealt with them. When weighing the two possibilities, I accept the molestation as plausible but don't feel that it is the theory with the most evidentiary support based on what I know.

If you have scientific/forensic proof that it had to have been caused only by sexual assault, I totally welcome it. Then we could finally put one more debated point about this case to bed!

 

[reintarnation]

I shouldn't have stated it so emphatically, it's just my personal experience - I can't imagine anything more annoying than the struggle over doing that pageant hair ...I've been around mom's just trying to brush out knots & tangles with long hair- I'm one of the most patient people I know with young children- but that's one battle that works my last nerve! Add on top of that the competition aspect. You've watched toddlers & tiara's? - if Patsy had a "snapping" bone in her body - I think it would be on display.

Thanks! Now I see what you were getting at. That would certainly frustrate me!!!

I have no idea how PR behaved during pageant prep. I do think what you're saying is possible. I also think it's possible that the toileting issues that occurred at home could have been a trigger that set her off.

Cleaning up after bed wetting, cleaning soiled clothes and linens, trying fruitlessly to wash fecal stains from poor wiping habits out of panties...all of those are frustrating and kind of gross tasks that might set any parent off more than other bahvioral issues (I can certainly relate). Especially when that child is a beauty pageant star and these issues appear to the parent as a rebellion against that life, even if the child can't actually control it.

 

[Heymom]

Unfortunately, we'll likely never know. We know quite a bit more than we used to know, but still not enough in many areas.

RIP JonBenet

 

[Heymom]

Agree with the first part 100%.

But no way BR wrote that note. Besides, it matches Patsy's handwriting anyway.

I was just considering a new theory. My nephew writes a lot like my sister, actually. Complete with weird letter forms and all.

 

[Razz]

I am so truly sorry to hear that. No one deserves that. And sorry I wasn't clear - absolutely digital penetration is sexual assault exactly for the reason you stated. What I meant was that if PR were cleaning JBR by, say, inserting a finger wrapped with toilet paper or a wipe to clean her roughly as punishment, that doesn't mean it was sexually motivated or that she was seeking sexual gratification.

As for the hymenal damage, I don't know your basis for saying that douching or suppository couldn't have caused that.

The hymen is a thin membrane (with an opening, unless there is a deformity) outside the external vaginal opening. Some women's hymens don't ever break - if you are relaxed and gentle enough when using tampons or having sex, even for the first time, the hymen will stretch over time and never break, tear, or bleed.

Conversely, hymenal damage can be caused by virtually anything that comes in to contact with the hymen, which doesn't even require insertion. A douche and suppository do require insertion. If it's a young girl who is scared, uncomfortable, or fidgeting, then the hymen can be impacted.

I know this from personal experience - I happen to have a vagina myself - but more information about what is and isn't normal for hymenal structure is readily available on the Internet.

When the AR describes the half-moon shape of JBR's hymen (I believe it is clockwise from 2:00 to 10:00), that is somewhat abnormal for a young girl, but not necessarily similar to young girls who are Victor sexual abuse. Without additional evidence, it is impossible to tell with certainty.

All I'm saying is that theories about prolonged sexual abuse have their forensic basis in the autopsy report findings, but it has not been proven that sexual assault is the cause to the exclusion of any other possibility. There is doubt. LE and medical experts have doubts.

I can see molestation as a possibility in this case, and there's no proof summarily disproving it either. But the support I've researched for sexual assault theories in this case includes speculation only, whereas there is evidence of JBR's prolonged and abnormal toileting issues and PR being the parent who exclusively dealt with them. When weighing the two possibilities, I accept the molestation as plausible but don't feel that it is the theory with the most evidentiary support based on what I know.

If you have scientific/forensic proof that it had to have been caused only by sexual assault, I totally welcome it. Then we could finally put one more debated point about this case to bed!

Google the "Bonita Papers". Very informative, but lengthy, and the layout is much easier to read and understand.

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[Razz]

Thanks! Now I see what you were getting at. That would certainly frustrate me!!!

I have no idea how PR behaved during pageant prep. I do think what you're saying is possible. I also think it's possible that the toileting issues that occurred at home could have been a trigger that set her off.

Cleaning up after bed wetting, cleaning soiled clothes and linens, trying fruitlessly to wash fecal stains from poor wiping habits out of panties...all of those are frustrating and kind of gross tasks that might set any parent off more than other bahvioral issues (I can certainly relate). Especially when that child is a beauty pageant star and these issues appear to the parent as a rebellion against that life, even if the child can't actually control it.

Should have been a huge warning sign to Patsy that all was not right in that house. And the fact there had been 30 dr. appts in a space of two years for "yeast infections".

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[Lilibet]

Yes, they did have samples of Burke's handwriting.

I found a good deal of information in "The Bonita Papers". Go to Google and type that in.

It's rather lengthy but the layout
and the way it reads is much better than most of the books I've read. And it is very informative.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

BBM

Thanks. I went back and reread the Bonita Papers. You're right that they took samples of Burke's handwriting. And we know that the handwriting analysts seem convinced it was written by Patsy. It would have been another twist to this case if he had written the ransom note himself...and I sometimes like to explore twists and turns.

The idea of PR or JR using the cord to "finish off" JBR has always bothered me. I really believe now that almost everything had been done by Burke, and that the cleanup and coverup was done by Patsy and/or John.

I had never considered the note to possibly also have been written by Burke. One possible problem is that if he had written it, wouldn't his fingerprints be on it? I can't see him being careful enough not to get fingerprints on either the tablet or the paper, especially since he must have been excited by what he'd just done.

BBM

I hadn't thought about fingerprints. I agree that a kid would have carelessly left them. Even Burke.

Agree with the first part 100%.

But no way BR wrote that note. Besides, it matches Patsy's handwriting anyway.

Yes, I knew they determined that it was a close match to Patsy's handwriting. What prompted my musing was wondering if Burke's handwriting had ever been looked at or if LE assumed he couldn't have written the note. IF his handwriting was similar to Patsy's I don't think it's completely impossible for Burke to have written the note. Unlikely yes, but not impossible for someone like Burke IMO. Since posting my question, I've learned that his handwriting sample was obtained, so I'm satisfied that LE has already settled my thinking outside the box.

I was just considering a new theory. My nephew writes a lot like my sister, actually. Complete with weird letter forms and all.

BBM

Thanks for considering my ramblings. That family members sometimes have similar handwriting is what prompted my thoughts, along with the fact that Burke was a smart kid. But it seems that LE covered that and Burke's handwriting must have been different enough that it wasn't considered for the ransom note.

 

[MissUnderstood]

Has there ever been any other case where an accident occurred and family tried to cover it up as a murder? The only time I can recall is the defense in Casey Anthony case, which i thought was insane.. no one covers up an accident..but now it seems the same idea is being offered as a theory in JonBenet's murder.
Another reason, I am having trouble with the accident theory is at what point did the cover up start? after the head blow? or after the strangulation? If one or both found her after the head blow..how did they give up on her? how did they jump to the conclusion she was dying? Would the first reaction not be to get help in case their was any chance she could be saved? she still had a heart beat...so why jump to there is no hope?

There have been many 'child abuse gone to far accidents' that claimed to be abductions or car jackings. You only need to browse these forums, there are more than you would think.


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[MissUnderstood]

When people say, "Well that is normal for a 9-year-old child," that is total BS. My mother died when I was 10, and I cried a lot, when I found out, at her funeral, when we left the cemetery, and for weeks afterward. I sure didn't laugh or act like nothing had happened. If my sister had died instead of my mother, I'd have been heartbroken.

I used to think Dr. Phil was a straightforward kind of guy, but over the years I've kind of lost respect for him, and this really tears it. Yeah, he asked the questions, but in a perfunctory way, and as if he was giving Burke a wide path out of trouble. I know he must have made money from this interview, which is just more whoring out of JonBenet.

I have a niece with Aspergers. When we told her our nan had died she just stared at us and then said 'can you pass me a nugget', we were eating McDonald's at the time. She is a lovely heartfelt girl but is so inappropriate in certain situations. She laughs at the wrong time, says the wrong thing at the wrong time.
Watching BR on DP really reminded me of her.


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[NZkiwi]

The programme has not aired here in New Zealand yet but have always thought Burke did it!


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[reintarnation]

Google the "Bonita Papers". Very informative, but lengthy, and the layout is much easier to read and understand.

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Yes, I've read the Bonita Papers. That's been floating around for quite some time. While the information is extremely enlightening, sometimes shocking, and may very well be true, we have to be careful. The validity of most of the claims contained within that writing have never been verified or sourced. The origination of the Bonita Papers is dubious at best, unfortunately.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682509/Sources

1. The Bonita Papers. Acording to Internet poster Spade, "These are the unedited "notes" of Bonita Sauer, secretary/para-legal to Dan Hoffman. Bonita intended to write a book from the case documents provided to her boss. But Bonita's notes were sold to the tabs by her nephew." Spade (post deleted) claims that Bonita works in the same office as Larry Pozner. It should be strongly emphasized that much of the information in these papers has not been corroborated. Internet poster Jameson(post deleted) claims Bonita has disavowed much of what is in these papers. User beware.

 

[cubbeegirl]

When my son was a little tyke, my momma who lived 900 miles away came from Illinois to Louisiana to spend Christmas with us ..in his own house .
I remember when it came on the news , within a few months I remember my mother stating that she believed Burke did it , I , on the other hand thought that Patsy had done it .As the years went by I started to wonder about that , then Chief Kolars book came
out and suddenly it all made more sense to me .
I've been a BDI since that book and Tricia's interviews with him, the Dr Phil and CBS programs just solidified it in my mind.
My momma is gone now, but I hope she knows that I now know she was right ....as usual ...

 

[chlban]

Yes, and agreed. But it is not universally accepted that the penetration was sexually motivated. Nor is it agreed that the penetration had to be digital - it could have also been caused by douching or suppositories used in vaginitis treatments.

My point here is that I keep the possibility of sexual assault and molestation open in my mind, but there is enough doubt out there to keep me from thinking that it is the only explanation for her prior injury(ies). The conclusion from the CBS documentary that there is no forensic evidence of a sexual assault occurring that night, despite what we've believed for years, leads me even further away from the sexual assault aspect of this case, at least in respect to it having something to do with JBR's death.

I have never thought this crime had anything to do with sexual assualt. What I have realized is that, after almost 20 years of following this case, that I have developed some pretty firm beliefs about it. One is that it isn't sexual (although certainly staged to look that way). Another is that John really did wake to Patsy screaming and was not part of the initial staging. Ironically, the one belief I waiver on is PDI or BDI. Still leaning P but more open than ever to B. Most of all though I am grateful to the CBS show, and Dateline, for not taking the easy route and embracing the "Ramsey's have been exonerated" nonsense.

 

[sloane7777]

I think it was BR. I don't think he is capable of feeling or expressing any kind of emotion and is not able to have empathy. He most likely needed help from a young age but his parents, not wanting the stigma, were in denial. Mirrors what we have seen with Adam Lanza and others.

I IOO% think BR is somewhere on the spectrum his demeanor just SCREAMS Aspergers !!!!!!!!

 

[Isabelle]

I watched the show last night on LMN. The clips of PR being interviewed by LE are unusual. To me her demeanor is nothing like I have experienced after having lost a child. She appeared cold and hardened. Her emotions are off, just like BR. I am vacillating between PR and BR being the murderer and now leaning more toward PR. Wondering if there really is a Heaven and Hell.

 

[sloane7777]

I watched the show last night on LMN. The clips of PR being interviewed by LE are unusual. To me her demeanor is nothing like I have experienced after having lost a child. She appeared cold and hardened. Her emotions are off, just like BR. I am vacillating between PR and BR being the murderer and now leaning more toward PR. Wondering if there really is a Heaven and Hell.

I don't get that out of her ...what I see is a fierce need t protect the remaining child and the fear and total irritation that they are questioning her (AS in a I know what is best for him , and WE will deal with him as we see fit)