CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

Whether you agree with another member or not, tag-teaming or ganging up on another member is considered bullying and is not allowed. If you can't remain respectful and courteous, then perhaps you need a break from posting.

Please get back to discussing the case itself instead of personalizing and making it about other members or yourself.

Thank you.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Was anything missing from inside the RV?

Was anything around the exterior of the RV missing or disturbed in any way?

Was the vehicle key found where it was originally placed (supposedly hidden under a rock)?

How long was it that the T's ate before BT went missing? What did BT eat?

Did BT write and leave a 'love' or any type of note for RT that morning/day before?

How long was BT carrying the beer can before she went missing?

Did RT also have a beer? If so, how did he manage handling it along with his camera/gear?

How many beers/water bottles were in the RV at the beginning of that leg of the hike?

Could BT have returned to the RV to discard her (maybe empty) beer can in a trash receptacle and then wait outside the vehicle for RT to return? Was all trash accounted for (the T's own trash)?

Was the 'gone missing' location the only location the T's stopped/parked/hiked that day?

Was RT in any of the photos taken that day? Was RT wearing the same clothes in all photos of him that day?

Was BT wearing the same clothes in all photos of her that day?


Thinking and thinking on this case. I wanted to believe the abduction claim, but now I find that theory only as a remote possibility. Occam's, everywhere. The above are throw-away questions at this point. I have a feeling BT is still in the desert; an unfortunate accident must have occurred in which BT was covered or hidden in some fashion.

I believe LE should return to searching the broader location. In previous days, desert heat, fatigue and varied focus may have affected search integrity and completeness. Maybe a large boulder shifted while BT was exploring on/around it? Vegetation? Would BT have felt a need to obscure herself within a large bush/vegetation patch/boulder pile if she need to relieve herself? Might she have followed a running lizard or other desert creature to some obscured location?

Are there old dwelling slabs/basements/wells shown in old maps of the broader location? Would LE have referred to old maps to ensure a complete search?

She's got to be out there.

 

[10ofRods]

I think it’s obvious those places get searched. Especially the RV. What I’m saying is that they searched the area where RT said she was missing for the full amount of time anyone could have possibly survived. After that, these searches are called off because it’s for body retrieval, and expense/safety issues become more prevalent. This was explained earlier by someone who does these searches.

At the level of investment of resources we really can’t infer they didn’t believe there was some possibility she was there and didn’t have enough suspicion or evidence not to search there.

Whether that’s changed and new info had come to light we don’t know. But hopefully they inform the public before more resources are wasted, or lives risked in the heat.

IMO, to search the truck or RV, they needed a search warrant. They in fact asked him to leave the search area (we only have RT's word for that, but it seems plausible). He then drove his truck back to Arizona, and we can see the trailer in his driveway in one of his videos. Now, they needed a search warrant in Arizona not California.

Does anyone remember who posted about a search of the house? Or when that happened? It seems to me it was after the 23rd, but I'm not sure how we heard that.

Most LE would not accept his invitation to search the RV and do so without a warrant, due to the possibility of needing to use what they found in criminal court. If they searched the house they would have had a warrant for the truck and trailer, but far too late for some kinds of evidence to be seen or logged.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Is there near where the T's were hiking?

Google Maps

 

[rosesfromangels]

Most LE would not accept his invitation to search the RV and do so without a warrant, due to the possibility of needing to use what they found in criminal court. If they searched the house they would have had a warrant for the truck and trailer, but far too late for some kinds of evidence to be seen or logged.

Respectfully snipped.
Well, I'm not so sure.
Even if cleaning agents were used, luminal will detect the underlying blood, if there was any. It's very difficult to completely remove that type of evidence IMO.

Amateur speculation and opinion

 

[Reasonable & Just]

IMO, to search the truck or RV, they needed a search warrant. They in fact asked him to leave the search area (we only have RT's word for that, but it seems plausible). He then drove his truck back to Arizona, and we can see the trailer in his driveway in one of his videos. Now, they needed a search warrant in Arizona not California.

Does anyone remember who posted about a search of the house? Or when that happened? It seems to me it was after the 23rd, but I'm not sure how we heard that.

Most LE would not accept his invitation to search the RV and do so without a warrant, due to the possibility of needing to use what they found in criminal court. If they searched the house they would have had a warrant for the truck and trailer, but far too late for some kinds of evidence to be seen or logged.

I recall that a question was asked about the house, and another poster responded speculatively. I don't think we have any factual info on house search.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

For years, in desert searches, 3-4 days was the maximum search and searches for bodies beyond that was not common. That was my entire childhood and most of my adulthood. My mom's family had lived in 29 Palms, I lived up a hot canyon bounded on 3 sides by (dry) national forest for much of my life. A friend and neighbor got lost in terrain less dry and hot than where Barbara went missing, the search was 4 days. He has never been seen since. He was 20 years old and would be 61 today.

Then, some people started surviving in the desert a bit longer (it should be easy to google some information on this). SAR doesn't do the same things as LE, and my criticisms in this case are of LE (although I don't know for sure exactly what happened). But I don't think anyone has survived in those temps and that humidity for more than 4 days.

The fact that they searched so much longer is interesting and to me says that LE must have thought she was out there. Keep in mind how many people had to be called up to do this and many were volunteers and had to take time from their regular jobs).

No search lasts forever. It seemed to me that they widened the radius of the search every day. But no search can look absolutely everywhere. I don't know what the safe radius is for other humans (who are searchers). Water alone does not prevent hyperthermia. The weather got hotter after about a week (significantly hotter, imo) and it's pretty hot right now.

Volunteer searchers go back to spots like that again and again (for training but also because it bugs them the way it bugs us...that Barbara isn't found).

 

[rkendmar]

Was anything missing from inside the RV?

Was anything around the exterior of the RV missing or disturbed in any way?

Was the vehicle key found where it was originally placed (supposedly hidden under a rock)?

How long was it that the T's ate before BT went missing? What did BT eat?

Did BT write and leave a 'love' or any type of note for RT that morning/day before?

How long was BT carrying the beer can before she went missing?

Did RT also have a beer? If so, how did he manage handling it along with his camera/gear?

How many beers/water bottles were in the RV at the beginning of that leg of the hike?

Could BT have returned to the RV to discard her (maybe empty) beer can in a trash receptacle and then wait outside the vehicle for RT to return? Was all trash accounted for (the T's own trash)?

Was the 'gone missing' location the only location the T's stopped/parked/hiked that day?

Was RT in any of the photos taken that day? Was RT wearing the same clothes in all photos of him that day?

Was BT wearing the same clothes in all photos of her that day?


Thinking and thinking on this case. I wanted to believe the abduction claim, but now I find that theory only as a remote possibility. Occam's, everywhere. The above are throw-away questions at this point. I have a feeling BT is still in the desert; an unfortunate accident must have occurred in which BT was covered or hidden in some fashion.

I believe LE should return to searching the broader location. In previous days, desert heat, fatigue and varied focus may have affected search integrity and completeness. Maybe a large boulder shifted while BT was exploring on/around it? Vegetation? Would BT have felt a need to obscure herself within a large bush/vegetation patch/boulder pile if she need to relieve herself? Might she have followed a running lizard or other desert creature to some obscured location?

Are there old dwelling slabs/basements/wells shown in old maps of the broader location? Would LE have referred to old maps to ensure a complete search?

She's got to be out there.

"She's got to be out there."

Where are the vultures and other scavengers?

 

[Reasonable & Just]

For years, in desert searches, 3-4 days was the maximum search and searches for bodies beyond that was not common. That was my entire childhood and most of my adulthood. My mom's family had lived in 29 Palms, I lived up a hot canyon bounded on 3 sides by (dry) national forest for much of my life. A friend and neighbor got lost in terrain less dry and hot than where Barbara went missing, the search was 4 days. He has never been seen since. He was 20 years old and would be 61 today.

I'm sorry about this. No trace at all? That must have been agonizing to everyone.

 

[Cherwell]

IMO, to search the truck or RV, they needed a search warrant. They in fact asked him to leave the search area (we only have RT's word for that, but it seems plausible). He then drove his truck back to Arizona, and we can see the trailer in his driveway in one of his videos. Now, they needed a search warrant in Arizona not California.

Does anyone remember who posted about a search of the house? Or when that happened? It seems to me it was after the 23rd, but I'm not sure how we heard that.

Most LE would not accept his invitation to search the RV and do so without a warrant, due to the possibility of needing to use what they found in criminal court. If they searched the house they would have had a warrant for the truck and trailer, but far too late for some kinds of evidence to be seen or logged.

BIB
Really? I would expect that, at the very outset of a missing person report, it would be a routine matter to search the RV. Isn't it one of the first things that happens, search the home* of the missing person just to double check that they're not there?

*Or vehicle, hotel room, whatever is their current base.

 

[PommyMommy]

Is there near where the T's were hiking?

Google Maps

It depends on what you consider "near." If we're correct in assuming they were parked at the intersection of Kelbaker and Hidden Hill Rd and Barbara disappeared approx 1/4 mile from the RV, then no. MOO

See map: Google Maps

 

[ChuckMaureen]

"She's got to be out there."

Where are the vultures and other scavengers?

I'm not sure such scavengers would venture a mine shaft or well, but I suppose it is possible. How long would such scavengers linger within the general area? It would have been quick work if it occurred.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

It depends on what you consider "near." If we're correct in assuming they were parked at the intersection of Kelbaker and Hidden Hill Rd and Barbara disappeared approx 1/4 mile from the RV, then no. MOO

See map: Google Maps

I've seen disparity in various descriptions of where the T's were hiking. One of the descriptions placed my search near the broader area depicted in the mapped location.

ETA: note the trail marker visible in the middle of the Google Maps view I posted earlier.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Interesting that through July 16th, they said no sightings of Barbara were found. Beginning the 19th, no evidence of Barbara was found. For me that speaks volumes. There was no evidence that she was there. This of course, is just my opinion.

Just to be super explicitly clear -- are you (and others in the subsequent conversation that followed this post) saying that this wording implies they have no indication she was there that day AT ALL? I mean, let's say it was known with 100% certainty that she was on the trail -- let's say she was seen by multiple witnesses or captured on a fictional trail-cam -- but then the LE/SAR searches still came up emptyhanded, are you thinking that they would use different phrasing than what they actually did use?

 

[rkendmar]

I'm not sure such scavengers would venture a mine shaft or well, but I suppose it is possible. How long would such scavengers linger within the general area? It would have been quick work if it occurred.

Did they use ultrasound in this search?
Or, am I thinking of something else?

 

[Steelslady]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

For years, in desert searches, 3-4 days was the maximum search and searches for bodies beyond that was not common. That was my entire childhood and most of my adulthood. My mom's family had lived in 29 Palms, I lived up a hot canyon bounded on 3 sides by (dry) national forest for much of my life. A friend and neighbor got lost in terrain less dry and hot than where Barbara went missing, the search was 4 days. He has never been seen since. He was 20 years old and would be 61 today.

I am so sorry to hear this- how devastating for you all. There's nothing worse than the not knowing what happened to your loved one.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I do wish some of Barbara's family members or close friends could be interviewed by the local media. It would really help to keep her name out there in the public's eye. Where are you Barbara??

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Did they use ultrasound in this search?
Or, am I thinking of something else?

Ultrasound? Maybe you're thinking of ground-penetrating radar? I doubt it.

 

[10ofRods]

I wonder if BT is a faster walker / hiker than her husband, in general, and he is more of a dawdler. Hence, why she "pulled ahead" of him when he stopped to take a photo(s). If that's the case, maybe this happened often, that they would be separated by a bit of distance sometimes because she liked to go faster. Or was she just more eager to get back to the RV than he was that day? RT said on the MSM video that she "wanted to go back to the RV".

Just pondering how they 'matched up' as hikers, and how their patience levels compare in terms of being willing to wait for each other.

If there were differences in their speed and / or patience levels, hiding the key to their rig under the rock nearby seems a likely compromise so they didn't always have to be neck and neck, and either of them could get in without waiting for the other to catch up.

The only drawback of being flexible about staying together in this case being the desert heat, and only one of them carrying water and a phone. Just don't know what to make of that aspect, whether they did this all the time or not. JMO.

I'm interested in this too. If she was pretty much always ahead of him, I still think she should have had the key. Right before they separated (and I would certainly hope that a hiking partner who falls behind - RT in this case - would not simply abandon the main trail without communication - I would hope that such hikers at least stayed in voice contact, as RT says they did).

So, RT could have handed her the key. People readily forget what "their" rock looked like, so one could have a strong hypothesis that Barbara couldn't find the key right away. Maybe she was over turning various rocks (as RT, oddly, later says he did as well, even though he obviously had to find the key under the original rock or he'd know more about what happened to Barbara).

If Barbara was hot and thirsty, waiting 5 minutes would seem an eternity. At noon-2, there'd be precious little shade near the trailer and leaning against it would be hot. You'd be tempted to sit in the shade as the effects of dehydration and hyperthermia set in. If she additionally had to use the bathroom, it would be tempting to wander off after 5 minutes (to find a private spot, they were at an intersection, the nearby area was thoroughly searched, but she could have gone further - away from the trailer). When a search radius becomes beyond what searchers can get to in a day, everything has to be re-planned.

There were 80 searchers out there for the last few days.

 

[Liwthe]

Oh we're a nosy bunch aren't we! We love to ask questions of folks who seem to be in the know.
So here's another question! How far do you think BT could have gotten walking to hit a destination of some sort?

Amateur opinion and speculation

I’m not in the know more than anyone else. Crowd dynamics interest me, confirmation bias, and other interesting psychological things that occur in groups, and online behavior. So I could talk about that, but it’s not pertinent. There’s quite a few areas of interest, crime being one, as I’ve mentioned. I’m particularly impressed by those that find the long lost missing persons here and give relief to families. But desert survival is not an area of expertise. My expertise is in a very different area.