GUILTY CA - Boat fire near Santa Cruz Island; 34 missing, Sept 2019 *captain charged*

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This article was written by a British diver but I think it summarizes well what we know so far and he provides some additional information based on his personal experiences. He is trying to clear up some of the miscommunication by MSM.

Also, hi! I hope you don’t mind me jumping into your discussion. I have been following this story really closely and decided to see if there was a WS thread on it :)

Californian Dive Boat Fatal Fire
 
I have been wondering about the person sleeping in the top bunk where the escape hatch was. If it had been me sleeping in there and I had already spent at least one night in that bunk, I feel like I would be thinking about that hatch and pondering what to do if I needed to open it to escape. It would be inches from the person’s face! Even if I didn’t really think or expect to need to throw it open, I would be ready.
So it’s so crazy to me that by the time there were any alarms going off or that person awakened to smoke it was too engulfed above the hatch to throw it open and at least that ONE person to get out. Not one single person.
 
happyday said:
I have been wondering about the person sleeping in the top bunk where the escape hatch was. If it had been me sleeping in there and I had already spent at least one night in that bunk, I feel like I would be thinking about that hatch and pondering what to do if I needed to open it to escape. It would be inches from the person’s face! Even if I didn’t really think or expect to need to throw it open, I would be ready.
So it’s so crazy to me that by the time there were any alarms going off or that person awakened to smoke it was too engulfed above the hatch to throw it open and at least that ONE person to get out. Not one single person.
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The boat wasn’t full. There is always the possibility that no one was in that bunk.
 
If charges are brought, prosecutors are likely to apply the federal Seaman’s Manslaughter Statute, which predates the Civil War and was enacted to punish negligent captains, engineers and pilots for deadly steamboat accidents that killed thousands. Prosecutors need prove only simple negligence or misconduct on the part of the captain or crew. While the law was not widely used after being written in 1838 and beefed up in 1852, it has been used more frequently in the 21st century, said maritime attorney Kierstan Carlson. It was cited in the 2003 Staten Island ferry crash that killed 11, the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil rig blowout and the sinking last summer of a duck boat in Missouri that killed 17.
Criminal Probe in Deadly California Boat Fire | The Crime Report
 
imstilla.grandma said:
If charges are brought, prosecutors are likely to apply the federal Seaman’s Manslaughter Statute, which predates the Civil War and was enacted to punish negligent captains, engineers and pilots for deadly steamboat accidents that killed thousands. Prosecutors need prove only simple negligence or misconduct on the part of the captain or crew. While the law was not widely used after being written in 1838 and beefed up in 1852, it has been used more frequently in the 21st century, said maritime attorney Kierstan Carlson. It was cited in the 2003 Staten Island ferry crash that killed 11, the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil rig blowout and the sinking last summer of a duck boat in Missouri that killed 17.
Criminal Probe in Deadly California Boat Fire | The Crime Report
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Yes. It appears that this is the same statute that triggered the Conception's owner to file a Limitation of Liability Action and also explains why there is a criminal investigation being conducted -- the law makes mere negligence a Federal crime in certain circumstances. If you read the very dry law review article attached, especially the summary of US v. O'Keefe, it gives a pretty good understanding of what's going on here from a legal perspective.

https://www.joneswalker.com/images/content/1/1/v2/1153/258.pdf
 
I think the thing that is the most perplexing to me is that the crew up top heard nothing until a thump and then the middle deck at least was fully engulfed at that point. If the passengers in the bunk had awoken to smoke, wouldn't they have yelled and made noise, and wouldn't the crew have been able to hear them? No one has ever reported hearing any sounds indicating anyone was alive down there. And this was a short time-frame -- it had been less than an hour since the last crew member left the galley I believe, so whatever happened, happened fast. Could a rapid fire incapacitate them from smoke that quickly? Or was there carbon monoxide that knocked them out first? Can they even tell the difference in an autopsy if a person first was exposed to carbon monoxide and then smoke? If the ship was all electric, could there be any source of carbon monoxide? Could the fire have been rapid enough that they would die from smoke inhalation without a chance to respond? What kind of gas could be trapped inside that would cause that rapid of a fire? I think I read that they stored the scuba tanks outside on the back deck. And why didn't the crew smell smoke? Was the smoke unable to escape from the lower deck and so was forced into the bunk? Anyway, I apologize if this has been hashed over before, but IMHO it's just hard to imagine how this could have happened.
 
pentimento said:
I think the thing that is the most perplexing to me is that the crew up top heard nothing until a thump and then the middle deck at least was fully engulfed at that point. If the passengers in the bunk had awoken to smoke, wouldn't they have yelled and made noise, and wouldn't the crew have been able to hear them? No one has ever reported hearing any sounds indicating anyone was alive down there. And this was a short time-frame -- it had been less than an hour since the last crew member left the galley I believe, so whatever happened, happened fast. Could a rapid fire incapacitate them from smoke that quickly? Or was there carbon monoxide that knocked them out first? Can they even tell the difference in an autopsy if a person first was exposed to carbon monoxide and then smoke? If the ship was all electric, could there be any source of carbon monoxide? Could the fire have been rapid enough that they would die from smoke inhalation without a chance to respond? What kind of gas could be trapped inside that would cause that rapid of a fire? I think I read that they stored the scuba tanks outside on the back deck. And why didn't the crew smell smoke? Was the smoke unable to escape from the lower deck and so was forced into the bunk? Anyway, I apologize if this has been hashed over before, but IMHO it's just hard to imagine how this could have happened.
Click to expand...

Has there been any mention of smoke alarms? Were there any onboard?
 
wary said:
Has there been any mention of smoke alarms? Were there any onboard?
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There were at a minimum heat sensors in the galley because they were installed/replaced immediately after an inspection. The boat was up to code so if the code is to have fire detectors in the bunk area then I assume they did. I don’t know what the code is for that boat though. If they did have detectors i’m not sure if they are required to be connected to detectors on other levels of the boat though. The one thing I’ve learned from this WS thread is that, as a lay person, trying to decipher the safety code for a specific vessel is challenging.
 
pentimento said:
I think the thing that is the most perplexing to me is that the crew up top heard nothing until a thump and then the middle deck at least was fully engulfed at that point. If the passengers in the bunk had awoken to smoke, wouldn't they have yelled and made noise, and wouldn't the crew have been able to hear them? No one has ever reported hearing any sounds indicating anyone was alive down there. And this was a short time-frame -- it had been less than an hour since the last crew member left the galley I believe, so whatever happened, happened fast. Could a rapid fire incapacitate them from smoke that quickly? Or was there carbon monoxide that knocked them out first? Can they even tell the difference in an autopsy if a person first was exposed to carbon monoxide and then smoke? If the ship was all electric, could there be any source of carbon monoxide? Could the fire have been rapid enough that they would die from smoke inhalation without a chance to respond? What kind of gas could be trapped inside that would cause that rapid of a fire? I think I read that they stored the scuba tanks outside on the back deck. And why didn't the crew smell smoke? Was the smoke unable to escape from the lower deck and so was forced into the bunk? Anyway, I apologize if this has been hashed over before, but IMHO it's just hard to imagine how this could have happened.
Click to expand...

Sooo many questions....

smoke inhalation can kill fast. When fire burns it removes the oxygen from the environment and replaces it with toxic fumes, especially when there is paint, fabric, plastics etc burning. It can render you unconscious well before the heat gets to you. If the toxic fumes were sucked down into the bunk area then they could have knocked everyone unconscious and then killed them. I don’t think it would be carbon monoxide but just a combination of toxic stuff. People die in house fires from smoke inhalation all the time, it’s effects are definitely fast.

ETA: I meant that I didn’t think it was carbon monoxide directly...such as from a gas leak. Carbon monoxide may have played a part in the toxic fumes though.
 
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“Smoke inhalation results in three physiological types of injury: (a) thermal injury predominantly to the upper airway; (b) chemical injury to the upper and lower respiratory tract; and (c) systemic effects of the toxic gases such as CO and CN. Early deaths in fire are predominantly due to hypoxia, which results from a lethal synergistic effect of low oxygen (O2) levels (due to massive O2 consumption during combustion) and inhalation of high concentrations of CO and CN (resulting in inability to use O2 at tissue level).[6] The major pathophysiological change is edema formation in the respiratory system (airway and lungs).”

“Asphyxia from CO toxicity is the main cause of rapid death among the victims of fire.[6] As O2 is consumed, incomplete combustion predominates, generating CO”

“CN poisoning affects the central nervous system, respiratory system, and cardiovascular system, proportionate to the concentration of cyanide inhaled.[21,22] The symptoms of CN toxicity vary from tachycardia, tachypnea, dyspnea, drowsiness, and headache at low concentration to cardiac arrhythmias, hypotension, convulsions, paralysis, cardiorespiratory collapse, and coma at high concentration (>100 ppm).”



Smoke Inhalation Injury: Etiopathogenesis, Diagnosis, and Management
 
Shaz14 said:
This article was written by a British diver but I think it summarizes well what we know so far and he provides some additional information based on his personal experiences. He is trying to clear up some of the miscommunication by MSM.

Also, hi! I hope you don’t mind me jumping into your discussion. I have been following this story really closely and decided to see if there was a WS thread on it :)

Californian Dive Boat Fatal Fire
Click to expand...
That's a good article. I know I got a few clarifications from it:

"... The owner of the Truth Aquatics liveaboard fleet - Glen Fritzler - was interviewed by Natalie Brunell from Spectrum 1 news.

This is a precis of Glen Fritzler's comments.

- "The crew feel horrible, it is probably survivor's guilt. They are an emotional wreck. One crewman perished. They were stationed down below decks with passengers." ...

- There was no type of accelerant in the boat. No gas, no propane, no diesel. It is all electric." ... [Editor Note: the Conception was powered by 550-horsepower Detroit Diesel engines, with a total fuel capacity of 1,600 gallons]. ...There were some oxygen cylinders, some air cylinders and Nitrox 32 on the back deck. The back deck was one of the last things to burn. ..."

*

We know Allie Kurtz, female crew, is the one crew the owner is referencing above. So the missing person is a passenger, and iirc a male since they have recovered all the female bodies.

If the back of the boat burned last, then the implication is that the fire origination point was not the engine, diesel fuel tanks, diving tanks or inboard diving reserves.

I wonder if the missing person simply flipped a light switch - his bunk light, a light to the bathroom area or stairs, or up in the galley - and that is the ignition spark on an overloaded circuit? Was he possibly electrocuted, fell, and that was the thump?

My best theory right now is too many electronics in a single outlet/circuit, spark + smoldering inside a wooden panel or wall containing electrical wiring, not unlike many house fires. The smoldering smoke filled the berthing from the wall before flames erupted to the galley. The missing person is the only one who made it perhaps to the stairs before falling from smoke inhalation.
 
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Shaz14 said:
Sooo many questions....

smoke inhalation can kill fast. When fire burns it removes the oxygen from the environment and replaces it with toxic fumes, especially when there is paint, fabric, plastics etc burning. It can render you unconscious well before the heat gets to you. If the toxic fumes were sucked down into the bunk area then they could have knocked everyone unconscious and then killed them. I don’t think it would be carbon monoxide but just a combination of toxic stuff. People die in house fires from smoke inhalation all the time, it’s effects are definitely fast.

ETA: I meant that I didn’t think it was carbon monoxide directly...such as from a gas leak. Carbon monoxide may have played a part in the toxic fumes though.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize how quickly it can kill. So in my mind then, it had to be a sudden enough and intense enough fire to create the quantity of smoke needed to incapacitate and kill that many people within minutes. Maybe a smoke detector went off, but it was already too late. I guess it could happen -- the boat and everything in it being highly flammable -- but it feels too sudden and without warning. There was no explosion, so it does IMO seem suggest some kind of accelerant or something that could cause it to flare up suddenly, at which point the air was forced downward. Someone has suggested the possibility that a special type of scuba tank was on board and its contents could accelerate a fire, so something like that seems like a possibility. Total amateur speculation by me, of course. I'm sure this is what the ATF is trying to figure out.
 
pentimento said:
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize how quickly it can kill. So in my mind then, it had to be a sudden enough and intense enough fire to create the quantity of smoke needed to incapacitate and kill that many people within minutes. Maybe a smoke detector went off, but it was already too late. I guess it could happen -- the boat and everything in it being highly flammable -- but it feels too sudden and without warning. There was no explosion, so it does IMO seem suggest some kind of accelerant or something that could cause it to flare up suddenly, at which point the air was forced downward. Someone has suggested the possibility that a special type of scuba tank was on board and its contents could accelerate a fire, so something like that seems like a possibility. Total amateur speculation by me, of course. I'm sure this is what the ATF is trying to figure out.
Click to expand...

I’m sure the ATF will find something out. As much as the owner is talking about the incident I suspect there are things that the authorities and/or his lawyers have told him not to discuss, which will come out eventually as the investigation progresses. I’m surprised that he has been allowed to talk with the press at all actually. He must feel really awful.
 
Shaz14 said:
This article was written by a British diver but I think it summarizes well what we know so far and he provides some additional information based on his personal experiences. He is trying to clear up some of the miscommunication by MSM.

Also, hi! I hope you don’t mind me jumping into your discussion. I have been following this story really closely and decided to see if there was a WS thread on it :)

Californian Dive Boat Fatal Fire
Click to expand...

This is an excellent, reasonable article. Thank you. I was glad to see that he agreed with my earlier post that the owner’s insurance company is likely the one filing the lawsuit that so many thought was “heartless.” This is a company with a long and excellent reputation among divers. There are no villains here. Just heartbroken people who are cooperating.

I’m sure some improvements in safety may come out of the investigation, but I still believe that a better escape hatch, night watchman or other safety precautions could not have prevented or saved passengers in this fast-moving catastrophic event.
JMO
 
pentimento said:
I think the thing that is the most perplexing to me is that the crew up top heard nothing until a thump and then the middle deck at least was fully engulfed at that point. If the passengers in the bunk had awoken to smoke, wouldn't they have yelled and made noise, and wouldn't the crew have been able to hear them?
Click to expand...

Smoke inhalation kills without waking you up. That's why smoke detectors became a default, required-by-law (at least they are where I live) thing everyone has to have. Way too many people dying in their sleep in house fires from smoke inhalation without ever knowing a thing.

As for the speed at which it happened, if it was from a charging device, and I think that seems like a reasonable proposition, fires caused by lithium battery malfunctions are like that. The Reason Lithium Batteries Catch Fire and Explode Li-ion batteries – a fire hazard | If

The possibility that they might have been charging devices in an unsafe manner concerns me. eg overloading double adapters or powerboards that didn't have any kind of surge protection.
 
Eloise said:
Smoke inhalation kills without waking you up. That's why smoke detectors became a default, required-by-law (at least they are where I live) thing everyone has to have. Way too many people dying in their sleep in house fires from smoke inhalation without ever knowing a thing.

As for the speed at which it happened, if it was from a charging device, and I think that seems like a reasonable proposition, fires caused by lithium battery malfunctions are like that. The Reason Lithium Batteries Catch Fire and Explode Li-ion batteries – a fire hazard | If

The possibility that they might have been charging devices in an unsafe manner concerns me. eg overloading double adapters or powerboards that didn't have any kind of surge protection.
Click to expand...

Actually you bring up an important point about surge protection. You actually shouldn’t use a surge protector on a boat, at least not one made for land-based use like a typical power bar, because it is a fire hazard. Power bars with surge protectors are actually banned on cruise ships for this reason.
 
Shaz14 said:
Actually you bring up an important point about surge protection. You actually shouldn’t use a surge protector on a boat, at least not one made for land-based use like a typical power bar, because it is a fire hazard. Power bars with surge protectors are actually banned on cruise ships for this reason.
Click to expand...


very interesting! thanks for the info
 
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