CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

[MsFacetious]

Its not completely out of the question that she may have been abducted. Someone posted earlier that if she took one of the spur trails on her way back she would end up about a mile away from her camper at a turn-around that looked a lot like the one she was expecting. If she thought the camper had been stolen or realized she was lost she might have flagged someone down while her husband was looking for her.

MOO that is not what happened but its also not completely ridiculous

I can also see this as possible too. It's not like she had a phone to call for help. We've seen rape victims escape only to get "rescued" by another rapist. So while odds are against a bad guy coming across her, it's not impossible.

I think it is reasonable to assume for sure that they didn't find evidence that she wasn't ever there. They would not have searched for 9 days if they had. Obviously not the same as having evidence that she was there- which I agree we do not know.

It's true.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence....

I hope dbdb11's request to SARDrones gets acted upon. If I could have my wish, I'd want them to carefully go over the already-searched area and then, if nothing found, gradually and carefully widen the search area by a further 3 or 4 feet and circle the entire search area, continuing outward in ever-widening circles until the max BT could have traveled is reached, and then extend by another half mile out or so. I'd volunteer to view SARDrone footage of searches like that if it could be done from my home computer. Bet others would too.

Yes, people do this online. This is one such group.

Wings of Mercy

I was wondering the same thing! The neighbors’ surveillance video caught them leaving at 8:15, right? I wondered if she was clearly seen in the video or just the truck/rv leaving?

ETA Just saw your response above PommyMommy!

Yes, Barbara was seen on the video is what we've been told.

 

[LaborDayRN]

So that makes sense and gives me some context to your point of view. I understand how you could see this as an innocent accident.

To give you context of how some of us tend to view this, imagine that you have followed hundreds of cases here, over a period of several years.

And doing that time, you have seen many interviews with concerned spouses, parents and roommates, who are worried about their missing loved ones. And then imagine that much of the time, those who seemed so concerned, ended up being guilty of murder.

After that happens dozens of times, one tends to get rather jaded. But also rather experienced, in seeing holes in a story and issues with a given scenario.

Some of us see red flags here. We could be wrong. But just as you have had many experiences with getting lost in the woods, so this seems familiar to you---many of us have had experiences seeing concerned loved ones describing their last moments with someone,m who then goes missing forever---and this seems familiar to us, and it doesn't always end well.

Just trying to explain the context, for some of the skepticism and doubt. It is not bullying, it is questioning, because of prior experiences.

@katydid23 Thank you for explaining so thoughtfully what many of us are feeling.

 

[GordianKnot]

Interesting that through July 16th, they said no sightings of Barbara were found. Beginning the 19th, no evidence of Barbara was found. For me that speaks volumes. There was no evidence that she was there. This of course, is just my opinion.

BBM:

Whoa.

Great catch, AG!

I think this shift in language used by LE is potentially a huge tell.

Food for thought:

Looks like RT gave his interview to Inside Edition on July 17th:
Husband of Woman Who Vanished During Mojave Desert Hike: 'I Just Want Her Back'

So, through July 16th, LE's language is that there had been "no sightings" of BT.

RT then gives his interview to Inside Edition on July 17th, and explains to everyone that the only scenario that makes sense if that she's been abducted because, "she WAS wearing a bikini, and she had a beer in her hand," ergo, someone must have taken her.

And that oh, yeah, LE told him his polygraph showed he was being deceptive, but not to worry, on account of he "knows they aren't 100%" and he "hadn't slept the night before." So there's that.

On the 17th and 18th, LE doesn't include their usual sentence r/t there being "no sightings" of BT in their daily update.

Then, on July 19th, the language from LE changes from "no sightings" of BT to, "no evidence of Barbara" being found in that desert.

The timing of their introduction of the word "evidence" into the status of their search is interesting.

JMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Regarding RT saying to media that he thought BT was abducted and he thought he was LE's prime suspect in her disappearance / LE told him he was being deceptive based on the polygraph (BBM), bumping this forward from Media Thread:

• San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department dismissed the idea that she had been taken. 'We don't think she was abducted. It's a very remote area. There's no evidence to suggest she was abducted,' spokeswoman Jodi Miller told DailyMail.com.
• She would not be drawn on Robert's claims that he was made to take a polygraph test and told that he was 'deceptive', saying only that it was common practice in missing persons cases for relatives to be questioned. 'In any missing person, you will ask and interview the family of that missing person as well as the last person last seen with that person,' she said. In Barbara's case, her husband is both.
• Miller would not confirm or deny his polygraph comments, but said: 'If Mr Thomas chooses to [share that publicly], that's his decision.' 'That's very, very common. You're trying to find out as much information as you can,' she added.

California police say missing hiker who vanished 'in her bikini' was NOT abducted | Daily Mail Online

 

[LaborDayRN]

I thought I’d weigh in on my interest here seeing as I’ve even been questioned as to whether I’m a family member because I’m not jumping in with accusations of foul play and seeing guilt in every little thing.

I hike quite a bit and forage for mushrooms. Even before my little mushroom obsession I had a pretty poor ability to remember the path we were on because I typically followed my photo taking husband (and yes, he would take so long sometimes and standing around in the heat would bore me, so I’d move ahead to keep the momentum knowing he’d catch up).

This led to quite a number of times veering off on the wrong trail. Luckily not too far as I would turn back if he couldn’t hear me yelling, and I wasn’t in the desert, thankfully.

But we both got lost in the desert once (we walked quite the distance!). Near a highway, too. And I went out on my own once, foraging, and ended up doing what the excerpt above said I broke into a run when I realized I’d lost the trail because I was extremely thirsty and hot and desperate to get back on track and find the car. I went in circles.

I’m not entirely stupid, and even hike a lot. It’s just that I’ve typically relied on my partner to lead, and he grew up doing it and has much better orientation skills (although we also got lost in the snow a couple of times, which was also not enjoyable and resulted in being out far longer than we hoped and feeling extremely miserable - after the panic died down, of course).

I don’t know what’s occurred here, but I do think it’s good to be open to different possibilities.

@Liwthe Thank you for explaining your perspective on this case. I think that's what makes WS such a great place. We all look at things from different perspectives. It makes for more in depth discussions.

 

[10ofRods]

I think she is out there on the OTHER SIDE of where they were searching. IMO she got to the RV and instead of waiting around crossed the street and started her rock obsession again. She got carried away and the poor thing got lost. I know what an obsession collecting is. I'm a collector and it's tempting to keep on collecting. It was admitted they did not search that side as thoroughly as the side coming from RT to the RV. That bothers me.

They searched there too. They had a limited radius on the first day, but on the third day they searched east again, and on days 7-10, they had a large group searching for her body in that area. It does go on for miles and miles and Hidden Hill Road is an easy "trail" (it's much wider than the trail they were on - she would have had to be really confused to keep walking miles and miles on it without turning back).

It's one thing to get "carried away" for an hour or 3 miles or something, in 105F heat or higher. But it's another thing to get "carried away" in that heat, with no water, for 5 miles or more. Plus, wandering away from trails/roads in bare legs...ouch, she'd have been more than "obsessed" with rocks (and she knew that there were great rock finding opportunities elsewhere - but not much right near the pull out or Hidden Hill Road).

 

[Gigi3]

I thought I’d weigh in on my interest here seeing as I’ve even been questioned as to whether I’m a family member because I’m not jumping in with accusations of foul play and seeing guilt in every little thing.

I hike quite a bit and forage for mushrooms. Even before my little mushroom obsession I had a pretty poor ability to remember the path we were on because I typically followed my photo taking husband (and yes, he would take so long sometimes and standing around in the heat would bore me, so I’d move ahead to keep the momentum knowing he’d catch up).

This led to quite a number of times veering off on the wrong trail. Luckily not too far as I would turn back if he couldn’t hear me yelling, and I wasn’t in the desert, thankfully.

But we both got lost in the desert once (we walked quite the distance!). Near a highway, too. And I went out on my own once, foraging, and ended up doing what the excerpt above said I broke into a run when I realized I’d lost the trail because I was extremely thirsty and hot and desperate to get back on track and find the car. I went in circles.

I’m not entirely stupid, and even hike a lot. It’s just that I’ve typically relied on my partner to lead, and he grew up doing it and has much better orientation skills (although we also got lost in the snow a couple of times, which was also not enjoyable and resulted in being out far longer than we hoped and feeling extremely miserable - after the panic died down, of course).

I don’t know what’s occurred here, but I do think it’s good to be open to different possibilities.

I agree with these thoughts as my hubby and I are avid campers and enjoy hiking, although we are nowhere near a desert. We have gotten turned around a time or two while hiking (one being pretty scary) and it’s the scenarios like you have listed above that have me questioning this situation. Given the short time frame, I would think Barbara would have been yelling or trying to backtrack if she’d become lost and try to reunite with RT. I definitely don’t want to judge this poor man. The situation is so confusing. Thanks for your insight!

 

[LaborDayRN]

Interesting that through July 16th, they said no sightings of Barbara were found. Beginning the 19th, no evidence of Barbara was found. For me that speaks volumes. There was no evidence that she was there. This of course, is just my opinion.

I agree with your interpretation of the comment. It makes perfect sense. Interesting word play.

 

[Liwthe]

Interesting that through July 16th, they said no sightings of Barbara were found. Beginning the 19th, no evidence of Barbara was found. For me that speaks volumes. There was no evidence that she was there. This of course, is just my opinion.

I know nothing about the lingo, but given how many in days at that point, they might be looking for a person that isn’t alive so it shifts from sighting to evidence. I don’t know. Maybe someone does.

It doesn’t say there is no evidence she was there. It says they found no evidence. I know it’s easy to make the leap.

They do say that Barbara was last seen at the location. This could be because they’re just going on his word. I would think that he’s got some proof given the investment of resources. This many days in, if they had suspicions he disposed of her elsewhere, it’s surprising no other areas have been searched.

If he’s done something, he’s been very successful so far at hiding it from the police. I believe it’s not an easy thing in this day and age. Possible with planning and extreme cunning? Yes. But very irresponsible of the police to allow people continue to risk their lives out searching if they have some kind of evidence that makes him a suspect that they’re keeping from the public.

 

[Micheline]

Because, as outlandish as it is, he had a theory for every possible question he might be asked. Volunteering those theories is what a guilty person does.

As a court reporter I heard some doozies. And they were always guilty. Innocent people do not behave the way he has.

Think about this, for instance, he can't explain what happened after she walked away but he's sure she was kidnapped and taken to Vegas. I think it's just the opposite - he knows what happened when she walked away from him.

If he were some slick guilty person with his theories all thought out, why would he at the end of his interview direct himself to his wife with the words: Come home, we miss you!

As if a kidnapped Barbara would have that choice, or as if she went missing on purpose.
To me he is a distraught man, holding on to hope by believing in a kidnapping scenario. IMO

 

[Liwthe]

So that makes sense and gives me some context to your point of view. I understand how you could see this as an innocent accident.

To give you context of how some of us tend to view this, imagine that you have followed hundreds of cases here, over a period of several years.

And during that time, you have seen many interviews with concerned spouses, parents and roommates, who are worried about their missing loved ones. And then imagine that much of the time, those who seemed so concerned, ended up being guilty of murder.

After that happens dozens of times, one tends to get rather jaded. But also rather experienced, in seeing holes in a story and issues with a given scenario.

Some of us see red flags here. We could be wrong. But just as you have had many experiences with getting lost in the woods, so this seems familiar to you---many of us have had experiences seeing concerned loved ones describing their last moments with someone, who then goes missing forever---and this seems familiar to us, and it doesn't always end well.

Just trying to explain the context, for some of the skepticism and doubt. It is not bullying, it is questioning, because of prior experiences.

For the record, I follow crime as well (avid member elsewhere on the web, and big time podcast and doco enthusiast). I’m just trying to keep a sense of balance until more is known. If he’s guilty, we’ll find out in time. But until then, we have what we have, and I’ve mentioned before that I think if I was in his situation, I’d fail miserably here on the ‘red flag and holes’ front on account of it seems that anything you do can be used against you, and anything you don’t can, too. And because I don’t have a perfect family. Nor marriage.

 

[10ofRods]

This is for the locals and the map experts.
Just a general reply.
Is this true? I've been told sadly that it is.
There are covered water ways in the area it's a well known dumping site. Lift the metal covers drop a body it's never seen again.
Can anyone answer?
Does the Mojave River run mainly underground? Please ignore map if not relevant, I am no where near there.
Chi

Yes, it does run mostly underground. The section labeled Afton Canyon is where it's above ground (wikipedia and the Mojave Trails National Monument literature say it's the only place it's above ground). That's quite a ways (more than 20 miles IIRC) from Hidden Hill/Kelbaker intersection.

 

[Gigi3]

So that makes sense and gives me some context to your point of view. I understand how you could see this as an innocent accident.

To give you context of how some of us tend to view this, imagine that you have followed hundreds of cases here, over a period of several years.

And during that time, you have seen many interviews with concerned spouses, parents and roommates, who are worried about their missing loved ones. And then imagine that much of the time, those who seemed so concerned, ended up being guilty of murder.

After that happens dozens of times, one tends to get rather jaded. But also rather experienced, in seeing holes in a story and issues with a given scenario.

Some of us see red flags here. We could be wrong. But just as you have had many experiences with getting lost in the woods, so this seems familiar to you---many of us have had experiences seeing concerned loved ones describing their last moments with someone, who then goes missing forever---and this seems familiar to us, and it doesn't always end well.

Just trying to explain the context, for some of the skepticism and doubt. It is not bullying, it is questioning, because of prior experiences.

Great post! It’s so hard to not be cynical and jaded after the outcomes of some cases. I was thinking just the other day about the Laura Wallen case when the perp was at the press conference holding hands with Laura’s mother begging for her safe return. Knowing he had murdered her and their unborn child all along. Or the Katrina Smith case where her husband talked to the press on four different occasions begging for information all the while thinking he had outsmarted LE. In the end he was guilty of murdering her. I could go on and on.

My point is sometimes you really have to look at the red flags and the totality of the case. MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Dogs are obviously not 100% accurate all the time. I will say that in the Paul Miller case in Joshua Tree where he went missing in the middle of July last year and temps were probably equally high (or almost as high), dogs did track him down the trail. I remember reading one of the handlers saying her dog had to take a few months off after since he burned his paws so badly while tracking Paul in the hot weather. So I do think it is possible for them to track in the desert in the heat.

In terms of phones, most hikers who set out on backpacking trips or thru hikes or just knowing they will be without cell service for awhile will have a device like the InReach or something that works off satellite. But for a two mile hike/walk? I would probably not take that with me.

So just to clarify the phone situation--RT did have his phone with him. Barbara did not have a phone on her, but does she have a cell phone? Did RT have it in his pack or was it at at home or at the RV? Do we know that?

VI has said she had no phone. That when she visited Hong Kong in May, his mother (Barbara's SiL) loaned Barbara a phone and taught her to use it. He said she ultimately "jived with" the phone but did not have one.

Dogs can track out there, but we never heard from the SAR team that they were onto anything. They were posting videos of the dogs, but none of them seemed to catch a scent. If the dogs had caught a scent, I think that would be mentioned in the daily bulletins from SBCS instead of saying "no signs of Barbara."

 

[LietKynes]

Interesting that through July 16th, they said no sightings of Barbara were found. Beginning the 19th, no evidence of Barbara was found. For me that speaks volumes. There was no evidence that she was there. This of course, is just my opinion.

BBM

Agreed that the word "evidence" used by LE says volumes.
They (LE) are looking for something or proof that she was out there, at that location.

And it doesn't sound like a rescue.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I know nothing about the lingo, but given how many in days at that point, they might be looking for a person that isn’t alive so it shifts from sighting to evidence. I don’t know. Maybe someone does.

It doesn’t say there is no evidence she was there. It says they found no evidence. I know it’s easy to make the leap.

They do say that Barbara was last seen at the location. This could be because they’re just going on his word. I would think that he’s got some proof given the investment of resources. This many days in, if they had suspicions he disposed of her elsewhere, it’s surprising no other areas have been searched.

If he’s done something, he’s been very successful so far at hiding it from the police. I believe it’s not an easy thing in this day and age. Possible with planning and extreme cunning? Yes. But very irresponsible of the police to allow people continue to risk their lives out searching if they have some kind of evidence that makes him a suspect that they’re keeping from the public.

The public doesn't know if other areas have been searched by LE (such as their RV, their home, any places they made possible stops at on their way to the place she disappeared).

LE continues to actively investigate BT's disappearance, and said when they ended the 'active daily search' where RT said she disappeared, that they would return to search again in that area if their investigation led them to information the area should be searched more.

They have not given any updates or statements on the status of their investigation since the search ended about what they've been doing or whether they're searching for her elsewhere -- they're just not searching there anymore at this point. They very well could have been / are searching in other places, IMO, and are not saying.

 

[Kapua]

Ref post#32 in the Media thread by PommyMommy:
AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*
Nobody aside from RT actually saw BT hiking in the desert on July 12. However, according to our VI, she was seen by a neighbor (or a neighbor's camera) leaving her residence with RT in the vehicle pictured in the referenced post. I would like to see the picture of the vehicle posted everywhere her photos are, because someone may remember seeing it. I know I have mentioned this before, but IMHO, this is very important. I made a composite.

 

[AnnaGrace]

I know nothing about the lingo, but given how many in days at that point, they might be looking for a person that isn’t alive so it shifts from sighting to evidence. I don’t know. Maybe someone does.

It doesn’t say there is no evidence she was there. It says they found no evidence. I know it’s easy to make the leap.

They do say that Barbara was last seen at the location. This could be because they’re just going on his word. I would think that he’s got some proof given the investment of resources. This many days in, if they had suspicions he disposed of her elsewhere, it’s surprising no other areas have been searched.

If he’s done something, he’s been very successful so far at hiding it from the police. I believe it’s not an easy thing in this day and age. Possible with planning and extreme cunning? Yes. But very irresponsible of the police to allow people continue to risk their lives out searching if they have some kind of evidence that makes him a suspect that they’re keeping from the public.

Thank you for your reply. As far as a leap, I've made none. As I stated, this is my opinion. It's how I received it.
I've made no reference to an opinion on RT. So, that doesn't apply here.
It isn't uncommon at all for searches to go on for days or weeks. Searchers risk their lives frequently on searches in all kinds of terrain. They continue until they're sure they've exhausted every effort to find the missing person. I feel that they do not feel she is there.
Again, jmo.
I know that as with all of us here, your main interest is Barbara being found, alive or expired.

 

[MassGuy]

The public doesn't know if other areas have been searched by LE (such as their RV, their home, any places they made possible stops at on their way to the place she disappeared).

LE continues to actively investigate BT's disappearance, and said when they ended the 'active daily search' where RT said she disappeared, that they would return to search again in that area if their investigation led them to information the area should be searched more.

They have not given any updates or statements on the status of their investigation since the search ended about what they've been doing or whether they're searching for her elsewhere -- they're just not searching there anymore at this point. They very well could have been / are searching in other places, IMO, and are not saying.

Exactly. Recently, in the Mackenzie Lueck case, law enforcement conducted a large scale search that recovered her body.

We had absolutely no idea this occurred, until a couple days later when law enforcement announced it.

Likewise, the same could be happening here.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Wondering if LE has RT under surveillance simply as SOP... because nothing (extended searches, etc.) appears to be happening. I can't imagine the case file contains so much information that it's taking LE so much time to review whatever evidence has been gathered to this point.

Has there been an official call (beyond the standard "if you have any information" postings) specifically to travelers who were in the relevant area previous to, during and after the estimated date/time of BT's disappearance? If not, why not? Has LE already prejudged what might have and might not have occurred? Will this eventually be realized as a situation in which LE has been shortsighted in their initial efforts to solve this case?

It is possible (and likely) that LE is waiting for a body-found report, as I expect they do not believe BT will show up under her own power.

Again: knowledge "unacceptable" to whom? Has this question been answered? I apologize if it has.