CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

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I'm hoping LE has all the data needed to solve this disappearance.
Including the picture mentioned by our VI.
Whether it was actually taken that day, their experts will be able to determine.
My hopes for a safe find diminish day by day.
Chi
 
Excellent! Only thing is the VI said it was a 360 pic, not a panorama. I don’t have experience with them and whether they show both people. You would expect at least RT if BT took it.
I was curious about this (and don't have a smartphone myself) so I googled it.

Apparently it's an app that can stitch together multiple photos, so the photographer is not necessarily in it at all. And I suppose even a companion might not be shown if they stayed out of the view of each individual photo that was taken, pre-stitching them together digitally.

I don't know, of course, whether that is the only kind of 360 photo possible or fits what RT was describing.
 
I'm hoping LE has all the data needed to solve this disappearance.
Including the picture mentioned by our VI.
Whether it was actually taken that day, their experts will be able to determine.
My hopes for a safe find diminish day by day.
Chi
Me too sadly- 3 weeks and we know nothing more than we did back then IMO - I’ve come to the conclusion I’ve been spoiled by other agencies and the tidbits they release during these cases - I guess we wait and hope for someone to speak up that they saw her that day somewhere along the way to the spot where the RV was parked .. JMO
 
We know searchers risk their health and sometimes their lives. Most non-LE are volunteers.
My thoughts are with them also.
If the search in Mojave begins again and they find what we sadly expect they might, they're inevitably effected.
I don't think they ever waste their time.
Jmo
Chi
 
Sroads confirmed with their own eyes and pictures where the SAR command was set up.

SBCS Needles Division dispatch logs show Intersection of Kelbaker and Hidden Hill for the place they sent the initial response (where RT was parked).

Coordinates:
34°47'36.6"N 115°36'35.0"W

Did they use ultrasound in this search?
Or, am I thinking of something else?

Maybe you're thinking of thermocam? FLIR? SAR said they could not use it, because the heat profile of the desert was too close to the heat profile of a living human body. And of course, after 24 hours out there. If she was unconscious and on the ground under the sun, her body temp would rise quickly, so they would miss the very person they were looking for with FLIR.

Snipped for focus

@10ofRods and everyone, was that said to be the panorama that included a parking area with cars, that RT said should be checked out? I don't remember in which interview(s) RT mentioned that. I think he said they were on some sort of hill or high point. If so, either such a hill would have to be close to the road, or they must've taken another walk. (Assuming BT really did take the picture.)

Was the implication that that panorama was taken close enough to the intersection of Kelbaker Road and Hidden Hills so one could see the pull-out from there? Or did he just seem to be saying that there were other cars at a parking lot further south and they should be checked out?

Do you have any idea where the parking area might be? I wonder whether that area was searched as well... MOO

There are two other nearby "parking lots" (pullouts, so that faster traffic can pass slower traffic - they are about every 2 miles out there, the one RT chose is one of the bigger ones, it is also at the intersection of two roads - one of them to Vegas, the other one popular with dirt bikers and ATV riders and beginning off roaders like me).

There are also some places that people work (if they climbed to the top of the Granite Hill that's closest to the road, they would have seen that workplace and it likely had cars). If RT showed the picture to LE, I assume they went and talked to the people at that workplace (which is far more likely than there being several people stopped in a pull out).

I wish I knew what area was meant in the panorama photo but I find it interesting that RT took it. We discussed the term 360 vs panorama extensively and the equipment needed for both (or app) and I believe no one is convinced that they had the 360 app or equipment. We really don't know.

I'm just trying to go over the basic facts over and over again, at this point - like the rest of you.
 
bbm

As I said above, there's no reason to believe they searched the truck and trailer at all. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. If they did, I would think they would have gotten a warrant. I believe he drove home and parked the trailer before heading off to the polygraph. I do not believe they polygraphed him out in the Mojave. Probably in Needles. RT said they wouldn't let him stay at the search site.
If LE did not at least ask RT for permission to search the vehicles then they were derelict in their duty IMO. A warrant wouldn't have been necessary if RT consented to a search.
Yes, LE would have looked at structures and foundations in the area. The ground is hardpacked sand on top of bedrock sandstone (very hard sandstone) with underground beds of granite (you can see an upthrust on google maps). There is actually some sort of industrial building maybe 5-6 miles further down Kelbaker and then a few more buildings between there and Kelso Depot (some 16 miles away, going by memory, that's where the NP visitor center is).
Of course LE should/would have searched visible structures and foundations but my question was if LE referenced maps that included mine shafts and wells that might be located within the broader area.
No way anyone can be buried very deeply (or at all) in that area and easy to see building footprints (and even medium sized rocks) on google satellite imagery.
Buried is one thing. Having fallen in to a deep mine shaft, well or other open-hole feature is another.
We don't know exactly how long she was out there with the beer. He called police around 2:30 pm, saying he had looked for her for about an hour. They left home at 8:15. No one knows what she ate or how many beers she had. The two mile hike may have taken them an hour? We don't know. An hour would certainly begin to test most people's heat tolerance at 105F.
I wonder if BT was still drinking from the can or was it empty and she was tired of carrying the durned thing and she wanted to get back to the RV to properly discard it in a receptacle in the RV.
Why do the love notes need to be written that morning? Are you thinking suicide? Love notes were produced by RT, but he didn' t mention that they were written in any morning, but that she put them under his pillow (I think? Someone else will remember for sure or correct me).
I wondered if there was a note(s) that morning/previous evening if they were different in any way, such that they would indicate a change in written expression or showing of other concern as to cognitive processes, i.e., were they typical or did they indicate a diminished or altered mindset.

I never thought suicide as a possibility in this case given what we think we know. There is no indication unless we assume BT wanted not to be found after a self-inflicted demise. I have not assumed such a scenario in this case although it remains as a minuscule possibility.
We don't know what they packed in the RV (how would anyone know that? if they asked RT that during the polygraph, we don't know that, they will not release the polygraph transcript - most likely ever). IIRC, RT says he carried a gallon of water and some more beer? Can't remember.
My query was regarding if RT found those resources intact upon his return to the RV. Had BT arrived to the RV but then left it for whatever reason?
There is no trash receptacle at that dirt intersection/turn out. There is no trash pickup in Mojave NP, or any nearby federal land. It's all pack in and pack out yourself.
I was referring to if BT returned to the RV to discard her beer can in a receptacle in the RV. Was her beer can found there after her disappearance?
There are no known pictures of BT taken that day (that we know of). The picture of her in the red cap was thought to be older (I think maybe the VI said that).

There was mention by RT of a panorama picture that Barbara took that day (of the land). Presumably the police did look at RT's phone and could see that picture, but no proof BT took it and RT did not say he was in it, he said it was scenery.
I wondered if the subjects/compositions of the photographs were typical or consistent with photographs taken during previous hikes. If so, why? If not, I don't see an issue.
We don't know where else they stopped or what else she may have worn that day.
LE, even during a traffic stop, typically asks "where are you coming from" and/or "where are you heading". I would expect LE would have had similar queries for RT. Had the T's been to somewhere previously that day where they interacted with other hikers/tourists/locals? Might someone have followed the T's without them being aware?
 
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BIB
Really? I would expect that, at the very outset of a missing person report, it would be a routine matter to search the RV. Isn't it one of the first things that happens, search the home* of the missing person just to double check that they're not there?

*Or vehicle, hotel room, whatever is their current base.

Vehicles, homes, hotel rooms, real property etc are not routinely searched since probable cause is required in order to obtain a warrant. Illegally obtained evidence is inadmissible in court.
 
Yes. That's how I perceived the change in their wording. The first few days they said no sightings of Barbara. Then it changed to no evidence of Barbara was found. Why the change? I take it as Barbara was not found and no evidence of her was found. Jmo
Right, no evidence meaning something that would indicate she was there.
If they had found her hat, beer cup, a flip flop, or something she was wearing, that would confirm that she was there.
It doesn't mean they think she had never been there at all. They would need more than that, I would assume, to come to that conclusion. And if they had that evidence, I'm assuming they would be following up on whatever leads they have. Imo
 
As I said above, there's no reason to believe they searched the truck and trailer at all. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. If they did, I would think they would have gotten a warrant. I believe he drove home and parked the trailer before heading off to the polygraph. I do not believe they polygraphed him out in the Mojave. Probably in Needles. RT said they wouldn't let him stay at the search site.

Yes, LE would have looked at structures and foundations in the area. The ground is hardpacked sand on top of bedrock sandstone (very hard sandstone) with underground beds of granite (you can see an upthrust on google maps). There is actually some sort of industrial building maybe 5-6 miles further down Kelbaker and then a few more buildings between there and Kelso Depot (some 16 miles away, going by memory, that's where the NP visitor center is).

No way anyone can be buried very deeply (or at all) in that area and easy to see building footprints (and even medium sized rocks) on google satellite imagery.

We don't know exactly how long she was out there with the beer. He called police around 2:30 pm, saying he had looked for her for about an hour. They left home at 8:15. No one knows what she ate or how many beers she had. The two mile hike may have taken them an hour? We don't know. An hour would certainly begin to test most people's heat tolerance at 105F.

Why do the love notes need to be written that morning? Are you thinking suicide? Love notes were produced by RT, but he didn' t mention that they were written in any morning, but that she put them under his pillow (I think? Someone else will remember for sure or correct me).

We don't know what they packed in the RV (how would anyone know that? if they asked RT that during the polygraph, we don't know that, they will not release the polygraph transcript - most likely ever). IIRC, RT says he carried a gallon of water and some more beer? Can't remember.

There is no trash receptacle at that dirt intersection/turn out. There is no trash pickup in Mojave NP, or any nearby federal land. It's all pack in and pack out yourself.

There are no known pictures of BT taken that day (that we know of). The picture of her in the red cap was thought to be older (I think maybe the VI said that).

There was mention by RT of a panorama picture that Barbara took that day (of the land). Presumably the police did look at RT's phone and could see that picture, but no proof BT took it and RT did not say he was in it, he said it was scenery.

We don't know where else they stopped or what else she may have worn that day.
BBM

911 Call
Dispatch Call Log – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department
7/12/2019 3:26:24 PM CR CR191930018 CRR1900230 MISPER NAT 936** HIDDEN HILLS RD, KEL

Husband of Woman Who Vanished During Mojave Desert Hike: 'I Just Want Her Back'
They were on their way back to the camper when Bob said his wife started pulling ahead. He told her he wanted to take a picture of a rock formation and as he put his camera away, he saw her rounding a corner.
 
I think it’s obvious those places get searched. Especially the RV. What I’m saying is that they searched the area where RT said she was missing for the full amount of time anyone could have possibly survived. After that, these searches are called off because it’s for body retrieval, and expense/safety issues become more prevalent. This was explained earlier by someone who does these searches.

At the level of investment of resources we really can’t infer they didn’t believe there was some possibility she was there and didn’t have enough suspicion or evidence not to search there.

Whether that’s changed and new info had come to light we don’t know. But hopefully they inform the public before more resources are wasted, or lives risked in the heat.

In the very beginning of the case, it is a dire emergency to search where she is said to have been seen last. They are not going to waste time searching computers and interviewing friends and neighbours, etc. , while she could be dying of heat stroke in the desert.

After they finished the initial 'emergency' searches, their warrants were all in place, and they switched the case over to Special Investigations, which handles violent crimes.

So now they are seriously looking at the possibility of a criminal incident or a true missing person, or even a voluntary missing person. Call logs and ping maps and emails and interviews will fill in the blanks.
 
bbm

I wonder if BT was still drinking from the can or was it empty and she was tired of carrying the durned thing and she wanted to get back to the RV to properly discard it in a receptacle in the RV.

My query was regarding if RT found those resources intact upon his return to the RV. Had BT arrived to the RV but then left it for whatever reason?

I was referring to if BT returned to the RV to discard her beer can in a receptacle in the RV. Was her beer can found there after her disappearance?

Snipped by me. Just to clarify, are you wondering if Barbara may have found the key, visited the RV and replaced it under the rock before she disappeared?
 
BBM

911 Call
Dispatch Call Log – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department
7/12/2019 3:26:24 PM CR CR191930018 CRR1900230 MISPER NAT 936** HIDDEN HILLS RD, KEL

Husband of Woman Who Vanished During Mojave Desert Hike: 'I Just Want Her Back'
They were on their way back to the camper when Bob said his wife started pulling ahead. He told her he wanted to take a picture of a rock formation and as he put his camera away, he saw her rounding a corner.

Thank you. Unfortunately I couldn't get the link to work.
Any other links that might work for me???
 
Snipped by me. Just to clarify, are you wondering if Barbara may have found the key, visited the RV and replaced it under the rock before she disappeared?

Since RT hadn't yet returned to the RV while BT was there she may have done that very thing. I don't think we should assume BT never made it back to the RV unless RT is absolutely sure she did not. That's why I am wondering as to what may have been different in the the RV when RT returned. Was another beer/more water missing, BT's beer can found in the RV, her hat left there or other clothing missing from? These details are significant.
 
Did they use ultrasound in this search?
Or, am I thinking of something else?

Maybe you're thinking of thermocamera? FLIR? SAR said they could not use it, because the heat profile of the desert was too close to the heat profile of a living human body. And of course, after 24 hours out there. If she was unconscious and on the ground under the sun, her body temp would rise quickly, so they would miss the very person they were looking for with FLIR.
 
In the very beginning of the case, it is a dire emergency to search where she is said to have been seen last. They are not going to waste time searching computers and interviewing friends and neighbours, etc. , while she could be dying of heat stroke in the desert.

After they finished the initial 'emergency' searches, their warrants were all in place, and they switched the case over to Special Investigations, which handles violent crimes.

So now they are seriously looking at the possibility of a criminal incident or a true missing person, or even a voluntary missing person. Call logs and ping maps and emails and interviews will fill in the blanks.
From what I’ve seen, they do both concurrently. They send specialists to search terrain like that and investigate at the same time. Within a couple of days we hear RT has been interrogated, polygraphed, and according to VI handed his phone in.
 
Since RT hadn't yet returned to the RV while BT was there she may have done that very thing. I don't think we should assume BT never made it back to the RV unless RT is absolutely sure she did not. That's why I am wondering as to what may have been different in the the RV when RT returned. Was another beer/more water missing, BT's beer can found in the RV, her hat left there or other clothing missing from? These details are significant.

Good thoughts. Based on his television interview, it sounds as though he believed she was abducted very quickly (within minutes of her turning the corner). But he may not have accurately estimated the time he was taking a photo.
 
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