CA - 14 killed in San Bernardino mass shooting, 2 Dec 2015 #4

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There are many parts of the Quran that are violent and invite jihad. To balance that statement there are many parts of the Bible that are violent. Difference is, thankfully there are few Christians who don't pick/choose what parts of the Bible they wish to embrace. Not too many use the eye for an eye motto anymore. And for moderate Muslims they too embrace the more peaceful passages from their Quran. But, for those radicalized members they find the worst possible passages to follow, and they follow them to a T.

After 9/11 I found myself strongly arguing on the side of moderate Muslims, often my opinion was a minority opinion. I find it more and more difficult to speak so strongly right now. I'm watching, and frankly reeling at where our easy access into Canada/US has got us. Yes, I know about the home growns. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about a culture so very different than ours that is being shoved into the daily lives of Europeans. We are not that far behind if we don't stop and think.

And everybody has heard this before, but I think it bears repeating at this point in time...you know that if you and your family moved to the middle east and started demanding that they turn their world around to accommodate you and your western ways you'd end up in serious legal trouble. If saying that is not pc, I really don't care about that anymore.

As a reformed Evangelical Christian (for a decade, but have since been saved), I can say that the Bible is as bloody and vengeful as any seamy novel.

And respectfully, I have read on this thread and many others, the "eye for an eye" sentiment. Especially in cases of child sexual abuse. Where posters root for prison rape as justice.

Not to say I don't "get" that. When it comes to kids I want to do unspeakable things to people who hurt babies. I don't, because I respect our legal system. But I understand those who want vigilante justice.

So, let us not think that Muslims are alone in vengeful thoughts or actions. I have read such sentiments here from posters of many religions/philosophies.
 
Fox news just said that it appears Farook hit the LE radar a week before the attacks. The feds said neither of them were on the radar, and now the local LE won't comment on the topic.

Sorry no link, it was mentioned in a video but Fox didn't have any details on it yet.
 
There are many parts of the Quran that are violent and invite jihad. To balance that statement there are many parts of the Bible that are violent. Difference is, thankfully there are few Christians who don't pick/choose what parts of the Bible they wish to embrace. Not too many use the eye for an eye motto anymore. And for moderate Muslims they too embrace the more peaceful passages from their Quran. But, for those radicalized members they find the worst possible passages to follow, and they follow them to a T.

After 9/11 I found myself strongly arguing on the side of moderate Muslims, often my opinion was a minority opinion. I find it more and more difficult to speak so strongly right now. I'm watching, and frankly reeling at where our easy access into Canada/US has got us. Yes, I know about the home growns. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about a culture so very different than ours that is being shoved into the daily lives of Europeans. We are not that far behind if we don't stop and think.

And everybody has heard this before, but I think it bears repeating at this point in time...you know that if you and your family moved to the middle east and started demanding that they turn their world around to accommodate you and your western ways you'd end up in serious legal trouble. If saying that is not pc, I really don't care about that anymore.

I'm with you, after 911 I too, was strongly on the side of moderate Muslims...but these days, it is just hard to tell. 60% of young American Muslims want Sharia here?! What the heck, it is like they do not understand We the people AT ALL...instead it is their interpretation of 'divine law'. As has been said, the West has already fought that battle...
 
I saw that happen first hand with the Catholic religion. When I was growing up, many families, like my own, felt it too conservative and repressive to abide by all of the strictures. Many families wanted to limit the amount of children. My grandmother had 10, but my mother wanted to stop at 3. There were thousands of good Catholic women that made the personal decision to go against their 'faith' and voluntarily limit their family size.

The same thing happened with homosexuality and the acceptance of our loved ones and family members. My very favorite cousin, and a much loved nephew and grandson, was GAY. And he was religious and kind and intelligent. We could not turn our backs on him just because the church wanted to label him in a negative way.

And the same with divorce. My Dad cheated on my mother with his secretary. And the priest wanted her to shut up and go back home and ACCEPT IT and be a dutiful, silent wife. She refused.

The Catholic Religion had to reform itself and accept that some people would have to divorce, and some would have to limit their number of offspring, and would have to welcome LGBT's into their fold. If they did not, their numbers would continue to plummet. And for the most part, they have done so, quietly, under the radar, accepted change. The pope has telegraphed some of that change himself recently.

And I believe that the Muslim faith is going to have to do the same.

Katydid,
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I also grew up (and still am) Catholic and have watched the evolution of the church over my lifetime. I also have close family members who have same sex husbands/wives and wish to continue in their Catholic faith. I hadn't thought of the comparison. Thanks for that.
 
I just wanted to give a big shoutout to Boytwnmom for her fantastic posts on the Radical Islamism. :tyou:

In my life there is nothing more satisfying, important or powerful than knowledge. I consider myself fairly well read on this topic and yet I always learn something new from her posts

So, it is with sincerity that I extend my deep appreciation to you Boytwnmom.:loveyou:

Seconded....👍💗
 
I wonder about this myself. I am missing Muslim students since last week. But then, it is also cold and flu season. Hopefully I will know more tonight.

Not that it matters, but both families are rather "western" in dress and manner. But if that would make them less of a target, I would be happy.

Just saw the stats on religious persecution in the USA since 09/11/2001. Muslims 16% & Jews 26%. This speaks volumes, imo.

* Only 2% out of 10,000 US citizens reporting flu symptoms
https://flunearyou.org/?campaign=GAads&gclid=CMjw596Sy8kCFUWWgQod7ikKHA
 
Just saw the stats on religious persecution in the USA since 09/11/2001. Muslims 16% & Jews 26%. This speaks volumes, imo.

Considering that there are 2.77 million Muslims in the US, and 6.5 million Jews in the US, that means that Muslims are persecuted at a higher rate than Jews in the US. (That is, depending on what you mean -- you provided no link or source, so it's difficult to make any sense of your figures.)
 
Just saw the stats on religious persecution in the USA since 09/11/2001. Muslims 16% & Jews 26%. This speaks volumes, imo.

Links? And I am not sure what this means? Can you post the study to which you refer?
 
A $28,500 deposit was made to Syed Farook’s bank account from WebBank.com. WebBank.com is located in Utah.

The SUV the killers rented had a Utah license plate. Coincidence???

Also in the days before the shooting, there were at least three transfers of $5,000 that appear to be to Farook’s mother.

Read more here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/12/07/bank-records-show-28500-deposit-to-syed-farooks-account-two-weeks-before-shooting-source-says.html

Not sure if there is a Utah connection between rental car and bank. I'm not stating, just wondering. When I rent a U-haul truck, even up here in Canada, most of the time the license plate is from Arizona (I think? Arizona). That's where their head office is I was told. Maybe the rental car is something like that?

I opened the link, and was watching beyond the part that talked about the banking, and one of the guys speaking was, again, stating that the refugee program is safe, as they go through a rigid background check (this is not verbatim, I was too lazy to playback to find the exact words). But, don't they know that the public is not swallowing this crap anymore. Tashfeen Malik got into the USA on a fiancee visa that was supposed to have attached to it a rigid background check. She put in an address that did not exist, and even this most basic mistake went un-noticed. They've got to come up with a new lie, something people might actually believe for a little while. Or wait, maybe they could just say they don't know what the hell they are doing.
 
Just got an email from one of my families; R (the child) has strep throat but before that they were visiting family in Atlanta. Nothing to do with being afraid of retaliation! Shew!!!!!

Still waiting to hear from the other family.
 
not that any of us are religious experts, but that was one of the many things I looked at as it is so often quoted by non-Muslims and Muslims. That, on its face, would make it seem pretty OBVIOUS that you can't kill people right? Except, you have to read the whole passage in context.

There are numerous places where you can read more about this by Muslim and non-Muslims. But there are two general criticisms.

First is most say it actually applies to Jews (Children of Israel) not Muslims. To follow that further it is actually based on a quote from the Talmud:

“Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.” Jerusalem Talmud Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)

In context, the decree doesn’t apply universally to all peoples. The verse refers to the Israelites in Biblical history. The verses just preceding 5:32 discuss the story of Cain and Abel. It is almost certain that the good part of the verse 5:32 is actually of Jewish origin, long predating Mohammad and the Koran. This excerpt, discussing the decree’s origin, speaks for itself: - See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylig...-killing-of-non-muslims/#sthash.Bh0FCNDM.dpuf

And there's a whole line of scholarship about how the Talmud isn't the word of God and so it wasn't Allah saying this as the Talmud is the recorded teaching of the Sanhedrin, rabbi's. And then, he didn't just quote it, Muhammed added exceptions to it to say when killing WAS OK.

5:32: “For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.”

So, killing is OK for people spreading corruption and all sorts of acts by non-Muslims are considered to be the spreading of corruption. Some say just the presence of non-believers sows corruption. There is much evidence that Islamic scholars consider the killing of an innocent MUSLIM wrong. But a non-Muslim? Not so much.

(see 5:33). “Corruption in the land” refers to the words and/or actions that come into significant conflict with Islam. The Koran says that the presence of disbelievers causes confusion and corruption in the land, and therefore Muslims must join together to oppose them (8:73). Ibn Kathir interprets 8:73 to mean that if the Muslims do not join together to protect themselves and their religion from the disbelievers, then “(…there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great corruption), meaning, if you do not shun the idolators and offer your loyalty to the believers, Fitnah will overcome the people. Then confusion [polytheism and corruption] will be rampant, for the believers will be mixed with disbelievers, resulting in tremendous, widespread trials [corruption and mischief] between people.”[/QUOTE]

So, while this passage is often quoted to prove the point Muslims can't kill it's not hard to find evidence that this is not the only view and it doesn't really hang together as something Allah said as he Talmud had already said it and it's pretty easy to find evidence that many Muslims disagree that killing is bad.


Point of clarification and it's an important one:

I listened to a radio show out of the Bay Area (KGO) today and they had on the air for 2 hours a noted Muslim scholar...i.e an expert on the faith and the Quran.

He emphatically said (over and over, essentially) all these terrorists are NOT practicing the principles of Muslim as written in the Quran and as observed by real Muslims worldwide. The Quran is very clear on killing: killing one innocent person is the same as killing all people and it is not allowed--it is absolutely forbidden. It is an abomination, a sin.

He and other Muslim leaders have spoken out against every one of these terrorist acts. These terrorists may think and call themselves 'Muslims,' but what they are practicing and what they are doing is not the Muslim religion. Let me repeat for the hard of understanding: this is not about the religion, this is about a bunch of goons/monsters who are using the name of this religion but are not really practicing it. Even Obama pointed this out in his speech, btw.

This expert also mentioned a download to a free copy of the Quran since people were asking to look things up.
 
FOX NEWS - Kelly File:

Breaking: One of the terrorists was being investigated by LAPD one week before the San Bernardino attack..

http://www.weeklystandard.com/a-missed-warning/article/2000125

A Missed Warning?
Scanner traffic indicates law enforcement may have investigated San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook a week before the attack.
5:04 PM, Dec 07, 2015

Law enforcement officials in San Bernardino and Los Angeles may have investigated Syed Farook one week before the shooting on the community development center on December 2, 2015, that left 14 dead and 17 injured, according to a review of police communications immediately following the attacks.
<snipped - read more>
 
Fox news just said that it appears Farook hit the LE radar a week before the attacks. The feds said neither of them were on the radar, and now the local LE won't comment on the topic.

Sorry no link, it was mentioned in a video but Fox didn't have any details on it yet.

Sadly "why am I not all that surprised?"
 
Finally caught up. I almost don't want to hear about who all was on FBI or LE radar BEFORE the attacks. It makes me want to slap my head against a cement wall. Useless. Meanwhile here in the jungle...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Trying to catch up here. If this has been discussed, please help me find the discussion. All the victims' FB pages that I can find seem to have been turned into "memorials" or "community" pages. Is this something normally done by FB after a mass tragedy like this? I've never seen that before, and just curious.
 
Trying to catch up here. If this has been discussed, please help me find the discussion. All the victims' FB pages that I can find seem to have been turned into "memorials" or "community" pages. Is this something normally done by FB after a mass tragedy like this? I've never seen that before, and just curious.

I've seen it done to individual pages before, like after a missing person is found deceased the Facebook page changes from "John Doe" to "Remembering John Doe."
 
Bumping due to editing with link-->

FOX NEWS - Kelly File:

Breaking: One of the terrorists was being investigated by LAPD one week before the San Bernardino attack..

http://www.weeklystandard.com/a-missed-warning/article/2000125

A Missed Warning?
Scanner traffic indicates law enforcement may have investigated San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook a week before the attack.
5:04 PM, Dec 07, 2015

Law enforcement officials in San Bernardino and Los Angeles may have investigated Syed Farook one week before the shooting on the community development center on December 2, 2015, that left 14 dead and 17 injured, according to a review of police communications immediately following the attacks.
<snipped - read more>

________________________

"Megyn Kelly interviewed Steve Hayes of the Weekly Standard that broke the story. When he contacted investigators for a follow up, they gave him the ole, "I'm sorry, we can't release that information due to the integrity of the investigation/investigators"...
Hayes said that he will dig deeper tomorrow.. I have been researching investigations for almost a decade now. There has been very few cases that I have researched where the proverbial ball wasn't dropped. It would be very tragic if this is the norm in this tragic case"....
 
Wow. .. I'm sure I was on page 60 something and now I'm back to posts I've read at 58...

Gremlins.....gremlins.........everywhere!!!! &#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128050;&#128029;&#128030;&#128030;&#128030;&#128030;&#128030;&#128030;
 
I'm with you, after 911 I too, was strongly on the side of moderate Muslims...but these days, it is just hard to tell. 60% of young American Muslims want Sharia here?! What the heck, it is like they do not understand We the people AT ALL...instead it is their interpretation of 'divine law'. As has been said, the West has already fought that battle...

And I'd like to live in a more socialist society because it fits with my values. Ain't gonna happen though. It doesn't bother me even if a majority of Muslims do say they'd like to live under sharia law. Radical beliefs aren't a problem unless people try to force it on others.
 
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