CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #5

[Dion]

Not if she were feeling heat exhaustion or needed more fluids. It doesn’t sound that wild to me. Just the thought of air conditioning might have been an incentive, DYT?

Amateur opinion and speculation

If she wasn't feeling well, he should have gone with her. If she was in danger of collapsing from heat exhaustion, I can't imagine leaving her just to take a picture.

 

[PommyMommy]

Beer in What?
Someone posted about BT carrying a beer-filled insulated travel mug.

RT said her beer was in a "travel container." Struck me as funny phrase. In early interview I saw, no mention of 'insulated;' sorry, no link. Possibly reporter used ^ term, but I believe RT said it.
In recent pix, did BT hold drink in travel container'? Does LE have pix from that day, w 'travel container' like any below?
- beer can or bottle, in a kuzi/coozie, foam or neoprene insulating holder, often w brand, text, images, etc.
- Solo brand plastic cup, no lid, open to bugs & debris floating in air: Yuck.
- stadium cup, a heavy duty plastic cup. Ditto ^ no-lid & bugs/debris: Yuck.
- commuter cup, for truck drink holder. Drinking/straw hole: lid keeps out bugs.
- ceramic mug w hinged metal lid (think trad'l German beer stein. Doubtful. Okay, very doubtful. Very. Very.
^ is relevant mostly/only if searches are resumed, either in same place or other locations. Finding the specific 'travel container' where-ever it is, could show where she is or had been. Probably lots of cans in coozies, Solo cups, and stadium cups along highways and out in the desert. We could hope for fingerprints or DNA.

Red BBM

RT said, "She was wearing a bikini and she had a beer in her hand."

dbdb11 said his sister told him:

"travel cup"

hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can - robbie and said he needs to talk to daddy and that barbara’s missing. it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. the impression robbie gave me was that she was wearing a red cap, a bikini and carrying a travel cup with beer in it. they lost sight of each other for 5-10 minutes before she “vanished” and he went back to their rv to see if she had returned but it was still locked so that meant she hadn’t come back yet (they had put the key under a rock which they both knew the location of). so he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there either. he still wasn’t worried at this point because.. i don’t remember why he said he wasn’t yet worried. maybe because they both knew the area? or this was a regular thing? idk not sure but he continued searching for her on his own. by around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. police arrived like 2 hours later and searched for her. robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. nothing. she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. also apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info.

robbie said that he just wants barbara back and will press no charges against the person who abducted her so long as they return her. the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear ..abc reached out? idk if it was abc but some mainstream news outlet and i definitely heard nancy grace mentioned. robbie’s done some interviews as he wants to get the word out. but he hasn’t seen or read any of the released news and comments. it’s too much

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. he also said it’s difficult to call into china and said his calls rarely go through so if we want to ask any questions or talk more we should call him.

txt msg from my sister. wish i.asked.for this.earlier...

dbdb11 also called it a "travel mug"

Would like to clarify the beer in a travel mug detail was provided by my sister. She was holding the phone, on speaker phone, as Robbie initially explained to my father why Barbara would no longer make it. That was probably a choked up convo, and she may have mistaken the detail.

dbdb11 also described it as a "travel mug or coozie?"

FIND ATTACHED and definitely take a look on your own if you'd like.

They parked the camper on the pull off, just speculating here of course, hid truck/RV key under a rock they both would be able to find quite easily, they crossed over Kelbaker road (with a camera?, a gallon of water, at least one beer in a travel mug or coozie?, Barb in either bikini top or possibly bra? Robbie carrying a pack of some kind?), once on the other side of the road they proceeded to walk (NOT HIKE) approx 2 miles (exactly 2.2 miles according to Robbie's correspondence with us) towards a hill that could be seen from the parking area just ahead of where they pulled off the road.

Once on this hill Barb decided to take a panorama photo of their surroundings (which I assume includes Robbie in the panorama. If it is a 360 photo as Rob initially suggested they likely brought a 360 camera, and Barb and Robbie should both be in this image). Robbie claims the 360/panorama photo Barb took from this hill includes cars in the parking lot below, potentially even license plate numbers? and was very upset police were not looking into the owners of these cars as potential suspects (and were instead suspecting him, and seemingly ignoring his statements on the day she went missing). I assume if the cars were clearly visible in the picture, surely Rob and Barb would have been plainly visible to anyone in a car in the parking lot below the hill as well.

As they were on the way back from the hill, towards their RV, there was a rock formation Robbie implies they were both interested in. He stopped to take a photo of this rock formation and "asked Barb to stay with me," but she went on ahead anyway. Sounds quite stubborn of her. Perhaps they had some kind of disagreement? In any case, he says she wanted to get back to the RV.

This is where Barb rounds a corner, we can assume she rounds a boulder outcrop that puts her out of Robbie's sight. Robbie has never specified how long he spent taking photos of this rock formation, but he claimed to us that police have photos of Barb on the walk, that day, and that police have photos of the rock formation as well. Robbie and Barb have no known social media accounts where they share photos of their adventures with friends/family.

As Robbie made his way back to the RV he did not have any concerns. The RV was less than 1/4 mile (1000 ft) away from where he last saw her, he has claimed, and was never concerned about how far ahead she could have gotten, between him and the RV. He made his way back to the RV and was not immediately concerned that he didn't see her there. He was hot, he has told us, and poured some water on a towel and put it on his head. After a few minutes of her not turning up he began to grow concerned. He did not immediately look for any signs of tire tracks, or signs of abduction/kidnapping. He proceeded to shout and wave his arms, as well as backtrack to a cave they both knew was in the area. His thinking was, perhaps she went there to get out of the sun (between when she left him and the few minutes it took him to get back to the RV from the rock formation).

According to public records he called the police around 3pm?, and according to Robbie they arrived two hours after he called? On arrival the search and rescue crews destroyed any evidence of a potential crime scene, according to Robbie. If this account is accurate, what did Robbie do in those two hours?

Robbie served in Vietnam, and also has years of experience visiting the Mojave desert, including familiarity with Kelbaker's immediate geological features, and, I would assume, a keen sense for his surroundings. He didn't think to look for signs of abduction, or a struggle? He didn't follow up with the cars parked in the parking lot just down the road (but did check in a cave???)? He didn't look for signs of a struggle around the RV but concludes she must have been abducted? That abduction is the ONLY logical conclusion?

I think we are missing some vital information here and would like to hear a much more detailed account of what Robbie did between taking photos of the rock formation, returning to the RV, searching the area for Barb, calling police, and search and rescue finally arriving. I think our timeline of events could do with clarification.

FOR REFERENCE:

Walking speed 1000 meters or 1 kilometer per 10 minutes ( m/min – km/min ), converted to foot per 10 minutes equals 3280.84 feet per 10 minutes ( ft/min ).

According to the above generalisation Robbie was approx 3 plus MINUTES away from the RV.

I would like to include some further speculation for everyone to consider. Robbie drove across state lines to the only S on a quiet road, the first stage of an otherwise undefined camping trip. He hasn't told any of us anymore about what this trip entailed, or what they were initially planning. They pulled off the road in a place with enough room for other cars to pull off as well. They began their walk in the Mojave around/ or not long after HIGH NOON, in RECORD HEAT. This all happened on a Friday, a weekday, when many others who might otherwise be hiking and exploring the desert area, would have more likely been at work. Regular hikers familiar with the area, and other locals have expressed it would be foolish and naive to wander into the Mojave for a casual walk at this time of day (unless of course your plans required not being seen by anyone else).

 

[al66pine]

Upthread someone mentioned (my paraphrasing >>>) there's a lot of prep for a trip to China, and not an easy place to get to.

Not sure I'm following the line of thinking.
IIRC, BT traveled to HK in May 2018, so had a passport then. Unless it had expired since, she already had that covered. For US travelers to Hong Kong, looks straightforward, per St. Dept. website:
"PASSPORT VALIDITY:
One month beyond the date of your intended stay
BLANK PASSPORT PAGES:
One page required for entry stamp
TOURIST VISA REQUIRED:
Not required for stays under 90 days
VACCINATIONS:
None"
^ Hong Kong International Travel Information
Of course, there's more prep: clothing, cosmetics, meds, etc., all the usual for any trip away from home.

Not easy to get to?
Hong Kong Airlines flies HK to LAX (well, it's a looooong swim across Pacific ).
Also ~15 cities in China to HK; 7 cities in Japan to HK. And many other cities in Asia.

I could be overlooking something. Maybe there's more to it than above.

 

[rosesfromangels]

If she wasn't feeling well, he should have gone with her. If she was in danger of collapsing from heat exhaustion, I can't imagine leaving her just to take a picture.

Frankly, a lot of men seem to lack in this department. Ducking....

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Frankly, a lot of men seem to lack in this department. Ducking....

You're with the wrong ones

 

[deugirtni]

I am sure LE has evidence of Barbara having been there, either that same day or within the first few days.

The Colorado River Sherif Department mentions time and time again: Barbara Thomas, last seen
Kelbaker Road/Hidden Hills near I-40.

No use in insisting on this if they have proof of the contrary imo.

Same for letting 100 ppl with dogs searching for 10 days in the Mojave desert under extreme temperatures. IMO

I have to disagree with this mindset. I followed a case where the woman was said to have been last seen by her 'ex' (he said he was dropping her off after having picked her up from work) at her home. They said this for ages. Meanwhile the roomie that lived in that same house, had *not* seen her at all, nobody had. It wasn't until later when the ex became their full-fledged suspect, for whatever reason, that LE said she'd last been seen at work. I believe that at the time, police had to go with all they had, which was the ex's story that he'd dropped her at home. If they had said, 'last seen at work' even though the ex was telling them he'd driven her home, he would've known immediately that he was a suspect, but police don't always like suspects to know this until they do more investigating. They can't *not* search for BT where her husband who was with her, said she was last located, because what if he is telling the truth? I'm certain that tons of money is wasted in many investigations just because of having to go with what they're being told by someone who should know. Not their fault, they're not psychic, they have to do their due diligence in investigating fully before they can state otherwise. imo. Also, if dogs had alerted on BT's scent at all in the desert where she was said to have been, I believe police would have said so, and then elaborated that the dogs found her scent, but quickly lost it, or something to that effect. Instead what are we being told? Was it 'no evidence of her having been there'? I forget what their wording was.

 

[al66pine]

The Mysterious Beer Vessel

Red BBM
RT said, "She was wearing a bikini and she had a beer in her hand."
dbdb11 said his sister told him:
"travel cup"
dbdb11 also called it a "travel mug"
dbdb11 also described it as a "travel mug or coozie?"

@ PommyMommy Thanks for your post and your links. You always have links. For this, I just could not find the interview, darn it.

Whether RT himself said beer, travel mug, travel cup, coozie, or travel container, and assuming it is accurate description, then searchers still need to look for a kuzi/coozie, Solo or other brand plastic cup, stadium cup, and commuter cup. That's a wiiiiiiiiiiide variety.

If RT would give a more specific, accurate description, it could be narrowed down
If LEOs entered 5th wheel at the site that day, maybe they could recall a specific kind to look for. But then again, every kitchen seem to have an odd-ball mug floating around, so that's not totally reliable.

Sigh. I wish we could nail down something definite about something, well, besides the fact that BT is missing. Thanks again, PommyMommy for your excellent recall (maybe my brain needs a tune-up).

 

[rkendmar]

I have to disagree with this mindset. I followed a case where the woman was said to have been last seen by her 'ex' (he said he was dropping her off after having picked her up from work) at her home. They said this for ages. Meanwhile the roomie that lived in that same house, had *not* seen her at all, nobody had. It wasn't until later when the ex became their full-fledged suspect, for whatever reason, that LE said she'd last been seen at work. I believe that at the time, police had to go with all they had, which was the ex's story that he'd dropped her at home. If they had said, 'last seen at work' even though the ex was telling them he'd driven her home, he would've known immediately that he was a suspect, but police don't always like suspects to know this until they do more investigating. They can't *not* search for BT where her husband who was with her, said she was last located, because what if he is telling the truth? I'm certain that tons of money is wasted in many investigations just because of having to go with what they're being told by someone who should know. Not their fault, they're not psychic, they have to do their due diligence in investigating fully before they can state otherwise. imo. Also, if dogs had alerted on BT's scent at all in the desert where she was said to have been, I believe police would have said so, and then elaborated that the dogs found her scent, but quickly lost it, or something to that effect. Instead what are we being told? Was it 'no evidence of her having been there'? I forget what their wording was.

IIRC, LE used the term "no evidence" to describe what was found during the search.
They did not specifically state that BT was never there, though.

 

[10ofRods]

IIRC, LE used the term "no evidence" to describe what was found during the search.
They did not specifically state that BT was never there, though.

I believe that if the dogs had picked up a scent, West Valley SARS would have mentioned it and LE would mention it (so that any one out in that area could be on the lookout, knowing where the scent ended, for whatever reason). It would be an enormously important clue, not a "no evidence" found. When they concluded the search, they said 9 days of searching, no evidence of Barbara.

No scent. No beer coozie. No hat. No foot prints. Nothing.

 

[MassGuy]

I believe that if the dogs had picked up a scent, West Valley SARS would have mentioned it and LE would mention it (so that any one out in that area could be on the lookout, knowing where the scent ended, for whatever reason). It would be an enormously important clue, not a "no evidence" found. When they concluded the search, they said 9 days of searching, no evidence of Barbara.

No scent. No beer coozie. No hat. No foot prints. Nothing.

If Barb was ever there, I’ll eat MY hat.

 

[kay74]

I still would like to know if dbdb11 has called RT recently or has called her son.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

IIRC, LE used the term "no evidence" to describe what was found during the search.
They did not specifically state that BT was never there, though.

Since BT was said only to be wearing a bikini and a red cap, and carrying a beer we'd have to assume there wouldn't be much else LE could discover, except of course bodily fluids, signs of a struggle, a perp's intentional and/or unintentional discards or virtually anything else that other travelers/hikers may have left in the area.

Wondering... would such an area be that clean of debri? I know it's a "remote location" but apparently it's a popular remote location (rock formations, cave, etc.). I'd expect an old empty water bottle or two, an empty bag of Cheetos or at least something of that nature.

Did we hear, "We found some items and have sent them to the lab." No.

LE said: "no evidence". Hmm. That's one clean desert! Doesn't seem like the "America" we know....

 

[rkendmar]

I believe that if the dogs had picked up a scent, West Valley SARS would have mentioned it and LE would mention it (so that any one out in that area could be on the lookout, knowing where the scent ended, for whatever reason). It would be an enormously important clue, not a "no evidence" found. When they concluded the search, they said 9 days of searching, no evidence of Barbara.

No scent. No beer coozie. No hat. No foot prints. Nothing.

I agree.
We have little information and neither LE nor the SAR team have been asked specifically if the dogs ever 'hit' on BT's scent.
The dogs were brought in the same day BT was reported missing (according to RT).
Yes, it was hot and dry but this SAR team works in desert environments and they most likely arrived at the scene after 6pm, when things would start cooling off.

 

[10ofRods]

bbm



Since BT was said only to be wearing a bikini and a red cap, and carrying a beer we'd have to assume there wouldn't be much else LE could discover, except of course bodily fluids, signs of a struggle, a perp's intentional and/or unintentional discards or virtually anything else that other travelers/hikers may have left in the area.

Wondering... would such an area be that clean of debri? I know it's a "remote location" but apparently it's a popular remote location (rock formations, cave, etc.). I'd expect an old empty water bottle or two, an empty bag of Cheetos or at least something of that nature.

Did we hear, "We found some items and have sent them to the lab." No.

LE said: "no evidence". Hmm. That's one clean desert! Doesn't seem like the "America" we know....

Truthfully, you'd find all that stuff right off the freeway. People like to throw it someplace where there are grasses (and the gas stations water their medians, so nearby those places, weeds and grasses grow). I'm guessing that if there were trash, it would have been blown down the highway and caught along the road, wind is almost always from the east out there (the famous Santa Anas). Stuff grows higher along the road, too, because of run-off when it does rain.

Only rarely do I see cheeto bags or similar at desert trailheads. Or at the trailheads right in my area (Santa Monica mountain area). Tons and tons of people, but very little trash. In parks, yes, kids go and break bottles against rocks. But there were no rocks right near that turn-out.

I pick up plastic bottles whenever I see them, so does everyone else I know (and I'm of an age where lots of people I know go out to the desert). Retirees pick 'em up because they're worth money in California.

The actual trail that RT says they took is not that popular, IMO. I haven't been down Kelbaker road in more than a year, but it's not dissimilar from roads near Vasquez Rocks or Frazier Park, and those areas have trash near the freeway - but not up in the areas that rangers patrol and where people come to enjoy scenery.

I just wish LE had looked inside the RV and Truck, but I don't think they did that.

 

[PommyMommy]

bbm

Since BT was said only to be wearing a bikini and a red cap, and carrying a beer we'd have to assume there wouldn't be much else LE could discover, except of course bodily fluids, signs of a struggle, a perp's intentional and/or unintentional discards or virtually anything else that other travelers/hikers may have left in the area.

Wondering... would such an area be that clean of debri? I know it's a "remote location" but apparently it's a popular remote location (rock formations, cave, etc.). I'd expect an old empty water bottle or two, an empty bag of Cheetos or at least something of that nature.

Did we hear, "We found some items and have sent them to the lab." No.

LE said: "no evidence". Hmm. That's one clean desert! Doesn't seem like the "America" we know....

There has been no evidence of Barbara Thomas located on previous days.

No evidence of Barbara was located today.

July 22nd - The investigation continues into the whereabouts of missing person Barbara Thomas from SBSD - Colorado River Sheriffs Department : Nixle

 

[artsy1]

I didn't know that polygraphs are reliable enough to prove if someone is lying or not.

If they were I would think that the results would routinely used in court. JMO


Admissability of Polygraph Tests in Court


Admissability of Polygraph Tests in Court

Polygraph tests are not reliable.

Years ago, my sister, her best friend and my dad were all invited to participate in a polygraph training exercise. One person out of the group of 12 was made to set a fire, one person was made to witness it, and the rest were totally oblivious to what was happening. The police officers were to try to figure out who was who through polygraph tests. They figured out the friend witnessed the event (CORRECT), but also thought my dad witnessed it, too (WRONG). They never figured out who set the fire (MY SISTER) - and she said they made her physically light a match and start a fire so it would be ingrained in her subconscious.

So I don't trust polygraph tests. MOO

 

[GordianKnot]

<modsnip - quoted off topic post was removed>

This ain't rocket science.

It's Logic 101.

Basic deductive reasoning skills tell us that the overwhelming odds here are that BT was likely never in that location that day.

JMO.

 

[rkendmar]

Truthfully, you'd find all that stuff right off the freeway. People like to throw it someplace where there are grasses (and the gas stations water their medians, so nearby those places, weeds and grasses grow). I'm guessing that if there were trash, it would have been blown down the highway and caught along the road, wind is almost always from the east out there (the famous Santa Anas). Stuff grows higher along the road, too, because of run-off when it does rain.

Only rarely do I see cheeto bags or similar at desert trailheads. Or at the trailheads right in my area (Santa Monica mountain area). Tons and tons of people, but very little trash. In parks, yes, kids go and break bottles against rocks. But there were no rocks right near that turn-out.

I pick up plastic bottles whenever I see them, so does everyone else I know (and I'm of an age where lots of people I know go out to the desert). Retirees pick 'em up because they're worth money in California.

The actual trail that RT says they took is not that popular, IMO. I haven't been down Kelbaker road in more than a year, but it's not dissimilar from roads near Vasquez Rocks or Frazier Park, and those areas have trash near the freeway - but not up in the areas that rangers patrol and where people come to enjoy scenery.

I just wish LE had looked inside the RV and Truck, but I don't think they did that.

I think you are correct that LE did not look inside the RV and truck at the time of the search.
A previous poster (a verified attorney?) stated that if they had, even with RT's permission, it could possibly cause legal difficulties if this case ever ends up in a courtroom.

 

[Teche]

Polygraph tests are not reliable.

Years ago, my sister, her best friend and my dad were all invited to participate in a polygraph training exercise. One person out of the group of 12 was made to set a fire, one person was made to witness it, and the rest were totally oblivious to what was happening. The police officers were to try to figure out who was who through polygraph tests. They figured out the friend witnessed the event (CORRECT), but also thought my dad witnessed it, too (WRONG). They never figured out who set the fire (MY SISTER) - and she said they made her physically light a match and start a fire so it would be ingrained in her subconscious.

So I don't trust polygraph tests. MOO

Wow, thanks for sharing!

 

[RANCH]

I believe that if the dogs had picked up a scent, West Valley SARS would have mentioned it and LE would mention it (so that any one out in that area could be on the lookout, knowing where the scent ended, for whatever reason). It would be an enormously important clue, not a "no evidence" found. When they concluded the search, they said 9 days of searching, no evidence of Barbara.

No scent. No beer coozie. No hat. No foot prints. Nothing.

Are you saying that the scent dogs would have to detected BT's scent if she was there? 100% certainty? Or something less than that percentage?