CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

[rkendmar]

Ultrasound? Maybe you're thinking of ground-penetrating radar? I doubt it.

How does one locate hidden caves, wells or mineshafts?

 

[PommyMommy]

I've seen disparity in various descriptions of where the T's were hiking. One of the descriptions placed my search near the broader area depicted in the mapped location.

Yes, we've seen a number of possible routes they hiked but I don't think SAR would have set up their command center at Kelbaker/Hidden Hill 25 miles away from where the T's were hiking. ? Am I misunderstanding you, ChuckMaureen? Apologies, if so! Google Maps MOO

 

[Cherwell]

I've seen disparity in various descriptions of where the T's were hiking. One of the descriptions placed my search near the broader area depicted in the mapped location.

Some people had been looking at the wrong place, yes. The exact location was confirmed when poster @sroad visited the site during the search, where there was a command centre set up. The police confirmed that it was the same location where the Thomases had parked. If you search back through sroad's posts you'll find some photos of the spot and the search.

 

[LaborDayRN]

How does one locate hidden caves, wells or mineshafts?

Much of the desert is very well mapped. There are people (spelunkers) who make a sport of exploring caves.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

How does one locate hidden caves, wells or mineshafts?

Each of those requires a different approach; i.e., mine shafts should/wells might appear in maps of an area while 'hidden' caves might not be shown on any map and would be located by studying local geographical makeup, water and volcanic features of an area. I'm no expert in any of that but it seems a *thorough* search would at least require referencing said maps and searching areas farther astray from currently-known paths.

 

[rkendmar]

Much of the desert is very well mapped. There are people (spelunkers) who make a sport of exploring caves.

So, can we assume that any caves, wells or abandoned mine shafts in the area were known and searched by SAR?

 

[rkendmar]

Each of those requires a different approach; i.e., mine shafts should/wells might appear in maps of an area while 'hidden' caves might not be shown on any map and would be located by studying local geographical makeup, water and volcanic features of an area. I'm no expert in any of that but it seems a *thorough* search would at least require referencing said maps and searching areas farther astray from currently-known paths.

Thank you.

 

[LaborDayRN]

So, can we assume that any caves, wells or abandoned mine shafts in the area were known and searched by SAR?

I'm not sure everything would show up on a map but I'd assume any known caves, wells or mine shafts would have been searched.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

So, can we assume that any caves, wells or abandoned mine shafts in the area were known and searched by SAR?

If I were RT I would not assume that, but I would *expect* it.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I’m not in the know more than anyone else. Crowd dynamics interest me, confirmation bias, and other interesting psychological things that occur in groups, and online behavior. So I could talk about that, but it’s not pertinent. There’s quite a few areas of interest, crime being one, as I’ve mentioned. I’m particularly impressed by those that find the long lost missing persons here and give relief to families. But desert survival is not an area of expertise. My expertise is in a very different area.

Crowd dynamics are absolutely fascinating, and I do a bit of study on this myself. Thank you for continuing this exploration for BT; your views (even if we don't agree), help us think deeper.

I'm still on the fence. I've dug in on theories before and been so, so, wrong which has opened my eyes alot.
If Barbara is out there, I believe the searches have gone right past her. It happens alot. I keep thinking of the Whistler DJ (I think his name was Mike Grefner). The searchers searched the area where he was found on the ground several times, and just didn't "see" him. Mother Nature embraces remains.

I think my current vote on this is for another search. A *grid* search. On the knees; shoulder to shoulder.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[LAhiker]

Is there near where the T's were hiking?

Google Maps

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Here are some links that I believe are to they area where they were searching. IIRC, one poster (was it @10ofRods?) confirmed with LE that they set up their command post where RT said his truck/camper was when BT disappeared. I think that's at or near the intersection of Kelbaker Road and Hidden Hill Road, but others should correct me if I'm wrong.

Posts by @sroad, who visited the area:
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #2

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

Some Google Maps satellite photos from @DianaElaine
AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

The command post:
West Valley SAR on Twitter

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Here are some links that I believe are to they area where they were searching. IIRC, one poster (was it @10ofRods?) confirmed with LE that they set up their command post where RT said his truck/camper was when BT disappeared. I think that's at or near the intersection of Kelbaker Road and Hidden Hills Road, but others should correct me if I'm wrong.

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #2

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

The command post:
West Valley SAR on Twitter

It appears the T's were hiking near/along a dry river/creek bed... wondering if there were ever dwellings in that particular area.

 

[PommyMommy]

How does one locate hidden caves, wells or mineshafts?

There were quite a few maps of caves and mines posted in thread 1. Maybe some in thread 2 as well. None of them were close to the search area but I'm not sure openings underneath rocks would be mapped as caves (if that was what RT meant as a "cave.") MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Was anything missing from inside the RV?

Was anything around the exterior of the RV missing or disturbed in any way?

Was the vehicle key found where it was originally placed (supposedly hidden under a rock)?

How long was it that the T's ate before BT went missing? What did BT eat?

Did BT write and leave a 'love' or any type of note for RT that morning/day before?

How long was BT carrying the beer can before she went missing?

Did RT also have a beer? If so, how did he manage handling it along with his camera/gear?

How many beers/water bottles were in the RV at the beginning of that leg of the hike?

Could BT have returned to the RV to discard her (maybe empty) beer can in a trash receptacle and then wait outside the vehicle for RT to return? Was all trash accounted for (the T's own trash)?

Was the 'gone missing' location the only location the T's stopped/parked/hiked that day?

Was RT in any of the photos taken that day? Was RT wearing the same clothes in all photos of him that day?

Was BT wearing the same clothes in all photos of her that day?


Thinking and thinking on this case. I wanted to believe the abduction claim, but now I find that theory only as a remote possibility. Occam's, everywhere. The above are throw-away questions at this point. I have a feeling BT is still in the desert; an unfortunate accident must have occurred in which BT was covered or hidden in some fashion.

I believe LE should return to searching the broader location. In previous days, desert heat, fatigue and varied focus may have affected search integrity and completeness. Maybe a large boulder shifted while BT was exploring on/around it? Vegetation? Would BT have felt a need to obscure herself within a large bush/vegetation patch/boulder pile if she need to relieve herself? Might she have followed a running lizard or other desert creature to some obscured location?

Are there old dwelling slabs/basements/wells shown in old maps of the broader location? Would LE have referred to old maps to ensure a complete search?

She's got to be out there.

As I said above, there's no reason to believe they searched the truck and trailer at all. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. If they did, I would think they would have gotten a warrant. I believe he drove home and parked the trailer before heading off to the polygraph. I do not believe they polygraphed him out in the Mojave. Probably in Needles. RT said they wouldn't let him stay at the search site.

Yes, LE would have looked at structures and foundations in the area. The ground is hardpacked sand on top of bedrock sandstone (very hard sandstone) with underground beds of granite (you can see an upthrust on google maps). There is actually some sort of industrial building maybe 5-6 miles further down Kelbaker and then a few more buildings between there and Kelso Depot (some 16 miles away, going by memory, that's where the NP visitor center is).

No way anyone can be buried very deeply (or at all) in that area and easy to see building footprints (and even medium sized rocks) on google satellite imagery.

We don't know exactly how long she was out there with the beer. He called police around 2:30 pm, saying he had looked for her for about an hour. They left home at 8:15. No one knows what she ate or how many beers she had. The two mile hike may have taken them an hour? We don't know. An hour would certainly begin to test most people's heat tolerance at 105F.

Why do the love notes need to be written that morning? Are you thinking suicide? Love notes were produced by RT, but he didn' t mention that they were written in any morning, but that she put them under his pillow (I think? Someone else will remember for sure or correct me).

We don't know what they packed in the RV (how would anyone know that? if they asked RT that during the polygraph, we don't know that, they will not release the polygraph transcript - most likely ever). IIRC, RT says he carried a gallon of water and some more beer? Can't remember.

There is no trash receptacle at that dirt intersection/turn out. There is no trash pickup in Mojave NP, or any nearby federal land. It's all pack in and pack out yourself.

There are no known pictures of BT taken that day (that we know of). The picture of her in the red cap was thought to be older (I think maybe the VI said that).

There was mention by RT of a panorama picture that Barbara took that day (of the land). Presumably the police did look at RT's phone and could see that picture, but no proof BT took it and RT did not say he was in it, he said it was scenery.

We don't know where else they stopped or what else she may have worn that day.

 

[rosesfromangels]

It appears the T's were hiking near/along a dry river/creek bed... wondering if there were ever dwellings in that particular area.

Yes, Mojave and Chemehuevi Indians : )

 

[Liwthe]

Crowd dynamics are absolutely fascinating, and I do a bit of study on this myself. Thank you for continuing this exploration for BT; your views (even if we don't agree), help us think deeper.

I'm still on the fence. I've dug in on theories before and been so, so, wrong which has opened my eyes alot.
If Barbara is out there, I believe the searches have gone right past her. It happens alot. I keep thinking of the Whistler DJ (I think his name was Mike Grefner). The searchers searched the area where he was found on the ground several times, and just didn't "see" him. Mother Nature embraces remains.

I think my current vote on this is for another search. A *grid* search. On the knees; shoulder to shoulder.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Yes, it would be easy to be wrong without much info. I can’t say either knowing so little.

Ouch! That search sounds painful with the cacti!

 

[AnnaGrace]

Just to be super explicitly clear -- are you (and others in the subsequent conversation that followed this post) saying that this wording implies they have no indication she was there that day AT ALL? I mean, let's say it was known with 100% certainty that she was on the trail -- let's say she was seen by multiple witnesses or captured on a fictional trail-cam -- but then the LE/SAR searches still came up emptyhanded, are you thinking that they would use different phrasing than what they actually did use?

Yes. That's how I perceived the change in their wording. The first few days they said no sightings of Barbara. Then it changed to no evidence of Barbara was found. Why the change? I take it as Barbara was not found and no evidence of her was found. Jmo

 

[Liwthe]

As I said above, there's no reason to believe they searched the truck and trailer at all. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. If they did, I would think they would have gotten a warrant. I believe he drove home and parked the trailer before heading off to the polygraph. I do not believe they polygraphed him out in the Mojave. Probably in Needles. RT said they wouldn't let him stay at the search site.

Yes, LE would have looked at structures and foundations in the area. The ground is hardpacked sand on top of bedrock sandstone (very hard sandstone) with underground beds of granite (you can see an upthrust on google maps). There is actually some sort of industrial building maybe 5-6 miles further down Kelbaker and then a few more buildings between there and Kelso Depot (some 16 miles away, going by memory, that's where the NP visitor center is).

No way anyone can be buried very deeply (or at all) in that area and easy to see building footprints (and even medium sized rocks) on google satellite imagery.

We don't know exactly how long she was out there with the beer. He called police around 2:30 pm, saying he had looked for her for about an hour. They left home at 8:15. No one knows what she ate or how many beers she had. The two mile hike may have taken them an hour? We don't know. An hour would certainly begin to test most people's heat tolerance at 105F.

Why do the love notes need to be written that morning? Are you thinking suicide? Love notes were produced by RT, but he didn' t mention that they were written in any morning, but that she put them under his pillow (I think? Someone else will remember for sure or correct me).

We don't know what they packed in the RV (how would anyone know that? if they asked RT that during the polygraph, we don't know that, they will not release the polygraph transcript - most likely ever). IIRC, RT says he carried a gallon of water and some more beer? Can't remember.

There is no trash receptacle at that dirt intersection/turn out. There is no trash pickup in Mojave NP, or any nearby federal land. It's all pack in and pack out yourself.

There are no known pictures of BT taken that day (that we know of). The picture of her in the red cap was thought to be older (I think maybe the VI said that).

There was mention by RT of a panorama picture that Barbara took that day (of the land). Presumably the police did look at RT's phone and could see that picture, but no proof BT took it and RT did not say he was in it, he said it was scenery.

We don't know where else they stopped or what else she may have worn that day.

Excellent! Only thing is the VI said it was a 360 pic, not a panorama. I don’t have experience with them and whether they show both people. You would expect at least RT if BT took it.

 

[Liwthe]

Resources are wasted?

Yes! If you read the post I wrote, I’m saying if the police have evidence that she is not there but aren’t sharing it yet and also mentioned lives risked.

 

[LAhiker]

As I said above, there's no reason to believe they searched the truck and trailer at all.
RSBM
There was mention by RT of a panorama picture that Barbara took that day (of the land). Presumably the police did look at RT's phone and could see that picture, but no proof BT took it and RT did not say he was in it, he said it was scenery.

We don't know where else they stopped or what else she may have worn that day.

Snipped for focus

@10ofRods and everyone, was that said to be the panorama that included a parking area with cars, that RT said should be checked out? I don't remember in which interview(s) RT mentioned that. I think he said they were on some sort of hill or high point. If so, either such a hill would have to be close to the road, or they must've taken another walk. (Assuming BT really did take the picture.)

Was the implication that that panorama was taken close enough to the intersection of Kelbaker Road and Hidden Hill so one could see the pull-out from there? Or did he just seem to be saying that there were other cars at a parking lot that they saw and they should be checked out?

Do you have any idea where the hill with the view of the parking area is, or which parking area could be seen? I wonder whether that area was searched as well... MOO