CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15

[bourne]

If foul play was involved in why Bob went missing, I think we should look for someone who feels entitled to Bob's money, who was in serious debt perhaps even to Bob, who has a predilection for manipulating people, who's used physical violence in the past, and who has a good understanding of the law regarding missing people and their estates. Someone who would know how and where to hide a body. Someone physically capable of lugging/carrying a body or who had an accomplice or knew how to get help to do so. JMO

 

[Opie]

If foul play was involved in why Bob went missing, I think we should look for someone who feels entitled to Bob's money, who was in serious debt perhaps even to Bob, who has a predilection for manipulating people, who's used physical violence in the past, and who has a good understanding of the law regarding missing people and their estates. Someone who would know how and where to hide a body. Someone physically capable of lugging/carrying a body or who had an accomplice or knew how to get help to do so. JMO

Well, there seem to be a number of people who felt entitled to the $$, but the rest of your post would serve to eliminate a few folks, again IMO.

 

[TDW59]

Bourne,
There is an incredible and vast amount of information in the threads.

The ID program is not the definitive source, indeed it does contain errors, i.e.
JeM reported that he saw a black vehicle drive slowly up and down the street, the program shows a white SUV.

 

[SuziQ]

I'm just joining this discussion after watching the "Disappeared" episode on Bob. Which I found very informative, and an excellent source for getting to know the "players" and their personalities.

One concern I have, and I'm not accusing Fontelle in any way, is that it really isn't typical for a couple to be asked if they want to marry right then- immediately after receiving the license. Has this been discussed? Sorry for coming in late!

Thank you to those who are transcribing and sticking it out for Bob!

It is typical. In addition to the license, you need someone qualified to perform a marriage ceremony to make the license valid and the marriage legal. Just getting a license does not make you married. Most people don't know this. And it sounds like Bob and Fontelle did not either. If you are not using a priest or other qualified person, you use a judge. Judges are usually in the same location as a marriage license office. The clerk in this case was merely clarifying who was going to perform the marriage ceremony.

 

[Cubby]

LE released information via the disappeared show by way of their own taped interview. I don't consider Detective Radomski or Detective Loomis's recorded words mistakes. They were carefully planned and approved or the show would not have aired.

Early on in EVERY missing persons case MSM reveals some misinformation. Facts get cleared and early information get's dismissed.

It is no mistake that Bob's daughters posted ugly things about Bob all over the internet.
It is no mistake they gave conflicting information by way of their interviews for Disappeared and in trial.
It is no mistake LE was given various contradicting times Bob disappeared.

It is also no mistake JeM does not have a reciept or an alibi for the late morning during the time in which Bob went missing.

Listen carefully to what LE is saying.

 

[Cubby]

I find this argument about the disappeared taping being outdated because it was taped just over a year ago.

Seriously? The misinformation about the time Bob disappeared is almost 4 years old and hasn't been cleared up.

 

[zwiebel]

I'm just joining this discussion after watching the "Disappeared" episode on Bob. Which I found very informative, and an excellent source for getting to know the "players" and their personalities.

One concern I have, and I'm not accusing Fontelle in any way, is that it really isn't typical for a couple to be asked if they want to marry right then- immediately after receiving the license. Has this been discussed? Sorry for coming in late!

Thank you to those who are transcribing and sticking it out for Bob!

Welcome, dillysmom11! Glad you got to see the episode.

I think you are most probably right, an immediate marriage isn't typical. Certainly, Bob and Fontelle weren't aware it could be done.

Purely my own personal opinion.....but if I were a registrar and saw an elderly, happy, excited couple come into my office to book a wedding, and they happened to mention they'd been reunited after 60 years, and I was helping them go through all the paperwork - and I'd seen a gazillion younger couples go through all the stress and fuss of the pre-booked wedding, and I could see this couple were definitely not bothered about all the bells and whistles;

I'd tell them they could get wed straight away, without any more fuss. Not only to save them any bother, but just to see the delight on their faces - and make sure I didn't miss the special event myself!

 

[Cubby]

Welcome to WS ELB!

:welcome:

My gut feeling is if Bob had not married he would not have 'disappeared'. I say that because at age 81 the $$$$ was within sight for those salivating to get their hands on it. A new wife who is 5-6 years younger than Bob pushes back the expected time to receive the money.

Plus we have to consider Bob and Fontelle would likely have travelled at least between MO and CA. They probably would have had Fontelle's family come visit. They may have done some traveling themselves.... All things that cost far more money than staying home and caring for an ill spouse for several years. No disrespect intended towards Georgia. Just pointing out staying home costs less....

 

[zwiebel]

It is typical. In addition to the license, you need someone qualified to perform a marriage ceremony to make the license valid and the marriage legal. Just getting a license does not make you married. Most people don't know this. And it sounds like Bob and Fontelle did not either. If you are not using a priest or other qualified person, you use a judge. Judges are usually in the same location as a marriage license office. The clerk in this case was merely clarifying who was going to perform the marriage ceremony.

I didn't see your answer there! It's completely different from England - I had no idea. Please ignore my post above, everyone.

 

[Orgona]

Bourne,
There is an incredible and vast amount of information in the threads.

The ID program is not the definitive source, indeed it does contain errors, i.e.
JeM reported that he saw a black vehicle drive slowly up and down the street, the program shows a white SUV.

I think there could be a very good explanation for that "mistake".
If an eyewitness came forward after the show saying he/she too saw a suspicious vehicle near Bob's house, but it was black, that statement could be used to verify the info given by the SIL.
If they used black SUV on the show, then that testimony could be a false memory planted by watching the show. IMO

 

[tamild]

I've been spending the last several days going over this whole trust business, trying to understand what the situation actually is. I *think* I get it, but I'd like someone to check me, please.

Bob and Georgia had a living trust, which was divided sometime after Georgia's death. This was likely divided into trust A and trust B. Trust B would contain no more than the maximum estate exemption, which at the time would have been $2,000,000. We don't know which assets are included in that $2,000,000, but it's quite likely that it's real estate. This trust would be irrevocable, however, Bob would receive any income generated by this trust such as dividends, interest, etc. Bob would have to provide an accounting of this trust. Trust A would be revocable trust, could hold a value far higher than trust B, and would be handled completely within Bob's discretion. In other words, he could add beneficiaries or even give it all away. He would not have to account to anyone about this trust. Do I have this right?

 

[Seajay]

Back to the house AH bought back in 1999. Looks like he bought it for $290K, then as the equity built up in it, he kept refinancing it over and over again, which would be why he states that he paid BH off on that loan. He appears to have borrrowed on the house so often as the equity rose, that he got in way over his head and ended up owing $700K on it. He probably was paying outrageous interest on it as well and Countrywide was closing in on him, so he went to dear ol` grandpa and asked him to buy out his loans and mortgages, only having to pay gramps.

The means AH could not live within his means and was always buying expensive stuff he couldn't afford. I knew someone exactly like this. Every few years she refinanced her house to get more money out of it until she could no longer afford the payments. Only in this case, her father refused to come to the rescue and she lost the house.

 

[Seajay]

The way I see the whole marriage thing going down is, Fontelle and Bob went to the county courthouse to get a marriage license. They tell their story to the clerk who is issuing the license. She/he suggests that they don't have to wait any longer and tells them that they can get married NOW. They think that's a great idea so they do so. Nothing nefarious about that.

I live and got married in Southern California, and I believe that the waiting period for some couples is waivered. What I remember is that if a couple were already living together, they didn't have a waiting period. Also, a couple of great age didn't have a waiting period. I think the waiting period was to give young couple who may be acting on the spur of the moment a cooling off period to rethink their decision to marry. I remember when I got my marriage license, there was a waiting period. JMO, MOO, IMO and all that good stuff.

 

[TDW59]

DEPOSITION OF ANDREW ROBERT HARROD PART 6


MR ALGORRI: It's a public record. I'm not an Internet lawyer. I'm here to try to see what happened to trust assets.
MS KEMP: Well, we're saying the settlement agreement is not a public record. And I -- at this point we don't -- we want to take precautions that it not become a public record.
MR ALGORRI: Get up to speed. It's filed within the court.
MS KEMP: I don't think it has been.
BY MR ALGORRI:
Q: As you sit here today, are you unaware of any terms of settlement with regard to the reconveyance of the property back to the Harrod trust?
A: I am aware of the terms.
Q: Okay. And I take it on the advice of counsel, you're not here to discuss any of those terms of the settlement because of advice of your counsel; is that correct?
MS KEMP: As I've indicated, the document speaks for itself. And if you want him to -- he doesn't have -- it's not fair for you to ask him legal opinions and matters of legal import. The settlement agreement will be made available to you.
]MR ALGORRI: Okay. But we're here for deposition. We're entitled to hear what he knows about the terms of the settlement. That goes to what the assets of the trust are. That's why this whole proceeding is here. So you're not going to allow him to answer any questions regarding what the terms of the settlement were with the reconveyance of the property back to the trust; am I correct?
MS KEMP: I don't think that he's qualified, and it's not appropriate in a depositition to ask for his opinion on legal matters.
MR ALGORRI: Okay. We're not here to ask for a legal opinion. Let me ask it this way.
BY MR ALGORRI:
Q: Did you pay a sum of money in addition to re-conveying the property in settlement of the reconveyance of the house back to the Harrod Family Trust?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What was that sum of money?
MS KEMP: I would request, again, that because it's a confidential settlement document, that we treat it with confidentiality. And that if you are representing to me at this time that everything in this deposition will remain confidential, then we'd be happy to discuss these things.
MR ALGORRI: This is the United States of America. This is a public proceeding. This isn't a communist country. You know, unless there's some kind of protective order brought on your part, I'm entitled to an answer. And if you're going to instruct him not to answer, then we'll take it up at my ex parte to shorten time on September 1 in Department L73 where we'll move to compel further answers to this and just go around and around. I'm not here to try and browbeat you. My job is to find out what happened to the money. What happened to the houses and what were the terms. There's no magic here. Maybe you can enlighten me further. You know, I'm willing to discuss this on the record, if you like; otherwise I'm entitled to an answer.
MS KEMP: Well, I'm entitled to an answer from you. Is it your intention to --
MR ALGORRI: I'm taking a deposition.
MS KEMP: -- make all this public?
MR ALGORRI: No, no. I'm not being deposed. He's the deponent with percipient knowledge of a lot of facts that we all need answers to including Ms. Srivastav who's here.

 

[TDW59]

Back to the house AH bought back in 1999. Looks like he bought it for $290K, then as the equity built up in it, he kept refinancing it over and over again, which would be why he states that he paid BH off on that loan. He appears to have borrrowed on the house so often as the equity rose, that he got in way over his head and ended up owing $700K on it. He probably was paying outrageous interest on it as well and Countrywide was closing in on him, so he went to dear ol` grandpa and asked him to buy out his loans and mortgages, only having to pay gramps.

The means AH could not live within his means and was always buying expensive stuff he couldn't afford. I knew someone exactly like this. Every few years she refinanced her house to get more money out of it until she could no longer afford the payments. Only in this case, her father refused to come to the rescue and she lost the house.

It makes me ever more curious about the settlement agreement...how could he make himself look worse than this???

 

[deca]

Not that this matters much, but I got married in LA County.
So what you do is go down to the Registrar's Office and bring your documents and your soon to be spouse. You stand in line at window "A" to get your license, wait your turn, fill out your paperwork etc. Now, if you want to get MARRIED, after you get your license, you go over to window "B". If they have time, the judge will marry you (you usually have to make an appt).

Fun aside: So after getting our license, they handed us a "gift"- some promotional stuff like little packs of laundry detergent and a pack of coupons and the best coffee measuring spoon ever. Still in use after more than a decade.

 

[bourne]

Well, there seem to be a number of people who felt entitled to the $$, but the rest of your post would serve to eliminate a few folks, again IMO.

The profile of the possible perp(s) I wrote is only for used as a preliminary starting guideline. As you say, we can definitely eliminate a few POIs from that.

Who is/are on your suspect list and why?

 

[bourne]

I've read this deposition between AH and Fontelle's lawyer several times now. The only thing I can see of significance here is that AH has money issues and that Bob appeared to have helped him out financially a few times and that AH did not intend on repaying the rest of his loan to Bob because he assumed Bob is deceased and that the debt ceased upon Bob's death.

To me, AH's presumption that Bob is deceased rather than simply "missing" and will be found alive suggests that AH might know something we don't. To be blunt, AH might have been involved in Bob's death or has knowledge that he is dead via some unnamed source...Of course, this is only speculation.

Another reason AH is so quick to assume Bob is deceased may simply be that AH doesn't have the funds to pay Bob back so it's convenient for him to jump to the conclusion that Bob has passed.

Is there anything else in this deposition that is of worthy notice?

Also, are there other depositions out there involving the POIs* (Bob's family, Fontelle, Josie, Agnes, Bob's friends, etc.) in this case and can someone be kind enough to post links to those? I don't have the time to peruse/cull through 1000s pages worth of posts (as insightful as they might be) in this forum and would prefer to spend time reviewing MSM articles, court documents and LE/ME reports. TIA

*NOTE: When I use the term "POI", person of interest, I'm not necessarily referring to "suspects", but merely to all people whom Bob was close to or people whom Bob knew, and also perps who may be involved in Bob's disappearance.

 

[deca]

Wow this thread is moving fast. The newer poster that mentioned someone might have offered to take Bob to the banks might have something. Forgive me for asking: was AH's locations that morning confirmed?

Second question: besides Bob's kids, where there any other relatives anticipating money?

Lastly: from the previous page: AH getting only $10k. In my family and in many of my friend's families- grandkids get token amounts. A nice piece of jewelry or a little cash. Sometimes NOTHING. Not because grandpa didn't love them- but because there is this idea that the kids get the money and when the kids die, the grandkids will then get it.

 

[bourne]

Bourne,
There is an incredible and vast amount of information in the threads.

The ID program is not the definitive source, indeed it does contain errors, i.e.
JeM reported that he saw a black vehicle drive slowly up and down the street, the program shows a white SUV.

I didn't say the Disappeared episode was a definitive source, I said it was ONE source and a valid one. I would assume the episode was reviewed with LE thoroughly in order to gain their approval/edit misinformation that was readily available at the time prior to broadcast before being officially shown in the US and Australia.

This is in the About page for Disappeared program (B&UBM):
"Disappeared is an exciting series that investigates the disappearance of these victims, who are here one minute, gone the next. Each episode focuses on one victim's story, as told through the perspectives and actual voices of their closest friends and family and the investigators trying to solve the case.

Through interviews with family, friends, police, and searchers, each episode recounts the actions, thoughts, circumstances and motivations that led to each person's disappearance."

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv-shows/disappeared/about-this-show/about-disappeared.htm