CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[al66pine]

Indication of Crime? Why SID Assumed the Case?

Challenging the notion that there are no solid indications of a crime: Why would the Specialized Investigations Division take over the case if that were true? Anyone here w LE knowledge to set me straight? TIA
IMO, LE knows much that we don't.

@Penny4YourThoughts LE July 22 stmt:
"Detectives from the Specialized Investigations Division have assumed the investigation as is standard department policy when a missing person has not been located."
Ppl have different interps, because stmt ^ is not clear as to whether case continues as investigation of -
1) MisPers ...................................................... (standard dept policy).
2) homicide .................................................... (one of division's duties, per SBSD website).
3) crime of unspecified nature (abduction?) ... (stmt did not specify MisPers or homicide).
So conclusion re type of investigation depends on how we interp.

SBSD's stmt could have clarified type of investigation the division is conducting.
Not obligated to. Didn't. Leaving question open. Well, officially open. To public interp. By design. imo.

----------------------------------------------------------
For context from SBSD's ongoing press release on Nixle (most recent official stmt, AFAIK)
"SUMMARY:
UPDATE - Monday, July 22, 2019
The ongoing daily searches for Barbara Thomas in the Mohave National Preserve have been suspended. Additional searches will be conducted as any additional information is developed in the investigation.
Detectives from the Specialized Investigations Division have assumed the investigation as is standard department policy when a missing person has not been located.
The investigation is ongoing and anyone with information is asked to contact Detective Nicholas Clark, Specialized Investigations Division (909) 387-3589. Callers wishing to remain anonymous are urged to contact the We-Tip Hotline at 1-800-78-CRIME (27463) or www.wetip.com." bbm

 

[al66pine]

SBSD Details within SID. Indication of Crime?

They would have gotten involved as soon as they gave RT a polygraph, since that division does polygraphs.
Specialized Investigations – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

@PaulR sbm A good point. Some info from SBSD SID webpage, Intro, Homicide & Polygraph.

"The Specialized Investigations Division is comprised of the Homicide Detail, Crimes Against Children Detail and the Polygraph Detail. These details investigate a variety of major crimes including homicides, suspicious deaths, in-custody deaths, officer-involved shootings, ....crimes against children...." [ed: nothing re MisPers, specifically]
"The Homicide Detail is responsible for investigating all homicides, unexplained deaths, deaths of a suspicious nature and in-custody deaths that occur in the Department’s primary jurisdiction...." [ed: nothing re MisPers, specifically]
"The Polygraph Detail .... provides support for criminal, administrative and background investigators within the department...."
"The function of the polygrapher is to assist an investigator in establishing the truth-telling profile of a job applicant, crime suspect, or the credibility of a witness. The polygraph can assist an investigator by giving direction on the investigation and assist in corroborating evidence and statements that may otherwise be difficult to measure."
bbm sbm ^ Specialized Investigations – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

 

[10ofRods]

Challenging the notion that there are no solid indications of a crime: Why would the Specialized Investigations Division take over the case if that were true? Anyone here w LE knowledge to set me straight? TIA
IMO, LE knows much that we don't.

One set of reasons would be that some of the tips they got came from Barbara's son, who alleges there was a crime. Since he did this publicly on facebook, and participated in getting the "foul play" press release out, one can be pretty certain that when LE talked to him, he mentioned his suspicions.

Further, RT himself alleges that she was kidnapped. While LE said they had no evidence of kidnapping, it's possible that leads came in nevertheless, since RT had alerted the region about a possible kidnapping.

So, there has to be an investigation. That is done by their Special Investigations Division.

The status of the case is unknown. For all we know, it's on a far back burner. Or it's very active. But as long as it's active, the police are probably going to automatically deny FOIA requests.

<modsnip>

 

[Cherwell]

I wonder why RT feels so strongly BT was taken to Vegas? I know they lived in Henderson at one point, but why would she be taken anywhere? It's far more likely she was disposed of (so sorry to say that) somewhere relatively close by.

I'm not convinced that he feels it "strongly". Las Vegas is the nearest city and they were on a direct route to it, so it's an obvious connection, and may have been mentioned by someone else first.

As for "why would she be taken anywhere?" .....
If it was your loved one, which would you prefer to think?

 

[cazador]

I'm not convinced that he feels it "strongly". Las Vegas is the nearest city and they were on a direct route to it, so it's an obvious connection, and may have been mentioned by someone else first.

As for "why would she be taken anywhere?" .....
If it was your loved one, which would you prefer to think?

The Truth

 

[cazador]

One set of reasons would be that some of the tips they got came from Barbara's son, who alleges there was a crime. Since he did this publicly on facebook, and participated in getting the "foul play" press release out, one can be pretty certain that when LE talked to him, he mentioned his suspicions.

Further, RT himself alleges that she was kidnapped. While LE said they had no evidence of kidnapping, it's possible that leads came in nevertheless, since RT had alerted the region about a possible kidnapping.

So, there has to be an investigation. That is done by their Special Investigations Division.

The status of the case is unknown. For all we know, it's on a far back burner. Or it's very active. But as long as it's active, the police are probably going to automatically deny FOIA requests.

<modsnip>

When you look at their cold case file, they have many. But they have also solved many old cases.
It appears They do stay on task

Specialized Investigations – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department
ps
April Pitzer is in the group of unsolved.. Detective Goodwin Good Guy
jmho

 

[Cherwell]

The Truth

We were talking about hypotheses. Truth isn't an option at that stage.
Surely most people would favour the possibility that offered some hope, even while accepting that it was unlikely.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'm not convinced that he feels it "strongly". Las Vegas is the nearest city and they were on a direct route to it, so it's an obvious connection, and may have been mentioned by someone else first.

As for "why would she be taken anywhere?" .....
If it was your loved one, which would you prefer to think?

Good point. : (

 

[10ofRods]

We were talking about hypotheses. Truth isn't an option at that stage.
Surely most people would favour the possibility that offered some hope, even while accepting that it was unlikely.

Energetically seeking truth is always an option. I don't know any other way of finding it.

 

[10ofRods]

We were talking about hypotheses. Truth isn't an option at that stage.
Surely most people would favour the possibility that offered some hope, even while accepting that it was unlikely.

I would say some people not most, unless of course you have something to back that up. There's no "surely" about it without data.

Lots and lots of people do want to know the truth of what happened, even if it's tragic or unpleasant. I think most people react initially to desert and wilderness disappearances with hope, at least in my experience (and I've interviewed quite a few). But then, many people develop steely determination to figure out what happened. I have no idea what percentage of people go that route, but I'm quite certain that many people go past the "hope" stage and arrive at grief, loss and sometimes, attempts to prevent another occurrence of what happened to their loved one (even if not found). There are entire groups for people in that stage, and I have admired and assisted people in that group for years.

In the case of putting out to the media that one's hope is also a possibility (kidnapped to Vegas), if a bit more information was available to the public, there would have been more interest in Vegas and its news market.

How strong a hope do you think it was, in that first week? The interview in which that was said was on Monday afternoon after she went missing. I'm guessing it was still a possibility for RT at that point. However, I don't think any reasonable person would have the same hope or hypothesis 2 months out. Or 3 months out. What do you think?

I guess RT could be picturing Barbara with Stockholm syndrome (and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know him). It would then be reasonable for him to make another appeal to the kidnappers. Maybe that will happen in future. (I strongly doubt it, I'm guessing he now thinks something else happened - but I sure would like to know what his ideas are now, as it would aid in helping find Barbara).

 

[Cherwell]

Energetically seeking truth is always an option. I don't know any other way of finding it.

I didn't say that seeking the truth wasn't an option.

 

[Cherwell]

I would say some people not most, unless of course you have something to back that up. There's no "surely" about it without data.

In the very early stages? You don't think most people would harbour a little shred of hope that their loved one wasn't dead? I think it would be unnatural not to clutch at that straw, even if you kept it to yourself.

Lots and lots of people do want to know the truth of what happened, even if it's tragic or unpleasant. I think most people react initially to desert and wilderness disappearances with hope, at least in my experience (and I've interviewed quite a few). But then, many people develop steely determination to figure out what happened. I have no idea what percentage of people go that route, but I'm quite certain that many people go past the "hope" stage and arrive at grief, loss and sometimes, attempts to prevent another occurrence of what happened to their loved one (even if not found). There are entire groups for people in that stage, and I have admired and assisted people in that group for years.

In the case of putting out to the media that one's hope is also a possibility (kidnapped to Vegas), if a bit more information was available to the public, there would have been more interest in Vegas and its news market.

How strong a hope do you think it was, in that first week? The interview in which that was said was on Monday afternoon after she went missing. I'm guessing it was still a possibility for RT at that point. However, I don't think any reasonable person would have the same hope or hypothesis 2 months out. Or 3 months out. What do you think?

I guess RT could be picturing Barbara with Stockholm syndrome (and I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know him). It would then be reasonable for him to make another appeal to the kidnappers. Maybe that will happen in future. (I strongly doubt it, I'm guessing he now thinks something else happened - but I sure would like to know what his ideas are now, as it would aid in helping find Barbara).

I don't believe for a moment that he still thinks she was kidnapped.

I have no idea what he thinks now. All we have is those short interviews made soon after Barbara disappeared. That's all I was talking about - his state of mind at that time. There is no reason to think he is still in the same stage of clinging to hope.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

I would personally be so frantic if I thought someone had my loved one, worrying what was happening to them. It would not be a source of hope for me - better they were in the wilderness waiting to be rescued or stumbling towards a road, or maybe in the hands of the angels, but not in the hands of a cruel, violent weirdo. Granted, I've never been in RT's position, and I hope I never am.

 

[PaulR]

I would personally be so frantic if I thought someone had my loved one, worrying what was happening to them. It would not be a source of hope for me - better they were in the wilderness waiting to be rescued or stumbling towards a road, or maybe in the hands of the angels, but not in the hands of a cruel, violent weirdo. Granted, I've never been in RT's position, and I hope I never am.

She was in the desert. Not a forest. No food sources, no water, extreme temperatures both hot and cold. Especially for the elderly, her chances of surviving a few days in would be slim.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

She was in the desert. Not a forest. No food sources, no water, extreme temperatures both hot and cold. Especially for the elderly, her chances of surviving a few days in would be slim.

I know where she was. I didn't mention a forest. Still better than being in the hands of a predator, at least that's how I feel at this moment, not being in the situation. I read too many cruel stories here, I guess.

 

[PaulR]

I know where she was. I didn't mention a forest. Still better than being in the hands of a predator, at least that's how I feel at this moment, not being in the situation. I read too many cruel stories here, I guess.

True, but I've read what Chris McCandless wrote as he was starving to death. That wasn't very good either. At least a kidnapping would give her a chance of being alive.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

True, but I've read what Chris McCandless wrote as he was starving to death. That wasn't very good either. At least a kidnapping would give her a chance of being alive.

I know. It was horrible. But in that heat (or cold), she likely wouldn't lived long enough to have starved. And like many people with an outdoor ethic, I tend to expect that one who routinely enters rugged conditions may also die in those conditions, and that's all part of the risk that goes with the lifestyle.

 

[al66pine]

SBSD Search and Rescue Missions - 265 in 2018. Just some context re SAR for BT.

"San Bernardino is the largest county within the United States....20,105 square miles encompassing vast deserts,.... throughout the year .... Our volunteers save many lives each year during their search and rescue missions in every type of environment.
The primary mission of search and rescue volunteers is to search for and rescue persons on behalf of the Sheriff of San Bernardino County. Additional missions may include evidence searches and assignments at the direction of the Department." bbm sbm
^ from Search and Rescue – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

"2018 Emergency Operation Division Statistics"
"Aviation Unit
Helicopter S & R Calls - 114
Hoists - 68"
"Volunteer Forces Unit....
Search and Rescue - 384 volunteers.
Total Search and Rescue Missions - 265 calls.
^ from Emergency Operations – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

 

[BeachSky]

DBM
Need to research

 

[Seattle1]

I thought the VI said Barbara never met her grandchildren. We had a big conversation about how they communicated. Some wondered why they called her Grandma Barbie if they had never met her.
I remember because I posted that my daughter had never met my mother either but whenever we talk about her we refer to her by the name her mother called her with "grandma" in front if it.
Another poster agreed that one does not have meet in person to refer to them as grandma Barbie, or whatever it may be.
The VI said that he was only aware of them reuniting recently and Matt had contacted her on at least one occasion not long before she went missing. Imo

So BT and son were estranged, and therefore she did not meet his children -- her grandchildren?

It's still not clear as I think son has been divorced for awhile, and birth mom has re-tweeted all missing person detail for BT, acknowledging BT was her children's grandmother.

I don't think I'll be satisfied until hearing from BT herself!!